DCS: de Havilland DH.98 Mosquito FB Mk VI Discussion

[Bozon]

6 hours ago, MarcT-NL said:

…

A bit dissapointed about the "fastest plane in the world" though. In cruise conditions it will go about 280 mph. That's slower than the Mustang !  And I just can't seem the kill anything that shoots back !  I'm dead before I get the pipper on the target. Need guidance

The title of fastest plane was for PR/Bomber mossies … in 1942. Later these models were still pretty fast, and could clam the title of “fastest” if the race were a 2000 miles marathon - the cruise speed was very high especially vs. fighters with external fuel required for long distances.

The FB.VI was never the “fastest”. It is a low altitude model and was among the top deck speeds… in mid 1943. By june 1944 it fell behind the latest single engine fighters. Around July 44 (that I know) some FB.VI squadrons started using 150 octane fuel and +25 boost on their Merlins - this again pushed the FB.VI to be comparable to the latest Lufwaffe fighters. Our FB.VI is cleared only for +18 boost.

In the latest iteration of modeling, DCS FB.VI lost quite a bit of its maneuverability vs. what it was at start of EA - it was a joy to fly then. It now feels like it lost 3 feet of length from each wing, so takeoffs and dogfights are more challenging - I still hope that this will be changed again in future patches. In terms of deck speed this is a controversial, but currently it is modeled at the lower end of uncertain deck speed range.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Bozon

[MarcT-NL]

On 1/24/2022 at 12:58 PM, razo+r said:

Would be nice to know what you are trying to kill that shoots back as there are different approaches for different units. 

Tanks? The higher your angle the better. 

LAV? The higher the angle the better, or sometimes from behind. 

Bunkers? Come from the deadzone.

Planes? The farther the easier as the gunners are dumb as they do not lead and can only hit close targets. 

 

I was talking about flak-sites, and AAA (on a Schnellboot for instance). But I should clarify, I have a terrible target-fixation. I know that, but can't help it.

[Gwalker99]

On 11/8/2021 at 3:53 AM, Glide said:

Mine is collecting dust in the hangar with the Spitfire.  Too bad about the takeoff performance.   Nice try.

howcome ?

[grafspee]

@Glide not sure what are you talking about. My mossie takes off nice, spitfire great as well.

Edited February 4, 2022 by grafspee

[Terry Dactil]

Yes. It is not rocket science

If you can't keep it straight and the heading is varying wildly from side to side it means the human bit of the feedback loop can't keep up and the control gain needs to be reduced.

Put in a curve, or if you are in the anti-curve brigade, then reduce the y axis sensitivity until you get rid of the over-controlling.

For the Spitfire I finished up using 30~40% curve and it runs like it is on rails. Same with the Mosquito.

Google PID and control loop feedback for more info.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Terry Dactil

[Bozon]

2 hours ago, grafspee said:

@Glide not sure what are you talking about. My mossie takes off nice, spitfire great as well.

 

It is not just the ground steering. She barely gets into the air after a long takeoff run. Compared with previous patches, it feels like the Mosquito lost 3 feet of length from each wing. Turn performance is affected as well. I don’t know if it’s wrong, I don’t know if it is right - it is just worse than before.

[grafspee]

22 hours ago, Bozon said:

It is not just the ground steering. She barely gets into the air after a long takeoff run. Compared with previous patches, it feels like the Mosquito lost 3 feet of length from each wing. Turn performance is affected as well. I don’t know if it’s wrong, I don’t know if it is right - it is just worse than before.

It happen to all warbirds when ED is refining FM, same happen with P-47 non high speed dive characteristic were present at release, now p-47 has those.

But i will test mossie how it flies and will report here with my impression.

I did a test fly, and i noticed not much of the change, take off run lenth is pretty much the same, it can do 340-350 mph at deck which is sick for that kind of plane, it still loops nicely again for a bomber still very good.

Edited February 5, 2022 by grafspee

[Jetliner]

On 2/4/2022 at 2:26 AM, Bozon said:

It is not just the ground steering. She barely gets into the air after a long takeoff run. Compared with previous patches, it feels like the Mosquito lost 3 feet of length from each wing. Turn performance is affected as well. I don’t know if it’s wrong, I don’t know if it is right - it is just worse than before.

Currently trying to figure this out with my friend. He's rolling down the whole runway and only getting to about 100mph before overrunning and crashing into the fence. Brakes are off and reading 0 on the pressure, props are full forward, making +12 of boost if he gives it the beans but the plane just isn't gaining speed. 

