Side stick vs Centre stick...

[ScottyBS]

Just watching the cockpit famil video - didn’t realise the F16 was a side stick confit as opposed to centre ... would be interested to hear what the design/ergonomic/hmi benefits of the different configurations are - why is the f18 centre and f16 side? Anybody flown actual aircraft have thoughts on the +/- of them.

 

Thanks

 

Scott

[Ziptie]

Just watching the cockpit famil video - didn’t realise the F16 was a side stick confit as opposed to centre ... would be interested to hear what the design/ergonomic/hmi benefits of the different configurations are - why is the f18 centre and f16 side? Anybody flown actual aircraft have thoughts on the +/- of them.

 

Thanks

 

Scott

 

 

 

Because it is a relatively small cockpit, but primarily due to the lack of movement from the stick - being a pressure command stick rather than input command stick.

 

The F-35A/B are also a side stick, FYI.

 

Cheers,

 

Don

[macrossMX]

If I recall, the F-16 is a pressure/input hybrid stick because the first F-16 flyers apparently freaked out when they are getting no physical input from the stick.

 

And also, isn't the side stick configuration provide less of a left turn bias compared to a center stick where it is easier to pull left than right with a center stick.

[Kid18120]

If I recall, the F-16 is a pressure/input hybrid stick because the first F-16 flyers apparently freaked out when they are getting no physical input from the stick.

 

And also, isn't the side stick configuration provide less of a left turn bias compared to a center stick where it is easier to pull left than right with a center stick.

 

The actual "control" is handled just by pressure sensors.

The stick moves very slightly just to give some kind of feedback to the pilots but has no mechanical connection to the FCS / control surfaces as far as i know

[Andysim212]

Would love someone like Thrustmaster to make a pressure stick like that. Would be alot of R&D for a limited market though.

[Nooch]

It's not really a pressure stick. It still moves but just not as a much as a standard stick. Rafale and F-35 for example have the same. Some pilots told me that stick location didn't matter to them. My personal view on this is that side stick is better, not only does it allow for a more neutral body position which helps comfort, but also I find you can make more clean and precise stick movement with it.

[Alicatt]

Would love someone like Thrustmaster to make a pressure stick like that. Would be alot of R&D for a limited market though.

 

Real Simulator has been making force sensor replacements for the TM Cougar for quite a few years now and also replacement force sensors and F-16 joystick handles for the Warthog.

 

http://realsimulator.com/

[Deano87]

Real Simulator has been making force sensor replacements for the TM Cougar for quite a few years now and also replacement force sensors and F-16 joystick handles for the Warthog.

 

http://realsimulator.com/

 

Yup and they are excellent.

[Deano87]

It's not really a pressure stick. It still moves but just not as a much as a standard stick. Rafale and F-35 for example have the same. Some pilots told me that stick location didn't matter to them. My personal view on this is that side stick is better, not only does it allow for a more neutral body position which helps comfort, but also I find you can make more clean and precise stick movement with it.

 

I don’t know where you get this info. But it’s incorrect. The F-16 stick input are based around force not stick movement. The stick does move a small amount, but that is more of a byproduct of the force being applied then anything else.

[Fjordmonkey]

It's not really a pressure stick. It still moves but just not as a much as a standard stick.

 

The Viper's stick moves because they've added a little amount of movement into it. In the early days it didn't move at all, which pilots found to be both weird and also that it made it far too easy to input unwanted commands.

 

And the stick-movement has absolutely NOTHING to do with flightcontrol-input. Pressure-sensing rather than translating stick-movement into flightcontrol-actuation.

[Nooch]

I don’t know where you get this info. But it’s incorrect. The F-16 stick input are based around force not stick movement. The stick does move a small amount, but that is more of a byproduct of the force being applied then anything else.

 

Yes I know, that's what I meant. Sorry I guess I worded my message poorly.

[Wags]

I'm not being paid for this, but I do recommend the FSSB by Realsimulator. After time in an F-16C Full Mission Trainer (FMT), the FSSB feels just like the real thing.

 

Thanks

[Gierasimov]

Interesting

 

I'm not being paid for this, but I do recommend the FSSB by Realsimulator. After time in an F-16C Full Mission Trainer (FMT), the FSSB feels just like the real thing.

 

Thanks

 

Hi Wags,

 

Is this the thing you are talking about?

 

http://www.realsimulator.com/html/fssb_r3_lighting.html

 

FSSB R3 Lighting

[Wags]

Hi Wags,

 

Is this the thing you are talking about?

 

http://www.realsimulator.com/html/fssb_r3_lighting.html

 

FSSB R3 Lighting

 

Yes

[Supmua]

Side stick vs Centre stick...

 

I can’t say enough good things about the FSSB R3 base. If you want a force sensing base for joystick, this is the one. It uses the same connection socket as Thrustmaster and Virpil, so widespread compatibility with different joysticks is a plus.

 

Their new F-16 stick is also excellent. The hardware is top notched and is my current favorite stick. The only negative right now is the Bluetooth connection which is very picky and requires specific dongles to work flawlessly, but they’re making it such that users won’t need Bluetooth for full operation in the near future. The software side is still evolving and will need some more fine tuning, but will be fairly intuitive and powerful in the end.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Supmua

[Alicatt]

I'm not being paid for this, but I do recommend the FSSB by Realsimulator. After time in an F-16C Full Mission Trainer (FMT), the FSSB feels just like the real thing.

