New Pay Model / subscription discussion

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Dannyvandelft said:

I'd gladly pay a subscription fee, let's say $15 a month

Then go to E-shop, buy something  and be glad

[cfrag]

5 hours ago, Hiob said:

We need some kind of „thumbs down“ reaction possibility.

I hope not. That *really* brings out the trolls, and IIRC we had something similar some time ago in these forums. Thankfully, no longer. 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

There's always the possibility of leaving polite criticism, as well. Far be it from me to suggest civility, though.

[Slippa]

8 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

There's always the possibility of leaving polite criticism, as well. Far be it from me to suggest civility, though.

Potty mouth .

[AndrewDCS2005]

I highly respect Eagle Dynamics and think it is a great company of professionals, doing tremendous job in a very specialized and complex field, for 33 years and counting.

I love DCS and think it is absolutely amazing flight simulator, a world class product with users ranging from students to professional militaries across the globe. It lets me get closer to the dream of flying high-energy aircraft with high fidelity, the one I'd not be able to do IRL. Dreams are priceless and I've spent 15 years with it, promoting it whenever I can and bringing my friends and their teenage kids into DCS too

I want both to succeed, be great for next 15 years or more, and maybe one day see a totally unbelievable next-generation flight sim we can't imagine possible today.

And to achieve this, ED needs to scale its revenue and funding to next level, 10x. Current model with fixed-price modules paid once by each user has reached its limits and won't support long-term success. Here's some data to back up this statement:

• ED is mostly focused on cranking out new modules as fast as they possibly can (because money need to come every month), leading to half-baked releases. We've already seen this happening.
• Flagship modules remain in "Early Availability" for 5+ years and are not getting finished. Because everyone interested has already bought them 5y ago, and they no longer generate substantial new revenue. We've already seen this happening.
• Quality takes a hit, with high-impact bugs in important areas gets introduced every few updates or stay non-fixed for years. Because earlier released modules were already bought by users and do not generate new revenue but only take precious capacity from very small team overburdened by a lot of very complex work in so many areas. We've already seen this happening.
• Highly wanted major new capabilities (Dynamic Campaign, GFM, etc) have been talked about for 5, sometimes 10 years, with nothing actually shipped. Because none of these would generate revenue, or maybe only very indirectly, in very limited amounts (not being sold as separate modules or products), since they are not real game-changers and have some alternatives. We've already seen this happening.
• Some very passionate, devoted contributors to DCS success, who have put many years and ton of money to make it better, resign and stop contributing. Because they get tired by fighting all the issues, missing capabilities, and creating make-believe setups with ton of very fragile scripting down to the seconds, which breaks every now and then. We've already seen this happening.
• Some long-term and passionate users, who has bought anything they can, now say "not buying EA stuff anymore". Because they start losing trust in ED to deliver on its promises, and this is very, very dangerous to ED as a business, since this does not expand the userbase (and revenue) but shrinks it. 

 

To address the monthly revenue problem, to pay for existing and new work, to scale the team, and to invest into the future-looking R&D, the proposal is for ED to change the pricing model. Instead of charging 80$ once per module, charge 5$ monthly for DCSW itself (which needs to pay for all the weather, sea land and air simulations and shared features such as DCE), and charge somewhere in few USD range monthly per module (assuming average lifespan of user engagement at 5 years, or maybe more?). Say 15$ monthly per user with 10 modules.

This might be unpopular, but the numbers above are just back-of-the-napkin estimates and can be adjusted for local market/regional purchasing power, based on more precise business math by ED.

And what are the alternative funding sources? Doubling ED MAU every year? I do my best but in a very niche product and high time investments needed, this is unlikely. Finding some rich person/charity donate 10M+ USD every year to ED? That would be nice but more of a dream than practical reality.

 

Please vote and comment.

[Furiz]

Oh my... another business advisor,

no thanks.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Furiz

[Tom Kazansky]

If it is good for ED to get less of my money per year they should change pricing to monthly subscription model.

[Czar66]

Kill me dead if this ever comes to reality.

37 minutes ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

And to achieve this, ED needs to scale its revenue and funding to next level, 10x. Current model with fixed-price modules paid once by each user has reached its limits and won't support long-term success.

So, what you're saying is that active users should fork 10x more money forcefully, just because... and you expect them, all of them to stick around?

The last thing a customer that has been away a couple months should face would be a need to open their wallet to be able to launch a mostly PvE videogame.

[Dangerzone]

This has been brought up numerous times, and ED have made it clear that they will not be switching to a subscription model. They've also made it clear that finance isn't an issue for them at the moment - and they have plenty - so the issue with "where is the DCE?" (which is where you created this thread from) is not financial, so this wouldn't help to see DCE any quicker.

Subscription would be the end of DCS for me. I love DCS, but I'm not going there. I quit Adobe when they went subscription (even though subscription was cheaper for me than buying every major upgrade that came out), and switched away to other products. (Never regretted it either - it forced me to find Davinci Resolve for video editing, which I absolutely love!). I know I'm not alone, and others have made it clear that if ED did - they'd be gone too. (Wouldn't surprise me if a ED Rep says this again, and locks this topic shortly )

I don't mind paying extra for new features. If DCE was a paid addon, like combined arms, I'd be fine with that too. I wouldn't even mind paying once-off's for major updates (such as DCS 3.0 being released), like <redacted> other simulators  - although I know that ED's business structure is different to this and I respect that too. 

Subscriptions just encourage companies to get lazy and lose incentive to develop as much - especially when there is no competition. It also disadvantages those who only play occasionally - and at the moment, I'm seeing within our group the average hours per week/month of DCS drop significantly, so a subscription would definitely be a bad move there. I honestly think that subscription would destroy DCS - not make it better, and I suspect ED know this too. 

Don't get me wrong - I believe there are some serious hurdles to overcome with the development of DCS - but it sounds like finance isn't one.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Dangerzone

[freehand]

op you have been here for 15 years you say so why did you start this thread  ?

[SharpeXB]

[MAXsenna]

Every six months... sort of, we get this post.
"DCS will never go subscription", is stated by ED reps every time in every thread.
Now, they have admitted, like you write, they need to release modules into EA to keep it going. So, instead of "yet another subscription thread", wouldn't it be better with some alternative ideas? Like merch? Can't believe ED doesn't have a merch shop! That's some serious missed income!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged. 

I am sorry but we have no plans for a subscription model. 

thank you 

 

[MAXsenna]

Historically correct livery DLCs. Assorted by nation and era.

Yeah, why not! Campaigns are for sale. Why not mod packs and liveries. "Will spiit the community", for sure. So what! The majority are SP players anyway. As many people have suggested before, give away less detailed assets for free for use in MP ONLY! Case closed!

EDIT: We were obviously writing our previous posts at the same time. I very much agree with what you posted before me!

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[MiG21bisFishbedL]

Forget beating it, let's atomize that dead horse.

I've still yet anyone present me with any argument as to how this would deliver value to long time customers, such as myself, or how this method would even offer a major change in the rate of output.

No, I'm not paying more on top of what I already have in order to slightly speed things along, if change anything at all.
No, I'm not altruistic, this is a transactional relationship between myself and a company whose product I enjoy.
No, I would not like the inconvenience of having to ensure I've paid up or force myself to get value out of a month's fee should I have the absolute audacity to take a break.
No, I'm not paying for liveries unless it's directly to an artist who is taking commissions to make them.
Yes, I would quit. It would be one of the most anti-consumer moves imaginable and could very well open them up to a civil suit.

For a company that has been in a very dynamic and even volatile industry since '91, this would be a devastating move. If DCS were to have a subscription, it needed it back in 2012, not 2024.

[MAXsenna]

57 minutes ago, Schlingel mit Kringel said:

Livery DLCs wouldn't even. 

Was reffering to asset packs/mods/ and payed liveries pack. Hell they could be installed of the computer but unusable. only displayed in MP even. Lots of opportunities up for grabs! 

 

42 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

No, I'm not paying for liveries unless it's directly to an artist who is taking commissions to make them.

Obviously! Just like 3rd parties!

[Dangerzone]

50 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Forget beating it, let's atomize that dead horse.

I've still yet anyone present me with any argument as to how this would deliver value to long time customers, such as myself, or how this method would even offer a major change in the rate of output.

We don't even have to go that far... ED have stated that their finance position is strong. How would 'making even more money' that ED doesn't need make any difference, except maybe add to Nick's collection of aircraft?  Not only isn't it beneficial to customers, it's not beneficial to ED's development either. 

Sure - if ED were in financial trouble then it might be worth considering how ED could gain extra finance, but ED has stated numerous times there is no financial issue, so it's absolutely pointless to talk about subscription models to make more money for ED to create a solution that's not going to address the perceived problems people are trying to address to start with. 

These discussions seem to come from a perspective that the lack of development in certain areas is because of financial hardship, and ignore all the things that ED reps have said over the past few years as to why development is slow - and not once has it been finance. 

[diego999]

I bought all my planes and modules and now I should keep paying monthly to use them.

Great idea my dude.

[scommander2]

I guess that the subscription model does not work with the steam users, right?

[upyr1]

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Every six months... sort of, we get this post.
"DCS will never go subscription", is stated by ED reps every time in every thread.
Now, they have admitted, like you write, they need to release modules into EA to keep it going. So, instead of "yet another subscription thread", wouldn't it be better with some alternative ideas? Like merch? Can't believe ED doesn't have a merch shop! That's some serious missed income!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Agreed, I for one would love to see some ED-branded model kits especially if the files used to create the kits could be used to produce assets. 

[MAXsenna]

Agreed, I for one would love to see some ED-branded model kits especially if the files used to create the kits could be used to produce assets. 

That would be pretty cool!

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[MiG21bisFishbedL]

4 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

Agreed, I for one would love to see some ED-branded model kits especially if the files used to create the kits could be used to produce assets. 

It's not the worst idea, but where's my incentive to buy them as opposed to buying from Tamiya, Hasegawa, Trumpeter, Meng, or some other maker? We'd be looking at a low run of products and kind of an eclectic variety.

Still, sure does beat the subscription since you get *SOMETHING* in return.

1 hour ago, scommander2 said:

I guess that the subscription model does not work with the steam users, right?

iRacing is on Steam, you can charge a subscription fee there.

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

It's not the worst idea, but where's my incentive to buy them as opposed to buying from Tamiya, Hasegawa, Trumpeter, Meng, or some other maker? We'd be looking at a low run of products and kind of an eclectic variety.

Ideally they work out a licencing agreement with some model manufacturer, that would keep the costs down. As for incentives, first the models would qualify for mile points and there would be a discount code when there is a module and model for a given aircraft (or other vehicle). 

 

[cfrag]

Well, there are many directions to go , and I think we all know that no matter which direction ED take, there will be detractors. To me it is becoming increasingly apparent that a lack of sustained, steady income is eroding the base product - which happens to be the free product. Coincidence? I don't think so, others do.

To add my own 2 cents to the heap of unrequested advice: I'd suggest a split approach to start the migration: offer a free DCS for anyone interested to get them hooked. And a 'pro' version, with subscription that enables additional features like Multiplay with more than 4 people, has "save and resume" for missions, and other amenities that slowly trickle down to the free version over time, but are available to 'pro' first. 

Will that make everyone happy? Hell no. But given the choice of keeping a great game in the future (and pay a subscription fee), or see DCS become more and more obsolete, I will choose the to me more expensive route. One thing is certain: I will continue to play great flight sims in the future. I'm hoping it will be DCS. It's current trajectory sadly is (to me) discouraging.

 

Edited December 10, 2024 by cfrag