[Mr_sukebe]

8 minutes ago, Jetliner said:

Currently trying to figure this out with my friend. He's rolling down the whole runway and only getting to about 100mph before overrunning and crashing into the fence. Brakes are off and reading 0 on the pressure, props are full forward, making +12 of boost if he gives it the beans but the plane just isn't gaining speed. 

What I use is:

 - Full revs, i.e. 3k

 - 10 degrees of flaps

 +18 boost (if a short runway and/or heavily loaded)

Give that a try

[Jetliner]

It doesn't get going in any mission. Training tutorials nothing. Full power he +12 full props 15 degrees of flaps even, 100mph and he runs out of runway no matter what he does.  Sometimes he will get it to rotate but it's too slow to stay up. It's like he's way overweight. 

8 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

What I use is:

 - Full revs, i.e. 3k

 - 10 degrees of flaps

 +18 boost (if a short runway and/or heavily loaded)

Give that a try

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Jetliner

[Art-J]

6 hours ago, Jetliner said:

It doesn't get going in any mission. Training tutorials nothing. Full power he +12 full props 15 degrees of flaps even, 100mph and he runs out of runway no matter what he does.  Sometimes he will get it to rotate but it's too slow to stay up. It's like he's way overweight. 

Sounds like he has game flight mode turned on then. It's known to cause such symptoms. Tell him to switch to simulation, re-bind controls accordingly and try again.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Art-J

[Bozon]

If he can’t make +18 boost check the calibration of the throttle axis, full forward may not equal 100% throttle in the game - use alt+enter to show the controls overlay.

However, if the plane can’t take off with +12 boost then there is a problem. I too resort to +18 to get airborne even when light. With a heavy load even that is not always enough to clear the trees after the end of the runway.
IIRC, one of the tutorial vids teaches to take off at +12 boost and this is what I used to do with the 1st EA version. At +12 she used to easily get off the ground before running out of runway.

[grafspee]

Mossie has throttle detent' so you need to lift it if you want 18lbs boost. It is weird that he can not take off at 12lbs or 14lbs cant remember throttle detent limiter value.

Edited February 10, 2022 by grafspee

[DD_Fenrir]

10 hours ago, Jetliner said:

It doesn't get going in any mission. Training tutorials nothing. Full power he +12 full props 15 degrees of flaps even, 100mph and he runs out of runway no matter what he does.  Sometimes he will get it to rotate but it's too slow to stay up. It's like he's way overweight. 

1. What airfield?

Bear in mind many of the landing grounds in the Channel or Normandy map are fighter fields and have only 2,000 yard runways; a FB.VI Mossie can get off fully fuelled and with a 2000lb bomb load but 10 degrees of flap is required and you will not have a lot of runway to spare; in real life the fighter-bomber Mossie units tended to be based at larger fields with longer concrete/asphalt runways.

2. Are you taking off into wind?

I CANNOT EMPHASISE HOW IMPORTANT THIS IS.

I see so many people in DCS in multiplayer get in and fly WW2 era aircraft and pay absolutely no attention to wind direction or strength. Then they have the temerity to wonder why their landings/take-offs/taxiing got suddenly harder. 

If you are taking off with a crosswind, tailwind or - god forbid - a three-quartering tail-wind then either the mission designer effed-up or you need to pay more attention.

A crosswind might be unavoidable, but most of the DCS airfields (on the WW2 maps at least) provide an option to choose a runway that places the crosswind component a little less aggressively. THERE IS NO EXCUSE TO TAKEOFF WITH A TAILWIND. DON'T DO IT, ESPECIALLY IN A MOSSIE.

3. How straight is he keeping it on his take-off run?

You might be keeping her off the grass on the takeoff run, but if you're snaking left and right and using full deflection rudder inputs that's limiting your ability to accelerate. She needs to be kept as straight as possible.

4. Get the tail up!

Have 2 division nose down trim, and make sure to get the tail off the ground (gently!) as soon as she'll allow; she'll pick up speed faster. With the 10 degree flap setting and the tail up she'll lift herself off as soon as she's ready to fly; try to force her off the ground and you'll end up in the....

5. The AoA drag trap

If you get flying too soon and with the benefit of ground effect you'll find yourself trapped in a nose high, high power mushing state; you're airborne but unable to make altitude or accelerate because the the angle of attack you require to maintain flight after you leave the threshold of ground effect is generating so much drag you can't get any more airspeed. Put you're flaps away and you'll sink into the ground. Lift the nose higher and you'll stall.

