F4 PHANTOM

[Northstar98]

40 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

I really don't see the lack of early/mid cold war assets as a good argument against not having a Phantom from the era, provided we get assets too.

That's why.

40 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

I've said it mutliple times the question we should be asking isn't what is the bare minimum we want phantom wise but the ideal variants we would like to buy. No matter what era Phantom we get, if we have Navy only we will  have folks upset about not getting a USAF version and if we get a USAF version people will want a Navy version. You get late models to pair the MiG-21 BIS and people will want earlier ones to go with the MiG-19. 

I agree, so personally, I'm more on the side of, what suits DCS the best, right now?

And for me personally, that's a late USAF E, followed by a USN S or J, followed by earlier Es, followed by other variants.

[upyr1]

26 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

I really don't see the lack of early/mid cold war assets as a good argument against not having a Phantom from the era, provided we get assets too.

That's why.

I think we're more likely to get the assets if we show interest 

 

26 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

I agree, so personally, I'm more on the side of, what suits DCS the best, right now?

And for me personally, that's a late USAF E, followed by a USN S or J, followed by earlier Es, followed by other variants.

I hope we can get a British Phantom and carrier for the Falklands. I know that wouldn't be historically correct but I'd still love a carrier show down

[rkk01]

There is an Ark Royal mod under way… looks very good so far

Edited December 12, 2021 by rkk01

[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

I think we're more likely to get the assets if we show interest

True as far as "more likely goes", but new assets are something that develops at a glacial pace, and don't forget all of the legacy, long outdated assets (some as old as me or not far off it), that have been in dire need of replacement for the last decades.

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

I hope we can get a British Phantom and carrier for the Falklands. I know that wouldn't be historically correct but I'd still love a carrier show down

I'm a fan of British Phantoms (hell I used to live barely a km away from what was then, RAF Leuchars, a former RAF Phantom base in Scotland flying the F-4K Phantom FG.1), there were some based on the Falklands, after the war sure, but it would be good from an alternate history standpoint IMO.

My main issue with UK Phantoms is that they didn't really do anything, and for me their missions weren't all that interesting until after the carriers went, I don't know, but for me personally, QRA over the GIUK gap and CAS and air defence over Germany floats my boat a bit better, pardon the pun.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Northstar98

[upyr1]

2 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

I'm a fan of British Phantoms (hell I used to live barely a km away from what was then, RAF Leuchars, a former RAF Phantom base in Scotland flying the F-4K Phantom FG.1), there were some based on the Falklands, after the war sure, but it would be good from an alternate history standpoint IMO.

My main issue with UK Phantoms is that they didn't really do anything, and for me their missions weren't all that interesting until after the carriers went, I don't know, but for me personally, QRA over the GIUK gap and CAS and air defence over Germany floats my boat a bit better, pardon the pun.

The RAF Phantoms would be cool as well. 

[Joe Hallenbeck]

Ok there are two choices, if we will count Vietnam era Phantoms. USAF and NAVY Phantoms. The choice is dependent on Vietnam area. USAF Phantoms took off from Thailand or South Nam, NAVY from Tonkin Gulf. Now check how large is the Vietnam area (not counting Thailand). There is no chance to model whole area in one map in actual engine (south airbases for F-4C/D/E's), I guess. So a NAVY Phantom based on a carrier at Tonkin gulf is much more logical choice (not needed modeled so large area - only North Vietnam and sea), also due to A-7, F-8, A-6 modules.

 

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Joe Hallenbeck said:

Ok there are two choices, if we will count Vietnam era Phantoms. USAF and NAVY Phantoms. The choice is dependent on Vietnam area. USAF Phantoms took off from Thailand or South Nam, NAVY from Tonkin Gulf. Now check how large is the Vietnam area (not counting Thailand). There is no chance to model whole area in one map in actual engine (south airbases for F-4C/D/E's), I guess. So a NAVY Phantom based on a carrier at Tonkin gulf is much more logical choice (not needed modeled so large area - only North Vietnam and sea), also due to A-7, F-8, A-6 modules.

 

You could also have USAF Phantoms operating in South Vietnam.  No matter how large the map we would be dealing with the real problem would be the jungle. I do agree Naval phantoms would be nice to round out the carrier air wing especially if all the naval mods come with carriers. Though the C and D would be great in that module 

[TotenDead]

5 часов назад, Joe Hallenbeck сказал:

Ok there are two choices, if we will count Vietnam era Phantoms. USAF and NAVY Phantoms. The choice is dependent on Vietnam area. USAF Phantoms took off from Thailand or South Nam, NAVY from Tonkin Gulf. Now check how large is the Vietnam area (not counting Thailand). There is no chance to model whole area in one map in actual engine (south airbases for F-4C/D/E's), I guess. So a NAVY Phantom based on a carrier at Tonkin gulf is much more logical choice (not needed modeled so large area - only North Vietnam and sea), also due to A-7, F-8, A-6 modules.

