Something wrong with flight dynamics.

[Focha]

No opinion so far since I only have the beta (v1.5) at the moment, but I've seen comments by alleged RL helo pilots who think the FM is actually very good for a light and agile turbine chopper. Make of that what you will, but I'll just mention it here regardless ;) Anyway, going to test next Friday if/when the patch for v1.5 comes out...

 

Ok, thank you for your comment.

 

I fly the AS350 B2 and also B3 (2B and 2B1) with a couple hundred hours of experience in type, we all agree that is a light turbine helicopter, and in some maneuvers that I've tried with the Gazelle, it does not react like it nor like other smaller and bigger helicopters that I have flown and in those maneuvers, all react the same, regardless of artificially assisted flight or not. That is only talking about conventional helicopters (1 main + 1 tail, rotor).

 

Also, I am not saying that it does not behave like a small turbine helicopter should behave, what I said was that in some maneuvers, based on my RL experience, it does not respond like it should be expected.

 

If I had to guess, I would say that is 10% of the FM that is off a little bit. Again based in how conventional helicopters normally fly.

 

But again, I have never flown a Gazelle before, and Polychop is currently working with real life Gazelle pilots, which they have experience to talk about.

 

Don't make this thread a "it's all wrong with the module" one. It is not and I am sure it is pretty close to what the machine should do.

 

Regards.

[0xDEADBEEF]

Guys, please don't go OT.

 

If you guys don't mind, before giving your opinion I would like to know what are your background (eg. Real life experience, either flight or commercial simulators, etc) and in what you based your opinion on this matter.

 

Fair point. I've flown a couple of 100 hrs in x-plane (As350, Bell 407, BK117, R22, ...) and another couple of hundred hours UH-1 in DCS. I also got to fly about 3.5hrs in real choppers (Bo105: one takeoff and landing including traffic pattern and taxi and 3hrs R66 cruise plus 2 landings, all without Pilot help or touching controls, to my own surprise) and was very amazed how well my simulator experience translated into the real thing. I'm about as much surprised and confused that currently this experience does not translate to the Gazelle at all (except for the sensitivity, which is nothing I would complain about).

:joystick:

 

I would also like to state once again that i am aware it is Beta and I think it is fine that the FM is not finished and lacking realism. I only find it awkward that it isn't communicated at all and many people claim they think its great.

 

Also in case it turns out I am wrong and that the current flightmodel is perfectly realistic along with an explanation of why the Gazelle flies so much different than any other chopper I will be happy to apologize.

 

 

BTW Focha, did you notice that in level flight, if you drop the collective whatever amount you find appropriate, the nose attitude stays exactly the same. Only the vertical speed would change. I'm having a hard to believe this is realistic. To my knowledge this is one of the fundamentals of flight (pitch vs power).

Edited May 2, 2016 by 0xDEADBEEF

[Pat01]

Hi gents

 

Please use the report bugs thread.

Some more effort will be needed from you for us to be able to recreate bugs and fix them, a track would be awesome, and the description about how to reproduce.

 

In advance I thank you very much.

 

EDIT: a list of your controler devices and the way you set them may be handy for us too.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Pat01

[Deezle]

After several hours and a bit of control tweaking, I'm finding the Gaz to fly pretty believably and I have pretty good control over her. If you jump in it like I did expecting it to handle like a Huey, you're going to have a rough time.

 

That said, I find it odd that it doesn't like to pull out of dives like the other DCS helos will, not saying it's wrong, but it sure feels wrong. I also expected it to be a bit faster, especially with a light load of fuel and no missiles, of course the hard points and the big camera probably make it slower than the cruise figures (264 kmh IIRC) you'll typically find online.

 

Overall I'm quite impressed by this first release from Polychop

Edited May 2, 2016 by Deezle

[some1]

BTW Focha, did you notice that in level flight, if you drop the collective whatever amount you find appropriate, the nose attitude stays exactly the same. Only the vertical speed would change. I'm having a hard to believe this is realistic. To my knowledge this is one of the fundamentals of flight (pitch vs power).

 

You don't even need to touch the joystick to fly and land this thing. Just a bit of rudder and you can fly anywhere, then rotate 180 degrees and wait to slow down. Autopilot on or off, doesn't make a difference.

I posted a track in the bugs thread.

Edited May 2, 2016 by some1

[HawkDCS]

Ya I feel like the SAS keeps you from turning. It seems overkill.