 

Thanks

 

Having tested their products in 2003, and even featured on their website with using their rudder pedals back then, I agree, they are excellent quality.

 

That is one evening I will not forget in a hurry, with the team from Real Simulator and a few of us from Frugal's Forums, including Mark, getting the lowdown on what they were making.

[Creature_1stVFW]

I'm not being paid for this, but I do recommend the FSSB by Realsimulator. After time in an F-16C Full Mission Trainer (FMT), the FSSB feels just like the real thing.

 

Thanks

 

+1

[Smoked]

I'm not being paid for this, but I do recommend the FSSB by Realsimulator. After time in an F-16C Full Mission Trainer (FMT), the FSSB feels just like the real thing.

 

Thanks

 

100% agree.... I have been using one for about a month now and it is simply awesome. So looking foreword to the Viper and using this setup...

[Sierra99]

I don’t know where you get this info. But it’s incorrect. The F-16 stick input are based around force not stick movement. The stick does move a small amount, but that is more of a byproduct of the force being applied then anything else.

 

It’s not a byproduct of the force being applied. It is designed to move a specific amount.

[bbrz]

..didn’t realise the F16 was a side stick confit as opposed to centre ... would be interested to hear what the design/ergonomic/hmi benefits of the different configurations are - why is the f18 centre and f16 side?

I've flown planes with side and center sticks IRL and you get used to both versions very quickly.

 

In one of the most interesting books about the F/A-18 (and highly recommended), Hornet, the inside story of the F/A-18 by Orr Kelly, he mentions that they decided for the center stick because you can turn further to the left than with the stick mounted on the right side.

AFAIR that's one of the reasons for the towel racks in the F-16.

 

Btw, FBW doesn't have anything to do with it. The oldest plane with a side stick I flew was a simply GA plane which had been designed in the late 1950s.

[VampireNZ]

...

 

And also, isn't the side stick configuration provide less of a left turn bias compared to a center stick where it is easier to pull left than right with a center stick.

 

 

Yes - the F-16 uses 133% for roll with left higher than right as you say, and 185% for pitch.

 

So for pitch for example - the max pull is 37 lbs, but the max push is only 20 lbs.

[mvsgas]

Maximum noseup and nosedown pitch commands are generated by 25 and 16 pounds of input, respectively. Roll commands are generated by a maximum of 17 pounds in cruise gains and by 12 pounds in takeoff and landing gains. When using the switches/buttons on the stick, inadvertent

inputs to the FLCS are possible.

 

Upon landing, at high speed and prior to NLG WOW, forward stick pressure in excess of approximately 2 pounds results in full trailing edge down deflection of the horizontal tails. This horizontal tail deflection reduces wheel braking effectiveness. At high speeds in the three-point attitude, forward stick results in excessive loads on the NLG which can lead to nose tire failure and possibly cause structural failure of the NLG.

 

During some autopilot mode, Attitude corrections can be initiated through the control stick steering by applying force to the side stick controller. Roll attitude may be changed by exerting a lateral force exceeding 2 pounds. When the new reference attitude is attained, release the side stick controller. To correct pitch attitude, a longitudinal force exceeding 3 pounds shall be applied. To temporarily decouple all autopilot inputs to the control system, depress paddle switch on the side stick controller. Release of the paddle switch reestablishes autopilot hold mode references and the heading command on the HSI.

 

Rudder pedals, A high-gradient feel spring provides the pilot with artificial rudder feel. A force proportional to the amount of rudder deflection is required on the rudder pedals. The rudder pedal force is 15 pounds at breakout and approximately 110 pounds at maximum deflection.

[NevSmith]

Just watching the cockpit famil video - didn’t realise the F16 was a side stick confit as opposed to centre ... would be interested to hear what the design/ergonomic/hmi benefits of the different configurations are - why is the f18 centre and f16 side? Anybody flown actual aircraft have thoughts on the +/- of them.

Thanks

Scott

 

So far what I've read through various articles and interviews of pilots who flew the viper, the side-stick configuration of the F-16, combined with its right forearm-armest and the bubble canopy, is called a "wonder in ergonomics".

 

In combination with the side sticks armrest, a pilot is able to withstand the enormous g-force in a bird like the viper (round about 9 G's) much better and the stick stays controllable more precisely.

 

After many years of usiing a center stick position at my home cockpit configuration, I even have changed my TM Warthog stick from center position to the right side.

 

And after a certain time of adaptation (most was just obtaining a new "mind-set" :smilewink:) I can only come to this verdict:

 

Even as a stick player it feels more natural; your seat-stance becomes more stable/releaxed. The shoulder-blade gets laid up plain on the seat - in consequence the thorax gets more open and the breath deepens.

 

I've combined my new configuration with a kind of "armrest", and as a result my stick imputs became more precise - pitch AND roll !

 

Additional positive side-effect: now I have room for my keyboard in front of me :thumbup: - highly recommended.

 

 

All the best.

 

 

PS: Because of all these advantages, most (if not all) of todays modern fighter jets offer a right side stick configuration in their cockpits.

Edited August 31, 2019 by NevSmith

[bbrz]

Because of all these advantages, most (if not all) of todays modern fighter jets offer a right side stick configuration in their cockpits.

That's more a question of design philosophy than being an actual advantage. E.g. the Typhoon and the Su-57 both have a conventional stick layout.

[schurem]

One advantage of center stick is you can hold a position with the left hand while the right one does something else, like fiddle with an MFD, tune a radio or sip a coffee.