Why the Secrecy?

[CrazyPandaPilot]

First off, I am in no way mad or discouraged by ANY of the DCS developers, I love this Sim and All the Modules are an 11/10 in my opinion.

 

This probably has been answered before but, Maybe we can start a small discussion on this. As the title says, Why the secrecy? What I mean by that is, Not giving much info at all to the community on upcoming modules. I, as many other members would, would like to see at least a monthly progress update on what the status of the module is. Obviously some devs are better than others on this but most devs are quite silent.

 

The main issue isn't knowing when the exact date of release is, It's more just to know if the project is alive. For example, I saw a few screenshots from a Live Stream with The F/A-18 and they looked very good, but that was last year, and I understand It takes time but at least an update every 1-3 months would be great. I think maybe devs should be encouraged to give us slightly more information then what we are getting. Anyways, Sorry for the long rant, Give me your thoughts!

 

Again, I'm not mad just wondering why Devs like to be so secret. Or maybe I've been missing a thread with all the information.

[HiJack]

https://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=105

[Aginor]

As for the dates:

ED (and not only ED) has become that inaccurate with release dates (modules delayed for years without a good explanation, for one reason or another, doesn't really matter) that it became a running gag among some people. So they stopped giving dates alltogether.

 

As for the updates:

There were regular updates either promised or given by several third parties and ED at some point, but most of them stopped giving. There are a few problems with giving updates:

1. say something people like and the hype train starts with unrealistic expections. Disappointment follows, like "THIS WAS A PROMISED FEATURE! LIARS!!!"

2. say something not cool and the hate train starts

3. say too much and you might be promising something you can't deliver

4. say too little and people demand you say more

5. Have a fixed date for updates and people start yelling at you when you miss or delay one. "WHERE IS MY UPDATE!!!???"

 

EDIT:

I forgot mentioning "saying nothing". Some people constantly ask whether you are still alive (rightly so, we have seen 3rd parties vanishing), others claim to know you are dead. Either one is not good publicity.

 

I personally prefer a "We are still on it, nothing cool to show though" once a month over the silence that we experience most of the time. It is a pity that people in the community reacted like a-holes to the cool updates we got.

 

Oh, and just two examples: Razbam and Polychop do communicate quite well in my opinion.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Aginor

[QuiGon]

This community (or some members of this community to be more precise) often overacts on announcements as Aginor already explained. That's why the devs became more reluctant to share everything.

[gavagai]

They did give news about the F/A-18 just a few weeks ago. They said they had nothing new to show because all of the work right now is on stuff that is not visible.

[probad]

they can make your sandwiches in front of you at a subway but not every restaurant has to be a subway.

 

asking for more news isn't going to get the module into our hands any faster so give it a rest.

[Pikey]

There's a cracking example of two people that dug up the year ago update from LNS on F-14 and threw that in their face right now in today's posts. Now, given that when that statement was made, the very intelligent person believed it to be true, you get an idea how software development is. So when people dig this up and whack them about the head with it, the result is they stop posting dates. Pretty natural turn of events. So it's not secrecy, they just like to not disappoint and deal with forums calling them all sorts of names.

[Cibit]

And all the crap VEAO had to put up with inregards the quality of texturing in the cockpits. It got really nasty and if it had been my work being spoken about like that I would have spat my dummy out. Many of the 3rd parties have other methods of communication, like websites and facebook pages. I do though feel we get more information than is true with other software developers

[The Black Swan]

Guys, he said he understood the dates thing. He was more talking about the updates on development. I respect ED too, but at times I think it gets too quiet. I understand some of the points here about not saying features early on to prevent disappointment, but with WIP and "everything is subject to change" constantly being thrown out I would think they could share more.

ED has every right to run their business the way they want to. But the recent hornet update was the first we had gotten since January. And that's in the year that they were supposed to be getting really close to early access. I think it would be nice to see more info coming out... But that's just my 2 cents.

[rrohde]

Nothing is stopping ED from showing the occasional video where the DCS F-18 is being flown by Wags, or the DCS Spitfire doing touch-n-goes over Normandy... just sayin'...

[Glowing_Amraam]

Nothing is stopping ED from showing the occasional video where the DCS F-18 is being flown by Wags, or the DCS Spitfire doing touch-n-goes over Normandy... just sayin'...

 

But that kind of ruins the whole "surprise reveal" stuff, right? :music_whistling::pilotfly:

[Strelok]

Well I would say that progress updates and so on... are trend of many early access games to prove that developers are actually working on the software and I am pretty sure that ED have no needs to do that. We have Silver_Dragons unofficial roadmap that seem to be mostly pretty accurate and actual (thanks to him for that... :D) and still ED can suprise with some new features/modules. They are providing regular updates and bugfixes with new features and sometimes even some hints for what we can expect... and we all love DCS rumors...

 

#DCSF16BYED/BELSIMTEKISREAL... :music_whistling:

[CrazyPandaPilot]

A lot of what you guys are saying makes total sense, I do see that many people will over react with the wrong adjective being used to describe something and I do see how many people do not like getting release dates.

 

My opinion on release dates: I would like an estimation but i know many people will complain as soon as the month it was said to be early access passes. If I was a dev I wouldnt want to get spammed with 3000 messages all crying "Where is my Module" So Release dates are a bad idea.

 

One Idea I have is just making a public checklist for Items that need to be accomplished, So that the community does not need to ask Devs.

[rrohde]

But that kind of ruins the whole "surprise reveal" stuff, right? :music_whistling::pilotfly:

 

I personally don't like surprises; I rather build up excitement by getting spoonfed little nuggets of videos and screenshots consistently over time - until release day! :)

[Buzzles]

As Aginor said, we used to get them, but people can't understand/won't understand the notion of "work in progress", plus were hypercritical and it used to get toxic. It's not nice being on the recieving end of that.

 

Can't blame the devs for actually carrying through with their warning to the community that if they kept up toxic behavour then the updates would stop.

[cichlidfan]

I look at it this way.

 

I am a avid reader, and have been for the past 50+ years. I cannot recall a single instance where an author gave advanced notice of what they were currently writing, or about to publish. Amazon has changed that paradigm a bit with the ability to pre-order books, but, otherwise, little has changed.

 

I enjoy being surprised by new things and really don't care if the devs don't wish to provide updates and such, regardless of the reasons.

 

Besides, in the case of DCS, there are so many variables at play that even the folks doing the work don't always know how things will play out.

[probad]

One Idea I have is just making a public checklist for Items that need to be accomplished, So that the community does not need to ask Devs.

 

oh joy, more ideas. the community already cannot be relied upon to read existing topics. at best we have people making new threads just to ask what the latest news was and at worst we have people going ballistic alleging devs haven't updated at all. people just don't act as smartly or nicely in reality as you like to imagine them in your head.

 

taking a step back i'm not saying it's a bad idea. it can be done. nothing bad's gonna happen, but it's not going to solve anything either.

this "issue" can't be solved by devs because it's not a dev issue. it's an audience issue, it lies in the fact that some people are so addicted to the ubiquitous content mill dripfeed format that if one day goes by without something new being fed to them they think the sky is falling.

Edited September 16, 2016 by probad

[CrazyPandaPilot]

I look at it this way.

 

I am a avid reader, and have been for the past 50+ years. I cannot recall a single instance where an author gave advanced notice of what they were currently writing, or about to publish. Amazon has changed that paradigm a bit with the ability to pre-order books, but, otherwise, little has changed.

 

I enjoy being surprised by new things and really don't care if the devs don't wish to provide updates and such, regardless of the reasons.

 

Besides, in the case of DCS, there are so many variables at play that even the folks doing the work don't always know how things will play out.

 

This is very very true, the way these things work out almost never ends the way the Devs wanted it to, maybe for better but usually for worse. I now as you guys have brought to my attention, It makes sense to keep the Info scarce and sprinkle few teasers. Its unfortunate that we all (Everyone is guilty of this) get fixated on little things and when that little thing isn't there we immediatly get a one way ticket to Hateville.

 

It is the same thing for movies, for me. Avoid the trailers and any hype so that way we come into it with, No expectations other than it will be another Great DCS Module.

[cichlidfan]

It is the same thing for movies, for me. Avoid the trailers and any hype so that way we come into it with, No expectations other than it will be another Great ...

 

Exactly. If you don't get hyped up about what you hope to get then you have a much better chance of enjoying what you do get.

 

I am on my third Beagle. I have little, to no, idea what to expect from the next one, but I do know it will be a fun ride.

 

EDIT: The Forrest Gump 'box of chocolates' quote comes to mind. ;)

[StandingCow]

It's because some people are insane and don't know how to be critical without being jackasses. It isn't just this game either, I have seen it with every single game out there, this vocal minority of people that are just super toxic. Sometimes it gets to the point where people actually send death threats to devs and stuff, it is absolutely nuts.

 

The whole not giving dates thing is a good idea, especially when a module is so far out that it is impossible to foresee any delays. The best they can do is wait until they are sure it is close to release before giving a broad date.

[sobek]

Forums are simply bad communication channels, they remove some very important aspects of human communication that will trigger restraint in both parties. There is a tendency to bring out the less favorable character aspects.

[hughlb]

The film or publishing industries function differently to the video games industry. The same is true of any narrative driven entertainment medium; it's difficult to pre release content without giving away too much, especially if your medium is time/length restricted (eg. the music industry). Furthermore, the work is that of its author, and is far less communal.

 

Video games development is far more community oriented, often building on the feedback from previous releases and using that as a selling point, or calling on the community to assist in bug squashing. The trouble with a flight sim, is that its almost entirely technical and grounded in reality, which means when ED says they're making an F/A-18C module, every man and his dog has an opinion and a dozen questions. In addition, it's fairly common practice for games developers to share information, screenshots, videos etc. Which does generate a level of perhaps unhealthy expectation within this community to do the same.

 

My own point of view is that a trickle of information is a good thing for an active discussion forum. For example, take Wag's latest comment on the F/A-18C; the discussion thread has gone incredibly quiet since, because we now have an idea of where things are at. A small development update on each module released predictably at the beginning of each quarter would help to diffuse speculation. Release schedules should be kept out of discussion until it's realistic to announce the module within that year, which seems to be what is currently happening. My 2c.

Edited September 16, 2016 by hughlb

[MikeMikeJuliet]

Forums are simply bad communication channels, they remove some very important aspects of human communication that will trigger restraint in both parties. There is a tendency to bring out the less favorable character aspects.

 

Its not the forum, but the whole internet.

 

And on the internet, way too many people make explicitly sure that they find every nook and cranny of the information posted, and then react to the superficial instead of the primary point of the information provided. People misunderstand on purpose and the start arguments based on that, instead of discussing the actual subject.

 

 

And I apologize for some of those "how is this and that progressing".

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

[shagrat]

I personally don't like surprises; I rather build up excitement by getting spoonfed little nuggets of videos and screenshots consistently over time - until release day! :)

The problem with the spoons of bits is the same as with any information.

 

A video snippet or WIP render pic gets ripped apart anal-yzed and rubbed into the face of the developer instantly.

People claim to see "errors in the 3D-modelling" that needs fixing, rant about texture quality, missing bits on the model... And they make assumptions about the release date of course, as the render/video "proves"(!) how far the module already is, as someone is already flying it and having fun, and they do not...

 

So the same shit-storm as with any update arises, again, spirals out of control. Moderators clean the forums, dish out warnings. The devs go silent and stop issuing info.

After a while there is the next "Why the secrecy?" or "Where is my update on XYZ?" posts come up. We discuss previous shit-storms, devs carefully start issuing monthly/weekly updates.

Information leads to assumptions, dates get missed and the rants start...

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

I don't like it either, but there seems to be an unstoppable pattern of events. :dunno:

[Coxy_99]

Should of behaved and stopped the whole bash the dev game LOL