[exil]

Focha,

 

I also recognized it. I also have a couple of hundred hours in the EC135 and some in the EC-120. The FM is awesome and pretty realistic i guess (haven't flown the Gazelle in RL) except for turns. If you turn you just nose-dive to the ground even without a great amount of bank. And if you try to counter the nose-dive behavior with applying aft cyclic you're loosing an big amount of airspeed.

 

I'm might upload a track and maybe a youtube video to better understand what i'm up to as soon as i can identify and describe the "problem" a bit better.

 

Other than that, it's an wonderful a/c. And for those of you reading this and thinking wether to buy it or not: Buy it!!! It's still great fun and an absolutly high detailed helicopter! Hovering and powermanagement is so close to real life! And i'm sure polychop may retweak the FM a bit (not much).

[Frank00]

Hi gents

 

Please use the report bugs thread.

Some more effort will be needed from you for us to be able to recreate bugs and fix them, a track would be awesome, and the description about how to reproduce.

 

In advance I thank you very much.

 

EDIT: a list of your controler devices and the way you set them may be handy for us too.

 

For my part I use the proflight trainer first version http://www.fsheli.ch/images/pftevo_480.jpg

[Frank00]

[ame=

]

[/ame]

 

Here is a video who's clearly showing that you don't need to push the rudder pedal to full right

[Pocket Sized]

At the moment the safest way to fly this helo is to assume zero translational lift. Think rocket engine.

 

That is, it feels like there's only one thrust vector. The fastest way to pull out of a dive is to level yourself and yank the collective (unless you're in VRS).

[The M]

It´s funny how the flight model can be so different for everyone

[Drakoz]

exil, yes, that is very much what I am seeing too. I finally found a happy spot with holding a little bit of cyclic to the side in a turn, and I was able to pull back and complete turns in a way that felt normal (i.e. I was making good flat level turns), but it was a balancing act. I had to focus a lot on keeping the thing on the knife's edge (cyclic just right) or it would either turn back to level, or nose in toward the ground too easily. This is a pretty severe instability. It's manageable, but I hope the real Gazelle isn't like that.

 

I read up more on the SAS (on the real Gazelle). The manual for the DCS Gazelle does not explain it. I was trying to figure out exactly what the real SAS does (how it works and to what degree), and if it can be disabled (turn off auto pilot functions?) I haven't had a chance to play with this more however in DCS.

 

 

 

I also noticed the issue mentioned where during a slow lift off, the DCS Gazelle wants to slide forward, requiring a significant amount of back cyclic, but as soon as you break free from the ground, you nearly smash your tail into the tarmac due to the significant back cyclic. This is probably a bug.

 

 

 

My background, (since Focha asked) is I'm not a helicopter pilot, but started my training to become one. I regularly fly RC helicopters too. I am also a motorcycle racer and motorcycle instructor (teaching at the track for 15 years now). What does that have to do with helicopters? A lot. Flying a helicopter and riding a motorcycle are two different things, but the process by which you learn to do both is very similar. Since I spend a lot of time teaching people how to ride (and race), I understand well the human aspect of controlling a machine, as well as getting people to overcome obstacles and fears to make that machine do difficult things.

 

What does this have to do with anything? It just means I understand the many ways people feel about a machine and why. I often see even an experienced rider hop on a bike they aren't familiar with and not get comfortable with the feel of the bike. That's not making any comment about your comments that started this thread. Just an interesting observation in general that many people are comparing DCS Gazelle to other DCS helicopter modules, and that isn't entirely reasonable until people have spent enough time to get comfortable with the DCS Gazelle. DCS Gazelle felt really wrong to me at first. I took the time to figure it out. Now I understand where some things still feel wrong, and where some things were just me not being used to it. How much of that is correct vs. the real Gazelle, of course I have no idea. Regardless, your comments were some of the first I read that matched what I finally saw after I got used to the DCS Gazelle.

 

It´s funny how the flight model can be so different for everyone

 

And as I was posting my message above, "The M" said this. Yes, exactly. :)

 

Regards,

Michael

[YoYo]

I think FM must be tune up, especially at low speed. Its to hard to compare in DCS to other helo, but FM must be more similar to UH-1. Now it looks like for Ka-50 but with all autopilot off (SAS) ;) .