This is happening because you forced the aircraft to fly before she is ready and whilst still in ground effect. You have to allow her to lift herself off. Keep your climb angle VERY shallow and get the gear way as fast as possible, being aware that as the gear goes away the pitch trim changes massively and wants to lift the nose markedly - KEEP IT SHALLOW. Once she's got to 190IAS then get the flaps away.

 

As a footnote I do suspect that some of the DCS airfields have too many trees/obstructions too close on runway line; in real life there were quite stringent parameters regarding the height and distance from the approaches to a runway that obstacles were allowed; if there were any (including houses!) they were cleared. I think DCS might not reflect some of these obstacle clearance rules.

Edited February 10, 2022 by DD_Fenrir

[grafspee]

 i can add another tip, once you lift off pull gear up asap, it removes a lot of drag, this is first thing which you need to do it after you take off, not flaps not engine power adjustment first thing is "GEAR UP" 

 I loaded up mosquito with bombs and 100% fuel, and i picked up short normandy airfield, you can take off mosquito from those short runways.

Edited February 10, 2022 by grafspee

[Jetliner]

On 2/9/2022 at 8:45 PM, Art-J said:

Sounds like he has game flight mode turned on then. It's known to cause such symptoms. Tell him to switch to simulation, re-bind controls accordingly and try again.

 

It was this.  Once he said he can get it like 10 feet off the ground with 15 degrees of flaps but it slowly just sinks back to the ground I've flown enough warbirds to know takeoff stalls are never gentle little descents back to earth.  I immediately told him to check game mode and sure enough.

[grafspee]

And this small ww2 team forced to waste time to code "game flight" mode , and on top of this, it still does not work, so what's the point really?

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by grafspee

[LeCuvier]

2 hours ago, grafspee said:

And this small ww2 team forced to waste time to code "game flight" mode , and on top of this, it still does not work, so what's the point really?

 

 

I fully agree. Get rid of this useless ballast!

[LeCuvier]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:55 PM, Bozon said:

In the latest iteration of modeling, DCS FB.VI lost quite a bit of its maneuverability vs. what it was at start of EA - it was a joy to fly then. It now feels like it lost 3 feet of length from each wing, so takeoffs and dogfights are more challenging - I still hope that this will be changed again in future patches. In terms of deck speed this is a controversial, but currently it is modeled at the lower end of uncertain deck speed range.

 

If ED had a "money-back" or "return for credit" option, I would return the Mossie immediately. The incredible inertia makes it very hard to control it and target something, and the horrendous cockpit layout (realistic though) confuses me. It makes a nice big target though.

[Rudel_chw]

2 minutes ago, LeCuvier said:

If ED had a "money-back" or "return for credit" option, I would return the Mossie immediately.

Not needed, as it has a two weeks free trial, for the user to try before buying. 

[LeCuvier]

11 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

Not needed, as it has a two weeks free trial, for the user to try before buying. 

Yeah, no more pre-purchase! ED will like that.

[Rainbowgirl]

On 1/24/2022 at 11:45 AM, MarcT-NL said:

Well that's fixed now. In th previous release, wingbombs could only be dropped if they were fitted in the mission editor. Not after re-arming.

The current Mosquito (Jan-2022) can drop all bombs, also after re-arming, and can fire rockets. Just the bomb's rear fuses don't work. They set of on inpact so you can forget about low-level bombing.

However; very nice and fun plane, and I'm taking it for a spin more and more. If only I could hit anything with the bombs !  Also I dread the navigator-skills needed, But that is for a later time.

A bit dissapointed about the "fastest plane in the world" though. In cruise conditions it will go about 280 mph. That's slower than the Mustang !  And I just can't seem the kill anything that shoots back !  I'm dead before I get the pipper on the target. Need guidance

 

Yes, this Mosquito variant is not particularly a greyhound and its supercharger is tuned for low and mid altitudes up to 6 km. Even there it is just average comparing to other modules. Above that it looses breath quickly and it is between 6-8 km where speed tuned fighters like Mustang or Bf-109K shine. Regarding guidance to targets. You mean ships, ground units or fighters? Mosquito is not suited to stand toe to toe with single engine high performers. You have not enough thrust for sustained turns and it is less nimble and slow. You don`t dictate terms of fight. You can`t chase. You can`t run away. Once a decent pilot gets behind you, the fight is over quickly.

