New Pay Model

[slughead]

2 minutes ago, SMH said:

You can put it into Offline mode but... yeah. (Not a big deal for me as I mostly fly multiplayer and obviously that can't work without their central servers either. Offline I mostly use for learning new aircraft and if there's no new aircraft then... meh!)

Isn’t that only for a couple of days? After that you have to authenticate it with the server again.

[SMH]

Just now, slughead said:

Isn’t that only for a couple of days? After that you have to authenticate it with the server again.

No. That's if you lose the net or if ED's servers go down. Putting it into Offline mode (click the radio tower icon at the top of the main screen) basically "signs out" your licenses to that one machine until it reconnects again. Forever (or until the machine breaks or is otherwise lost - at that point you'd need to ask ED to reenable your licenses and hope they believe your story). 

[slughead]

14 minutes ago, SMH said:

No. That's if you lose the net or if ED's servers go down. Putting it into Offline mode (click the radio tower icon at the top of the main screen) basically "signs out" your licenses to that one machine until it reconnects again. Forever (or until the machine breaks or is otherwise lost - at that point you'd need to ask ED to reenable your licenses and hope they believe your story). 

Oh right ok. But nonetheless, still dependent on ED being around despite having paid for the software. I find that concerning.

[SharpeXB]

It’s a computer game. At some point it will stop working. It’s not like a DVD you bought 25 years ago. How many games do you have from 25 years ago that still run?

Edited April 29 by SharpeXB

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s a computer game. At some point it will stop working. It’s not like a DVD you bought 25 years ago. How many games do you have from 25 years ago that still run?

 

All of them to be honest. When they don't run on Windows 10, they run in a VM or have gotten the GOG treatment.

But I agree to a certain degree. Wether we like it or not, even without a subscribtion, with DCS we only buy licences and not physical goods. Those licences are bound to a service, and when the provider - for whatever reason - cease to exist.... We're out of luck.

Modern times, gotta love 'em. 

p.s.

Folks should really read the EULAs

[SharpeXB]

I find it amusing how many people seem to know all the inner workings of ED's business and cash flow

[SMH]

26 minutes ago, slughead said:

Oh right ok. But nonetheless, still dependent on ED being around despite having paid for the software. I find that concerning.

Not if you put it into Offline before they go "poof". (Of course that requires some discipline and/or psychic ability. LOL!)

[slughead]

17 minutes ago, SMH said:

Not if you put it into Offline before they go "poof". (Of course that requires some discipline and/or psychic ability. LOL!)

I have two crystal balls on my desk. They’re quite difficult to master. Still learning.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

42 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s a computer game. At some point it will stop working. It’s not like a DVD you bought 25 years ago. How many games do you have from 25 years ago that still run?

 

Most, actually. Though has more to do with games from that era possessing gamespy as the only real internet dependency and that can be circumvented by a private master server or a VPN like GameRanger or Tunngle. I can still install Homeworld, Cataclysm, Unreal, the Thief series, you name it. I even have Flanker 2.5 installed and it runs fine, though it's always a wise idea to go find a new sourceport or fix just to get widescreen support as that's the only consistent issue. Honestly, if there are classic games you'd like to revisit? Hit up GoG and then the game's forums to find any potential recommended fixes. It's worth it!

Anyways, back onto topic:

The real thing that hamstrings a game and limits its longevity is the dependency on online services. A subscription service furthers that dependency and can drives away these particular players. A model like World of <Insert crap here> or War Thunder is probably the worst: Can't host private servers, dependent on tons of microtransactions, etc.

Both approaches would alienate a big enough chunk of the consumer base to actually be an existential threat to DCS World, and the communications we get from ED on this topic indicate that pretty clearly.

Publishers hate PC players paying an upfront, single time fee. They like that little drip feed since they can get so much more out of you over time. I've read a number of opinion pieces and have had shareholder documents shown to me that they easily get 4 times a standard game MSRP if the game is free to play and supported via microtransactions. It's absolutely predatory. It encourages developmental laziness while ensuring a large portion of a player base will provide what is, in essence, a new game purchase spent regularly while not having a new game made at the same time.

Another reason they detest us is because when we find a game we like? We're going to play it. For years. The best example? Falcon 4.0. How many still play that and even still play Allied Force? It doesn't have a closed ecosystem of servers providing you matchmaking, it can't lock off major sections of content behind arbitrary experience grinds, it doesn't require a monthly fee for access, so it was completely cut off from the publisher once it launched. They can't shut it down, they can't tell us "IT'S BEEN FUN GUYEZZ" in some fake sentimentality post on social media.

They have no control over it. They want that so they can force you away from an older product and to buy newer product, frequently seen as inferior. That's why they really love the F2P model, it forces the player to be completely subject to that publisher/developer's particular digital fiefdom. They can retire and stop service whenever they want. Sure, there are ubernerds who can flex their skills and make them run on private servers, but the game's still dead and you'll never see it at full potential ever gain. Time to move onto the next slot machine, I guess?

The only 2 games with ethical free-to-play scheme that I have played are DCS World, which charges what they want in total upfront while also providing ample price reductions during sales and the ability to try out a product, free, for a limited time and the other is Warframe, who doesn't have a long grind for the most part, has solid action, and a very simple monetization scheme that doesn't bar access to anything save for a few cosmetics and, in practice, only really affects inventory space.

 

Edited April 29 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[Roughneck]

On 4/28/2024 at 12:10 AM, Vector1 said:

Apollonaut , GO AWAY PLEASE, idiot

Why so rude and douchy to a guy who's just trying to come up with ideas and solutions??

Edited April 29 by Roughneck

[Roughneck]

I would 100% pay $15 a month for a subscription if it meant I had access to EVERYTHING and never had to buy another module, map, or campaign again!  And especially if the guaranteed monthly revenue for ED and the third party devs meant a better product in the end!  Just my two cents...which isn't worth spit.

Edited April 29 by Roughneck

[Vee.A]

10 hours ago, sirrah said:

Perhaps I'm unaware of some kind of history about the OP, or maybe I'm just naïve, but I'm a bit surprised on the amount or toxicity in this thread (especially as I've never seen this kind of behaviour from some of the people that responded to this thread).

 

Admittedly, the whole "I got fat" part was weird and unnecessary, but it seems the guy is pretty green/new here, yet presumably posted his/her idea with good intentions (even though, like everyone here, I don't agree at all with this idea). I expect he has never seen any of the other discussions about this topic, or else I assume he wouldn't have gone through the trouble of posting this essay.

 

So, even though pretty much nobody wants a monthly subscription model for DCS, why is there so much hostility in all these reactions? Have I missed some sort of trolling history with this guy or something?

Agreed. You can be firm with your opinions without being rude.

One thing I've noticed with many people that are pro-subscription is that they almost seem to assume that older modules make next to no money and therefore become a net loss due to maintenance, which forces them to make new rushed products. Is that really true? The Hornet for example is 6 years old now and is still the most popular module. It's a gift that keeps on giving for ED. And as much as there is to complain about the sim, I've seen ED be pretty good with updating and maintaining their products. I don't really see the "rushed module releases that are abandoned" trend. They all seem to get a lot of work. The super-carrier is a bit of an exception, though I do wonder if part of the issue with the super-carrier was them having to wait on other core upgrades to be done, and also the general difficulty with implementing certain novel features, rather than it being part of an overall trend of module development.

As for us losing all our modules if ED closes shop, I wonder if they would just remove the authentication system completely if that happens.

[SMH]

31 minutes ago, Vee.A said:

I wonder if they would just remove the authentication system completely if that happens.

[Vee.A]

4 minutes ago, SMH said:

[Esac_mirmidon]

On 4/28/2024 at 12:21 AM, Doughguy said:

The moment subscription comes, im off.

Absolutely the same here

[fortheiy12]

The moment subscription comes, im off.

Not even bothering with such a thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hiob]

"What do they mean, 'A' wrong-way -driver? ...there are hundreds of them!" 

[Dangerzone]

15 hours ago, Vee.A said:

As for us losing all our modules if ED closes shop, I wonder if they would just remove the authentication system completely if that happens.

I know you have replies laughing at this, but your closer to the mark than those mocking your question.  The post/link below is the most official answer I'm aware of re that scenario, and it's a positive one.

 

Although let's hope that it never happens, because even though ED will do their best to make sure we can continue playing DCS - it's Microsoft I don't trust not to break something requiring a recompile, tweak, etc. Just look at what they're doing to WMR...

Fact is - I suspect we would need ED to continue to maintain it, otherwise Microsoft will break something at some stage, and with no dev's to fix it in DCS - the life would be limited. 

 

Edit: It's also worth noting in that post that Nineline said "That said we are very very healthy right now and continuing to grow and get stronger". That was only 12 months ago. 

Edited April 30 by Dangerzone

[Slippa]

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Dude! You were out of line. I got my first hit points the other day, because I was rude and called someone something I shouldn't have. Well deserved. I just move on.

Congrats, I got my first points the other day too. I made a poor ‘joke’ with a Cheech & Chong style thing and got spanked for it. Surprised me but when I thought about it it was fair enough. Same as you, I’ll take my spankings when they’re fair. That fella or ‘account’ made me chuckle when I read it this morning though. Telling someone to go f themselves and wish them good luck in the same sentence . Silly and pointless.

[jungleboy123]

No subscription model please. I've already forked out on most modules, so there's a lot of us out there i suspect who will be at a disadvantage.

For a subscription model to work it should have been done early on. Now its not to say if a new engine or entire game comes out then maybe that could work.

I am not sure how sustainable the existing DCS engine is. If you look at Bohemia Interactive with ARMA, they took the 2001 engine and ran it down to hell until ARMA 3 in 2013. They've now moved to a new engine but it is taking a considerable time to rebuild everything. I suspect ED is in the same place, but they are sticking with their own engine for now.

[Czar66]

I'm out if a subscription model hits as soon as it hits. The world is already messed up on that front, I don't need it on this little digital hobby. [that I love a lot, but that's not enough]

On 4/29/2024 at 10:28 AM, slughead said:

Isn’t that only for a couple of days? After that you have to authenticate it with the server again.

It is unlimited. But relies on your machine ID for your account come back to online. If your machine ID changes (hardware failure, dismount and re mount hardware in different slots/ports, hardware upgrade) without going online first, you'll need to contact support.

Steam version is limited to 3 days but needs successful authentication to access DCS in any shape or form.

If you're out of internet access and is not in offline mode, both formats, stand alone version and steam version, has the 3 day tolerance >>after your last successful login<< unless you updated DCS files and haven't been able to successfully log in. In the later scenario, you're locked out of your modules unless you at least successfully log in once in the current build installed before losing connection.

Edited April 30 by Czar66
English grammar

[Beirut]

On 4/27/2024 at 5:55 PM, freehand said:

Please do not drink before posting on the forum thanks.

 

Indeed. Better to drink while flying. 

 

Drink responsibly and fly irresponsibly. That's the ballgame. 

[Dragon1-1]

9 hours ago, jungleboy123 said:

I suspect ED is in the same place, but they are sticking with their own engine for now.

ED's engine is actually a lot newer, they didn't just develop the Flanker engine until it reached critical mass. I've been around ArmA, and let me tell you, RV was an interdependent mess of technical debt, not unusual for an engine written in 2001. One big deal that DCS has and RV does not is a modular architecture, ED can yank a chunk out of it, for instance the graphics system or AI (for modern jets and WWII separately, even!), and rewrite it separately from everything else. Try that with RV and the whole thing would collapse, because parts of the code reference each other with reckless abandon, and a fix to a bug in one system can create a bug in another, seemingly unrelated one. Other than triggers being ridiculously brittle, in DCS, if something breaks, it's usually related to work being done on the thing that broke. That's not to say there are no interdependencies, but they seem to be manageable. Of course, DCS as a whole is still not on the most modern paradigm, but it seems that the code remains in a maintainable state. So I wouldn't say this is a situation where they would have even needed to consider a "toss and replace" approach.

[Silver_Dragon]

20 hours ago, jungleboy123 said:

I am not sure how sustainable the existing DCS engine is. If you look at Bohemia Interactive with ARMA, they took the 2001 engine and ran it down to hell until ARMA 3 in 2013. They've now moved to a new engine but it is taking a considerable time to rebuild everything. I suspect ED is in the same place, but they are sticking with their own engine for now.

The exiting DCS engine has noting to do with flanker.

• The Flanker engine was a old engine, no based on Direct X (SuperVGA)
• Lomac was engine based on 8.1 engine.
• DCS World (2012) was based on Dx9 engine. Update to Dx11 on version 1.5 on 2015. Multithreat / DLSS / FSR on 2.9 on 2023, Incoming Vulkan engine.

Edited May 1 by Silver_Dragon

[Akula]

On 4/27/2024 at 6:35 PM, AvgeekJoe said:

I'm all for a subscription model on three tiers using Flaming Cliffs 2024 (FC 2024) as the entry-level hook:

Tier One: Pay one annual or monthly subscription and get everything.  USD 100 annually or $12 monthly sounds good.  I'd pay $25 or so monthly to get this tier.

Tier Two: There is a much lower fee; get only FC 2024, a few maps, and whatever freebies are compatible.

Tier Three: FC 2024, Caucus plus Nevada maps, and that's it.  $4.99 a month/$50 year.

Oh, and for this to work, there will be no sales on getting into Tier One/full access.

 

In one word - NOPE.