 

 

Here is a video who's clearly showing that you don't need to push the rudder pedal to full right

 

Nice found. She is very stable, mine is crazy (tested from hot start, not from C&D).

Edited May 2, 2016 by YoYo

[decipher]

There is a demo. You get the whole DCS World for free and then the Su-25T and the P-51 trainer, again for free. That is more than enough for one to decide whether this simulation is worth the money. What more could one ask for?

 

i don't want to derail the discussion but at least answer to this.

i own several dcs modules and love flying them, but that will not help me in any way to decide if a new module (by a completely new development team) is worth buying. there is at least one module, that i would not have bought, if i could have tested a demo version of it first.

 

nonetheless i have high hopes for polychop, especially because i want the bo-105 to be good... growing up in germany in the 80's the 105 was a common sight in the sky and always my favorite.

[Focha]

i don't want to derail the discussion but at least answer to this.

i own several dcs modules and love flying them, but that will not help me in any way to decide if a new module (by a completely new development team) is worth buying. there is at least one module, that i would not have bought, if i could have tested a demo version of it first.

 

nonetheless i have high hopes for polychop, especially because i want the bo-105 to be good... growing up in germany in the 80's the 105 was a common sight in the sky and always my favorite.

 

Easy. Wait for more reviews when the product is finish, then make up your mind. Until that moment, you have a early access model or/and a beta product, with that comes a lot of things that needs to be fixed like any other product in beta.

[Focha]

At the moment the safest way to fly this helo is to assume zero translational lift. Think rocket engine.

 

That is, it feels like there's only one thrust vector. The fastest way to pull out of a dive is to level yourself and yank the collective (unless you're in VRS).

 

+1, I feel like this too... Maybe there is something with the lift vector. Because in a recuperation maneuver from a 30º dive, unless you level off or rise the nose above horizon, this helicopter will not climb, that and also 80 to 90% torque. Most of the times I do not anticipate this fully and hit hard with the skids or else with the tail and boom!

 

Also, sometimes I feel like the response from the collective is somewhat delayed...

[gospadin]

+1, I feel like this too... Maybe there is something with the lift vector. Because in a recuperation maneuver from a 30º dive, unless you level off or rise the nose above horizon, this helicopter will not climb, that and also 80 to 90% torque. Most of the times I do not anticipate this fully and hit hard with the skids or else with the tail and boom!

 

Also, sometimes I feel like the response from the collective is somewhat delayed...

 

This is an interesting observation about the nose pitch and the forces of the rotor disc appearing symmetric. It would explain the lack of blowback felt, and a few other things. When I apply more collective, and speed increases, I expect to have to push the stick more forward.

 

RE: collective, abrupt changes in collective don't seem to affect engine output, as if there's no back torque applied to the engine by the additional blade drag/force.

 

Additionally, in all other helos, when you hover, you need to apply some side cyclic, to counter the lateral thrust of the tail rotor. The amount of side cyclic input that the gazelle needs is almost zero, which is odd because of both the weight of the helo and the amount of rudder input needed to hover. With that much rudder countering the rotation force, I'd expect to need more side cyclic.

[jpdesvals]

+1Focha again ,

 

As a PPLH i fly r 22 almost and one time a hugues 500 and 206 ..

 

Flight dynamics :

 

-the great difficulty to do a coordonate level flight turn( even under 30 degree bank angle ) almost like if it was an head lock rc helicopter(my feeling) .. and no nose down when you pull down the collective ..even a little tendency :) .

 

the need of the collective rather than or in conjuction with cyclic to avoid collision with the ground at cruise speed after a dive and the sensation to have an enormous inertia when changing from a dive to level flight .

 

 

 

It is like there was a native very powerfull SAS ( even if you turn AP off ).

 

Waiting for the flight model to be tune i am shure that there will be many improvement after all this is a beta version !

 

The ambiance , the sound are awsome !!! and it just need a leetle something to be perfect !

 

A little videao talks better than every thing : just watch how light she seems to be ( ok one pilot only but ) not as stable as in the sim !Poor quality but interesting

[ame]

[/ame]

[docWilly]

I have no RL experience on the stick (though fixed wing flyer) but watched several Gazelle videos and it seems that the To technique is on most of them kinda "jump" in the air (other than on the huey - have been on UH1 for 12 years in the backseats). Straight up and counteract with stick to stop forward moving. My finding is: TO seems to be quite correct in DCS.