One way to dodge bullets from ships and AA ground cannons is to wait for a burst to be shoot at you, then change altitude by a few metres so bullets miss you and approach  and shoot at target during time windows between bursts which is about 10-20 secs. If there are more units firing at you at different moments, then it is better not to attempt an attack in a first place. You won`t win on your own unless there is at least 1 more ally with you to  preoccupy AA gunners.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Rainbowgirl

[Bozon]

17 hours ago, Rainbowgirl said:

Yes, this Mosquito variant is not particularly a greyhound and its supercharger is tuned for low and mid altitudes up to 6 km. Even there it is just average comparing to other modules. Above that it looses breath quickly and it is between 6-8 km where speed tuned fighters like Mustang or Bf-109K shine. Regarding guidance to targets. You mean ships, ground units or fighters? Mosquito is not suited to stand toe to toe with single engine high performers. You have not enough thrust for sustained turns and it is less nimble and slow. You don`t dictate terms of fight. You can`t chase. You can`t run away. Once a decent pilot gets behind you, the fight is over quickly.

One way to dodge bullets from ships and AA ground cannons is to wait for a burst to be shoot at you, then change altitude by a few metres so bullets miss you and approach  and shoot at target during time windows between bursts which is about 10-20 secs. If there are more units firing at you at different moments, then it is better not to attempt an attack in a first place. You won`t win on your own unless there is at least 1 more ally with you to  preoccupy AA gunners.

 

The FB.VI have no business above 10,000 feet. IRL almost all of its action happened below 5,000 feet unless they were cruising above clouds. At sea level it was up there with the fastest fighters up until late 1944 when 109K and FW-190D started to show up… oh wait, these are the ones you will face in DCS… oops.

There is some uncertainty as to the supposed deck speed of the FB.VI - it depends whether it has Merlin 23 or 25, whether it has multi-stubs or saxophone exhausts, and whether it has flame dumping exhaust shrouds. Also, individual airframes have a bit of a variance between them. Ours is supposed to be the fastest configuration, however no test data for this exact configuration exists (that I know of) - some extrapolation is required and that means some uncertainty. DCS FB.VI is currently at the very bottom of the uncertainty range with 340 mph. The upper estimates go as high as 355 mph, so the gray zone is not entirely negligible.

In terms of power loading (mass to horse power ratio), the FB.VI is on par with planes like the FW190A8 and P-47D. It is not under powered. In terms of wing loading it is also quite similar to these planes. So, at least until it gets quite slow and induced drag dominates, it should be able to sustain turns with them. It could initially, but after some patches it now can’t.

[Rainbowgirl]

On 2/13/2022 at 7:18 PM, Bozon said:

The FB.VI have no business above 10,000 feet. IRL almost all of its action happened below 5,000 feet unless they were cruising above clouds. At sea level it was up there with the fastest fighters up until late 1944 when 109K and FW-190D started to show up… oh wait, these are the ones you will face in DCS… oops.

There is some uncertainty as to the supposed deck speed of the FB.VI - it depends whether it has Merlin 23 or 25, whether it has multi-stubs or saxophone exhausts, and whether it has flame dumping exhaust shrouds. Also, individual airframes have a bit of a variance between them. Ours is supposed to be the fastest configuration, however no test data for this exact configuration exists (that I know of) - some extrapolation is required and that means some uncertainty. DCS FB.VI is currently at the very bottom of the uncertainty range with 340 mph. The upper estimates go as high as 355 mph, so the gray zone is not entirely negligible.

In terms of power loading (mass to horse power ratio), the FB.VI is on par with planes like the FW190A8 and P-47D. It is not under powered. In terms of wing loading it is also quite similar to these planes. So, at least until it gets quite slow and induced drag dominates, it should be able to sustain turns with them. It could initially, but after some patches it now can’t.

Yes, our Mosquito needs to be flown as intruder, not as single engine fighter in combat missions. When I flown it on Channel server,  was sneaking whenever possible under 50 metres over channel and French soil. Mosquito can be played on its strengths on servers or missions without AI fighters [ as they can see rather well ], with fog of war, no labels, no F5 view for human players and also precise bombing runs will be a reality once delayed fuzes will work again  in DCS.

A successful sortie is the one during which you  avoid any contact with enemy fighters. Sneak in, do the job, sneak out and act like nothing happened until landing back home.

As a cruiser on Aerobatic servers it`s great since they sorted  elevation trim sensitivity.

[MarcT-NL]

On 2/13/2022 at 2:41 AM, Rainbowgirl said:

...Regarding guidance to targets. You mean ships, ground units or fighters?...

Hehehe, no, I meant I am in need of guidance. I need someone to explain to me how to get bombs on target.

Edited February 15, 2022 by MarcT-NL