Easier refueling

[Ignition]

Hi.

 

I'm training the in air refueling and man its difficult :joystick:, if the tanker goes straight I can position myself ok with some work but when the tanker makes turns it all goes to hell.

 

I'm thinking that a game option to make the refueling process easier would be nice especially with the F-18C coming, and I guess the drogue is even harder than the boom.

[XtraChrisP]

You're not the first guy to have this idea... There's a couple other threads asking for a AAR game mode. Back in the day when the FC3 Eagle still had its SFM you just had to make contact and the computer would fly the plane until you topped off your tanks. It was helpful, but ultimately not nearly as satisfying as flying the jet the whole time. In my opinion, tanking is the most difficult but also the most satisfying part of DCS. Put in your practice, have the patience to work through the frustration and eventually it will click. If you want to practice with probe and drogue refueling you can use the M-2000C or the Su-33. Difficult, but definitely not impossible.

 

This was just my long winded way of saying "git gud." :smilewink:

 

Seriously though, best of luck. Hope you figure it out. :thumbup:

[Coxy_99]

Practice practice practice i also set curves for a smoother and less twitchy flight this will help hook on to the tanker as it orbits

[kelpie]

Practice practice practice i also set curves for a smoother and less twitchy flight this will help hook on to the tanker as it orbits

 

I've been having major problems with this too. What are your curve settings?

[Kayos]

Maybe they could make it so Auto-Pilot can connect for those people who can't do it.

[shagrat]

The problem with the boom is, the AI boom operator isn't doing what he is supposed to.

You fly the plane in the position and hold it there. Your job is to keep formation and the boom operator's job is to refuel you...

 

Currently you need to fly the plane to the boom and the boom operator surprises you with spastic movements shortly before contact. :doh:

[AtaliaA1]

There were a couple of "Real Life" pilots in the Vietnam Era that would fake a malfunction in order to avoid the refueling of the flight missions.

 

So the difficulty is as it should be. IMHO of course.

 

Took a while to get it but it was definitely a feeling of accomplishment when it clicked in.

[DirkLarien]

I also think there is room for improvements in AI or whole sequence.

 

Like refueling plane not "slamming on the brakes" as soon as it decides you missed. Nobody sane would do such a thing in such dangerous situation.

 

Would be great if plane flown straight and level and perhaps warn when its about to start turning or changing altitude.

 

Right now the refuel Ai pilot is jerk :-)

[shagrat]

There were a couple of "Real Life" pilots in the Vietnam Era that would fake a malfunction in order to avoid the refueling of the flight missions.

 

So the difficulty is as it should be. IMHO of course.

 

Took a while to get it but it was definitely a feeling of accomplishment when it clicked in.

There are "real life boom operators", that flew on the Tanker, on this forums that say otherwise and explain what the AI is doing wrong!

 

He also flew backseat in a jet on refueling and said it isn't that hard in real life as your peripheral vision is better and basically your only job is to fly close formation with the Tanker and let the boom operator refuel your plane...

 

I tend to trust his judgement. :dunno:

[StandingCow]

Just keep practicing and between attempts shake your arm out and loosen up. Don't focus on the boom, focus rather on a part of the tanker.

 

On one hand I agree with a possible easier refuel mode, but then again if you always use that you won't learn to do it properly.... so you would miss out on the personal achievement once you got it down.

[Capn kamikaze]

The problem isn't the actual refueling, it is the dumb ass boom operator, and the KC-135 pilot who likes to weave all over the place after making turns.

[shagrat]

Just keep practicing and between attempts shake your arm out and loosen up. Don't focus on the boom, focus rather on a part of the tanker.

 

On one hand I agree with a possible easier refuel mode, but then again if you always use that you won't learn to do it properly.... so you would miss out on the personal achievement once you got it down.

That is not the point... The point is: It is nothing like in real life, currently!

 

Sierra explained the problem pretty well.

 

You could even practice to do refueling with you and the Tanker inverted and master it, with the proper amount of training, but that is not what you do in real life.

 

I wait for ED to fix the Boom operator AI so he does his job and not sleeping on the controls.

 

The skill required from the pilot is to fly the plane in close formation to the Tankers tail, which is not an easy one.

It is not the task of the pilot to fly the plane to the boom!

 

What we have currently is not just "hard" it is unrealistic.

 

EDIT worst of all, if they fix it people may need to adjust and relearn refueling again, as you are used to fly the plane to a certain point, while when fixed the AI operator will try to "chase the receptacle"...

Edited April 17, 2017 by shagrat

[Capn kamikaze]

Yeah I fly another sim which will remain nameless, but it focuses on the F-16.... and that is so much more realistic and the boom operator AI is actually helpful, and because of that it is "easier" to refuel.

 

The lack of realism in DCS with regard to refueling is what makes it more difficult than it should be.

[ebabil]

practise can not be the only solution. because ai boom operators and tanker pilots are real maniacs.

they suddenly change the altitude of the tanker

[shagrat]

Have a look at Sierra99's posts here:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=173685

 

Posts #20 and #71 is pretty interesting...

 

I can guarantee you practice can solve the problem, but it doesn't mean that what you are practicing is by any means how it is in real life! ;)

Edited April 17, 2017 by shagrat

[Mars Exulte]

It's basically just glorified formation flying, which is a extremely rudimentary but oft overlooked aspect of flying. Practice with a friend or an AI. Just follow him closely and try to feather your speed so you don't overshoot, drift away, or otherwise fall out of formation.

 

Also, your tanker should ideally fly in a straight line when hooked up. Set longer waypoints or tell him quit sipping vodka before work.

 

Note : not saying it doesn't need work :p

[fitness88]

Does the probe on the M-2000C obstruct the pilots view?

[shagrat]

It's basically just glorified formation flying, which is a extremely rudimentary but oft overlooked aspect of flying. Practice with a friend or an AI. Just follow him closely and try to feather your speed so you don't overshoot, drift away, or otherwise fall out of formation.

 

Also, your tanker should ideally fly in a straight line when hooked up. Set longer waypoints or tell him quit sipping vodka before work.

 

Note : not saying it doesn't need work :p

That does not fix the problem. You still practice hard, only to learn how to place your aircraft in the wrong spot, basically.

 

It does work out in DCS, after tremendous training, but in the end you learn the wrong procedure.

 

I really recommend reading Sierra99's explanation how it should work, how the Receiver is approaching the Tanker with the boom as a fixed reference, and only when he is in the "refueling box" the pilot simply holds position and the boom operator maneuvers the boom into the receptacle.

Currently as soon as you get into pre-contact he pops up the boom, messing up your reference, then you need to fly in a specific spot in the upper limit of the box without a reference other than the Tankers fuselage and finally on contact and disconnect he sometimes rams the boom into your plane.

 

I'm tired of this "just practice" or "it takes time" arguments, when it is clearly buggy and/or broken.

 

You can manage to refuel, but it isn't "realistic" in the slightest. :(

[probad]

this thread is a crockful of crap, there's only one skill you need to refuel no matter if the ai is right or wrong.

 

if you cant put the airplane exactly where you want it to be, then you're a sloppy pilot.

fix your own business before you tell others to fix theirs

[Northstar98]

this thread is a crockful of crap, there's only one skill you need to refuel no matter if the ai is right or wrong.

 

if you cant put the airplane exactly where you want it to be, then you're a sloppy pilot.

fix your own business before you tell others to fix theirs

 

Wow, no need for that! I mean crikey, calm thyself ;)

 

We're talking about flying-boom refuelling, not probe and drogue refuelling. Probe and drogue is dependent on the pilot being able to fly the aircraft super precisely and perfectly with no help from the tanker apart from the tanker staying airborne.

 

With flying-boom you are reliant on a boom operator in the tanker manipulating the boom. So long as you're within the aerial refuelling envelope, the boom-operator should be able to place the boom into the receiving aircraft's receptacle. Which is one of the reasons why flying booms exist - as an advantage of them is reduced receiving pilot fatigue, because there is a safe flight envelope instead of an exact position. So long as you manage to fly within the safe flight envelope - there shouldn't be an issue, unless the AI in the boom operator is making things unnecessarily more complicated/difficult.

 

If the AI for the boom operator is wrong, flying-boom refuelling is going to be more difficult than reality/necessary full stop. See this https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2897541&postcount=71

 

In the probe and drogue everything is dependent on the pilot being able to place the probe into the drogue/basket damn near perfectly to complete the refuelling - relying on them placing the aircraft in more or less the exact position you're talking about.

 

For probe and drogue you are reliant on placing your aircraft precisely where it needs to be to refuel.

 

Getting back on track the OP wants easier refuelling. A solution? An auto-refuelling where AI takes command of flying the aircraft. The exact same thing as the auto-pilot function in the helicopters when you take control as a door gunner, or when performing auto-start and auto-shutdowns.

[Automan]

Probe and drogue refueling is a challenge... In Sim and in real life.

I don't know if turbolence is present too in DCS, but reach the boom requires a lot of practice.

And accidents are around the corner

This is is what happened some years ago to one of our aircrafts:

 

 

 

The flying boom system, used in most US planes, is easier.

[shagrat]

Probe and drogue refueling is a challenge... In Sim and in real life.

I don't know if turbolence is present too in DCS, but reach the boom requires a lot of practice.

And accidents are around the corner

This is is what happened some years ago to one of our aircrafts:

 

 

 

The flying boom system, used in most US planes, is easier.

Boom is definitely easier in real life at least from the movies you can find.

 

Turbulence is simulated as general "turbulence", not wake turbulence in DCS.

[The Black Swan]

Am I the only one who finds the basket waaaaaaaay easier than the boom?

 

EDIT: I mean in DCS.

[shagrat]

Am I the only one who finds the basket waaaaaaaay easier than the boom?

 

EDIT: I mean in DCS.

Nope. As the Tanker is no longer changing speeds erratically, to kill you, it is indeed easier to refuel in the Mirage, at least it seems...

[Northstar98]

I find the probe and drogue method easier purely because that's my preferred method of refuelling so I practice that more, the other reason is because when I approach a flying-boom tanker just as I'm about to be in the position where the boom can connect to my aircraft the boom the operator suddenly moves it just as I get close, from my perspective it looks like it's going to collide with the aircraft (I'm using an A-10 here), he does this wild movement of the boom from every angle I approach (granted I've only tried refuelling from it 3-4 times and this SO isn't enough attempts. Whereas with the drogue and probe, I can fly the Su-33 probe into the basket and stay there very well, except my X52 Pro sticks around it's centre position leading to constant over-compensation and the throttle can be a real pain. But overall I find probe and drogue easier than the boom