 

What is mentioned in the post above....+1...it seems there´s some finetuning necessary.

-the great difficulty to do a coordonate level flight turn( even under 30 degree bank angle ) almost like if it was an head lock rc helicopter(my feeling) .. and no nose down when you pull down the collective ..even a little tendency .

 

the need of the collective rather than or in conjuction with cyclic to avoid collision with the ground at cruise speed after a dive and the sensation to have an enormous inertia when changing from a dive to level flight .

 

But over all: I love it - though still flying with "easy controls"

Well done Polychop!!

[Hovbac]

I have no RL experience on the stick (though fixed wing flyer) but watched several Gazelle videos and it seems that the To technique is on most of them kinda "jump" in the air (other than on the huey - have been on UH1 for 12 years in the backseats). Straight up and counteract with stick to stop forward moving. My finding is: TO seems to be quite correct in DCS.

 

What is mentioned in the post above....+1...it seems there´s some finetuning necessary.

 

 

But over all: I love it - though still flying with "easy controls"

Well done Polychop!!

 

I have some experience in RL helicopters (AS350, R22) and I have to say, there is no need to 'jump off' a helicopter, espetially in smooth air conditions. As you can see in the enclosed video (1:59) the lift off is performed smoothly with left skid first, which is typical for right turning systems. So no need to 'jump off'. I also beleive that there is something wrong with the Polychop FM. [ame]

[/ame]
Edited May 3, 2016 by Hovbac

[Johnny Dioxin]

edit - deleted - I'm not getting involved :)

[jpdesvals]

OK after fixing the force feedback pb i had ( no more centering or FFb effects ) with a little sofware called "simFFB" flying one hour with my extended sidewinder FFB (trimer works !!) i must admit the i have a great feeling !! almost in love ;) ...

 

This little sofware saved my life and for thoses who need this here is the link to the post and the file : http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1628706&postcount=43

 

Thanks polyshop !

[Focha]

I have no RL experience on the stick (though fixed wing flyer) but watched several Gazelle videos and it seems that the To technique is on most of them kinda "jump" in the air (other than on the huey - have been on UH1 for 12 years in the backseats). Straight up and counteract with stick to stop forward moving. My finding is: TO seems to be quite correct in DCS.

 

What is mentioned in the post above....+1...it seems there´s some finetuning necessary.

 

 

But over all: I love it - though still flying with "easy controls"

Well done Polychop!!

One thing that all my flight instructors always told me... Never, never out of dust conditions takeoff quickly with a helicopter. All kind of problems arise from that, from rollover to lack of precision flight. The only time you jump to the air, is in the case where you are absolutely sure the skids are free and you belive will encounter dust conditions (brown/whiteout), and even in those cases you must pay great attention to the limits of the machine.

 

With the FM right as it is:

- Takeoff with both skids parallel to the ground;

- No blowback effect;

- Funny behaviour during turns, sometimes it seems the vertical fin has effectiveness, others it seems it doesn't.

- Attitude of fuselage and rotor, seems the same, great loss of lift during turns or dive recuperations;

- Collective response seems slow;

- Lots of vibration during hover, please ask maintenance to balance the blades! I'm sure the helicopter vibrates a lot, specially during the flight transitions. Seems a little overdone in hover situation.

 

I'm sure there are more things I encounter with this helicopter. Some tunning and this will be a great helicopter module!

 

Continue the great work.

[docWilly]

Guys,

I did not mean "jump" in the air like a rocket but more lift of a bit less gentle than in a Huey and then counteract the forward movement with the stick if you want to TO with both skids simultaneously.

 

BUT...I played a bit with my joystick´s curves and saturation...and voilá...I am able to lift her over the skids (left or right), just gentle and NO forward slipping nor jumping. Think I found the sweet spot for my stick (TM Warthog) for the existing gazelle FM.

Adjusting the curves helps also a lot with coordinated turns.

 

Let´s keep on with this beautiful DCS helo...well worth having it.

Willy

[Rongor]

BUT...I played a bit with my joystick´s curves and saturation...and voilá...I am able to lift her over the skids (left or right), just gentle and NO forward slipping nor jumping. Think I found the sweet spot for my stick (TM Warthog) for the existing gazelle FM.

Adjusting the curves helps also a lot with coordinated turns.

Report your TM Warthog curves and saturation instantly! So that I have something to chew on...:joystick: Thanks!:thumbup: