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Dirty canopy glass?


Stonehouse
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Is there a kind graphics artist out there that can clean up the sliding hood perspex please?

 

I could be very wrong but I was under the impression from my reading of historical accounts that particularly the ground team for an aircraft/pilot in the RAF made a solid attempt to keep the glass as clean and clear as possible before every flight as during wartime specks and dirt on the canopy could = someone getting shot down because a distant contact was obscured or even ignored because it was thought just dirt. I find it makes it even harder than usual to keep track of contacts at a distance because of the dirt. I'd fix it myself if I knew how.

 

Thanks,

Stonehouse

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Totally depends on the ground crew; I have cleaned many a warbird canopy during my time volunteering at a prestigious flight museum in my area for years.

 

That being said, the canopy in the DCS spit likely is modeled after an in-service Spit during WWII - which means the ground crew did not have a bottle of Plexo as we do today, and did not have much time to do their job - spits often flew multiple sorties a day.

 

As such, the dirty canopy is something of an authentic, historic touch - I myself would be happy to touch up the textures and clear them, I'm a texture artist. Not sure how popular the mod would be, but its really just a matter of flattening the specular channel for the cockpit glass, really, and re-saving as a DDS texture.

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I like most of the cockpit, but sometimes artists do not consider that model serves some purpose - rather than looking good standing on airfield it is going to be used in this virtual reality brought to us by ED and used in that virtual combat. And sometimes artist vision doesnt exactly work with this.

I personally find some of the effects if not overdone, than at least annoying:

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/4526/RfU97Z.jpg

 

I'd be really happy if there would appear a version with less scratched and cleaner glass.

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If it were to change it should be optional on or off. There may be others like me that likes it as is.

But noone speaks for everyone.

 

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I'm guessing that all it needs it the appropriate dds file/s in the zip file of textures for the Spit modified but I don't how to do it. Once we had the modified items you could use JSGME to have the cleaner hood or not as per the recent prop mod to help FPS. On the dirty glass being authentic - again I could be wrong - but in the RAF or RAF like air forces I believe the erks were assigned specifically to one or two pilots and if they left the canopy dirty and it wasn't a very quick turn around refuel and rearm (meaning not enough time) they'd get a bollocking. Similarly if the hood didn't slide perfectly easily.

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I think an option would suit all concerned....except those who might consider a clean canopy a cheat. Probably very few.

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sometimes artists do not consider that model serves some purpose

 

They can't help but show off how good they are. I've never seen a better dirty canopy effect in a flight sim, but I still want to see it cleaned up.

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I think, even in the conditions they were in, if the cockpit glass had been as dirty as it is in this representation, the ground crew would have been torn a new one by the pilot... .

 

This was their lives at stake. Being able to see the enemy first was paramount to survival in many situations. I don't mind the various scratches etc, but it's like someone smeared oil or vaseline over parts of the glass in some areas. No halfway intelligent pilot would have taken off before it was cleared.

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Not the reference I was looking for but it serves I guess.

http://www.airfix.com/us-en/news/aerodrome/battle-of-britain-75-the-many-behind-the-few/

 

In particular the section on Airfield support personnel. Two directly relevant sections (bold highlight is mine text is unchanged however):

 

There were close bonds formed between ground crews and their pilots, with neither wanting to let the other down – without doubt, the sheer determination of the mechanics, armourers and ground crews of the Royal Air Force, was absolutely critical in supporting ‘the Few’.

and

 

Once an aircraft returned from combat, the pilot put it in the hands of his ground crew and he could be expecting to take off in a re-fuelled and re-armed aircraft in approximately ten minutes. Mechanics, armourers and other trades would swarm all over the aircraft, in an exercise that became second nature, by the end of September 1940 – up to four armourers would open the gun hatches, check that the guns were clear and loaded the ammunition trays. To prevent moisture from entering the un-fired guns, other members of the crew would tape the gun ports. A separate team would fill the aircraft with fuel, whilst the engine was being checked, which included topping up the oil and glycol coolant tanks. Oxygen tanks were changed, radio transmitters were tested and anything mentioned by the pilot were all acted on. Importantly, the Perspex canopy was thoroughly cleaned, taking great care to wipe off any oil, or grease, before the pilot was helped back into the cockpit, strapped in and sent off to face the Luftwaffe again.

Edit: the one I was thinking of which I'd read most recently. US reference this time from the book Fighter Group: The 352nd "Blue-Nosed Bastards" in World War II. In this case talking about activity just prior to a mission pg 105

Untitled.jpg.9f35435351713e9d604ce37ddca7e624.jpg


Edited by Stonehouse
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I personally find some of the effects if not overdone, than at least annoying:

http://imageshack.com/a/img924/4526/RfU97Z.jpg

 

I'd be really happy if there would appear a version with less scratched and cleaner glass.

I have to say I find that, not only a gorgeous artists job, but pretty realistic. It's a distinctive characteristic of the Spitfire having a rounded cockpit hull, making those lighting effects apparent, and so ED artists tried to bring to us that same effect. It happens in real life mates, flat cockpit panels in other aircraft don't feature that kind of effect (but a different one). I find annoying, of course, but exactly as annoying as it IS in RL when it happens, and it happens. Why should we ask for realism in other aspects of the simulation while asking for eliminating the realistic aspects that bother us? It's stupid, this is DCS, not WT.

 

 

That said, for those asking for "clean" plexiglass, that IS a clean plexiglass, you can try to clean it no matter how much, but used plexiglass is like that and so it is amazingly featured in the Spitfire. You want it clean? scratches happens when you clean it… it's a piece of plastic mates, no crystal clear…

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Obviously our points of view differ then. When I have problem seeing end of my wingtip like in this case, there is just something wrong for me.

 

And in regard to realism, there is one distinct problem with that. You dont look at those things sitting inside but you experience that on your monitor. It's same in regard to spotting, color changes and so on. I can see some dirt or scratches on my car window but its not nearly as problematic as if I would be seeing it on my monitor.

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Just to be clear, for me it's not the reflections back from the Perspex when the sun is at the right/wrong angle but the greyish dirt marks that obscure your vision at certain angles. All my reading indicates that the canopy was kept spotlessly clean and if badly enough scratched/damaged it was replaced as having it clean and free of blemishes was of paramount importance to the people who flew the planes in combat.

 

In any case, to prevent any sort of right or wrong crusade - all I was hoping for was someone to mod the canopy hood dds to clean it up for me and anyone else who likes it to use it, basically because I lack the skills to do so. To me it's much the same as similar requests for other aircraft in the past like the P51 and some of the flyable jet aircraft (for which I do have a clean glass mod in most cases) or the cockpit mods that mark the normal operating ranges for things like temp in green to make it easier to use via the monitor. If it's not forthcoming then so be it, I'll tackle the problem some other way.

 

Not trying to convince ED to change anything.

 

Best wishes,

Stonehouse


Edited by Stonehouse
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If it's the patch of grey to the upper front of the canopy then I believe it's not dirt. The fact that it only becomes apparent under specific lighting conditions and angles leads me to believe it's a shadowing effect.

 

On the ground the at midday the canopy appears clean and unmarked; it's only when aerobatting under the same light conditions I see this effect. Ergo, it's not dirt.

 

Whether or not this an artefact of an unfinished module or an attempt to emulate a prototypical effect I cannot tell you. What I can say is that curved perpex, particularly of the compound nature like that of the spits canopy could bend light in some peculiar ways.

 

It remains to be seen if this a bug or a feature.

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No for me it is the grey blotches that you see at certain angles when generally looking along the wing under certain light conditions. Doesn't look like scratches to me but like dirt blotches and streaks.

 

<edit> a poor example of a screen shot as it's near 1am for me. At times it is much worse. Almost looks like the scum you get on the inside of a car windscreen from the plastics plus dirt. To me it definitely doesn't look like scratches in the Perspex - having owned a yacht with perspex cabin windows of similar thickness or greater than an aircraft canopy I have seen scratches in perspex from the inside and they don't look like what I see.

 

Anyway as I said all this was a personal request for some help from the communities graphic artists not anything else.

Screen_170107_002411.thumb.jpg.b730d9e186db3a60f346764b3863de3b.jpg


Edited by Stonehouse
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Wow......There certainly are a lot of different opinions on this. It goes to show how everyone is different when it comes to these details.

I'll probably be skewered to death for this but when I saw the trailer for the Spitfire, I was totally turned on by the dirt and grease that was in the corners of the windshield. It looked great to me and added to the feeling of being enclosed in the cockpit by making the glass border more apparent. It was similar to the Mustang in that respect. But to me, but it looked better. So I was sold on that. It seems that others aren't so enthused about it. I have to say that I was disappointed by the lack of it when I first loaded the plane up and got in.

As far as the canopy. I don't ever think of any Module in DCS as being "realistic". I watch all of these arguments about realism, authenticism, whatever and kind of chuckle to myself. These modules are a series of digital algorithms, numbers, and data. That's about as far from realism as you can get. It's not real. And to my mind, DCS decides what they feel if appropriate for whatever. I offer my feedback as to what I feel is right or not but it boils down to opinion in the end. Much of the time I see what people argue is not realistic or up to standard and DCS doesn't correct them. And in fact I have seen pages and pages of heated argument about the realism of a small detail, and in the end, it never got addressed. Probably because ED saw the whole thing a bit differently. Arguing whether an electronic rendition of a plane is real or not down to the level of detail I see it argued here at times seems kind of silly to me. So I gave up on arguing it too much.

I fly the Gazelle a lot of the time. It's windshield is covered in dirt and dust. At first it was kind of annoying, but now I rather enjoy that it's there. I remember when the F86 had that god awful glare on it's bubble. There were times where you couldn't see anything but a white and grey sheen when you tried to look out of the top of your AC. It was not a case of realism, it was just too hard to do anything with that glare. I also remember the Huey having issues with debris on the glass and the protest that ensued. In all of the cases, the modules all ended up pretty OK in the end. So I'm not at all concerned with whether it's realistic or not, or whether it's going to be fixed.

Just my 2 cents..............................

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I can see some dirt or scratches on my car window but its not nearly as problematic as if I would be seeing it on my monitor.
No, you can't. Your car windows are glass, aeroplanes uses plexiglass. Should you ever fly a real GA aeroplane you would know, and how Spit glass look is exactly the same :smilewink:.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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As far as the canopy. I don't ever think of any Module in DCS as being "realistic". I watch all of these arguments about realism, authenticism, whatever and kind of chuckle to myself. These modules are a series of digital algorithms, numbers, and data. That's about as far from realism as you can get. It's not real. …
You're right, whatever we do it's not "real" per se, it's still a computer game played at home. Realism for me here means the overall feeling and game experience, also in this kind of features, and I couldn't be more glad about DCS every time I jump into my aeroplane and experience it so close to the real World I know and felt last time I flew, even with aeroplanes far from warbirds like a humble Cessna. I really understand when people find features they didn't know are there in RL and get annoyed by them, but RL is annoying sometimes and DCS tries to replicate that, what we have to cheer ourselves about, because that kind of tiny details makes the "experience" really truthful, not to mention the effort ED makes in trying to simulate those. Sometimes ED has to fall back and change, dumb down, or eliminate features they tried but people don't understand, even being realistic ones, I don't blame them, but also sometimes people should be a bit more open minded and understand RL have its flaws, and drawbacks, and annoyances, that also should be part of the overall simulation and thus ED tries to catch them for us to experience even though in front of a computer. It's not like I don't complain at all when something doesn't work as intended, but I'm sorry I can only be amazed when I find the same frigging scratches glaring in the Sun I know from real aeroplanes featured into DCS and they really nail them. May be I stare too much at those just beautiful details, I'm guilty, but may be people should appreciate a bit more what we get before asking for those details that "just bothers" to be eliminated.

 

 

S!


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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I love every thing about the Spitfire, including the scratches and dirt on this very early plastic glass, but what I would really want, is the heavy distortion found in the 4 fwd panels, which is in the real Spit and would add to realism.

 

..

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No, you can't. Your car windows are glass, aeroplanes uses plexiglass. Should you ever fly a real GA aeroplane you would know, and how Spit glass look is exactly the same :smilewink:.

 

 

S!

 

I know what aircraft canopy is made of and while I havent flown any 109 or Spitfire, I've seen some of them in museums (from both inside and outside), type of material was not the point here mate. Perspective was and how your eyes work. It's not the same to see from inside of the vehicle and see inside of vehicle on flat monitor.

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I know what aircraft canopy is made of and while I havent flown any 109 or Spitfire, I've seen some of them in museums (from both inside and outside), type of material was not the point here mate. Perspective was and how your eyes work. It's not the same to see from inside of the vehicle and see inside of vehicle on flat monitor.

 

+1

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Actually I fly with two military pilots in our DCS group, both Rotary wing, and they are forever disgruntled by the dirty cockpit glass. They consider it completely BS, and, as they put it, the first time they get in a bird and experience that kind of shoddy ground maintenance work, they would, and have , been chewing on some ground guy's ass, and his sergeant as well.

 

Los

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Actually I fly with two military pilots in our DCS group, both Rotary wing, and they are forever disgruntled by the dirty cockpit glass. They consider it completely BS, and, as they put it, the first time they get in a bird and experience that kind of shoddy ground maintenance work, they would, and have , been chewing on some ground guy's ass, and his sergeant as well.

 

Los

 

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I love every thing about the Spitfire, including the scratches and dirt on this very early plastic glass, but what I would really want, is the heavy distortion found in the 4 fwd panels, which is in the real Spit and would add to realism.

 

..

 

Wasn't that only affecting early Spitfires?

 

See below....

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VjJIDAAAQBAJ&pg=PP23&lpg=PP23&dq=spitfire+a+test+pilot%27s+story+cockpit+glass&source=bl&ots=MUOWCzUujz&sig=YFFaH4B_wv6c7KOe-gpK3g80dXc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqgty8yq7RAhXDXRQKHQ7SAuUQ6AEISDAN#v=snippet&q=distortion%201941&f=false

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