 

Let me remind you that we have F-86 and MiG-15bis, but we dont have Korea map. 

And even the f-86 we have is post korean war iirc

[WobblyFlops]

14 hours ago, Joe Hallenbeck said:

A-7, F-8, A-6 modules

The A-7 and the A-6 will likely be 80s, post Vietnam variants. For the A-7 this is confirmed and for the A-6, it's heavily implied that HB are looking into making a TRAM model if there's sufficient data for it. The only situation where we may end up with a VIetnam variant of any kind is if there's not enough data to model the TRAM.

[Northstar98]

4 hours ago, WobblyFlops said:

... for the A-6, it's heavily implied that HB are looking into making a TRAM model if there's sufficient data for it.

If all of the current screenshots are anything to go by, they appear to depict at least a TRAM w. AN/AAS-33 DRS (c. 1979 at the earliest).

IIRC the decision was between the TRAM/DRS (c. 1979), WCSI (c. ~1985) and SWIP (c. 1988/89).

The SWIP best fits HB's current Forrestal, which is post SLEP (the SLEP taking place from mid November 1982 to mid-to-late May 1985), circa 90s fit. Vietnam on the other hand was pre-SLEP, with significant differences between armament and sensors.

As for the Phantom, it was last on the Forrestal in the early 80s, before Forrestal entered its SLEP (Service Life Extension Program), which lasted between mid-November 1982 to mid-to-late May 1985). From before SLEP to after SLEP there's a significant differences in sensors and armament.

Our Forrestal on the other hand is depicted circa 1990-1993 (Mk15 Phalanx CIWS Block 1).

Just for reference, the F-4S was the last Phantom on Forrestal, and they left when Forrestal went into SLEP, after SLEP, they were replaced by F-14As.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Northstar98

[Bremspropeller]

22 hours ago, Joe Hallenbeck said:

USAF Phantoms took off from Thailand or South Nam, NAVY from Tonkin Gulf.

Or Marines Phantoms from South Vietnam, or Navy Phantoms from Dixie Station off South Vietnam...

 

Come on, I know y'all want it, too...

And the late days of USN Phantom ops

And there's even a shot of Guam in the background

Edited December 14, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[Bremspropeller]

Ever seen a Vigi dump'n'burn?

 

Some more great footage of the type of Air Wing I keep dreaming about.

 

 

[QuiGon]

Edited December 24, 2021 by QuiGon

[Gunslinger1-1]

DCS: 2022 and Beyond!

[ebabil]

Are there any other planes that use same gun sight ? I just want to be sure that it is coming finally

[WinterH]

33 minutes ago, ebabil said:

Are there any other planes that use same gun sight ? I just want to be sure that it is coming finally

F-104, F-105. Also I think it's not entirely clear from just the pipper whether it'd be F-4E or other variants.

Pretty safe bet that it was teasing the phantom and not the other two though.

[bies]

@upyr1and @Northstar98have good arguments for 1980s Phantom to saturate 1980s late Cold War era in DCS.

On the other hand there is one counterargument i can't find solution: in 1980s F-4 Phantom was already badly outdated, nearly completely replaced by F-14 and F-15 in combat units, in A/A department it would be a "whipping boy" or at least a poor cousin of an F-14 and F-15. It wouldn't be a glory but the fight to just survive and F-4 Phantom was once the most powerful fighter in the world in mid-late 1960s.

So maybe early 1970s, (just like MiG-21bis, F-5E, Mirage F.1C, F-8J) has its place being able to show it's potential in air combat. Maybe changes to model both are not too big.

 

(Cold War servers already noticed proper 1980s aircrafts like F-14B, MiG-29A, F-15C, Su-27S are too powerful compared to 1970s F-5E, MiG-21bis and future Mirage F.1, F-8J and often dividing them. During the Cold War one decade was like three decades now.)

Edited December 25, 2021 by bies

[QuiGon]

ED/Belsimtek have been working on an F-4E between ~2016 and ~2019, before they put the project on hold. I guess they have now resumed working on it.

Edited December 25, 2021 by QuiGon

[upyr1]

4 hours ago, ebabil said:

Are there any other planes that use same gun sight ? I just want to be sure that it is coming finally

 

3 hours ago, WinterH said:

F-104, F-105. Also I think it's not entirely clear from just the pipper whether it'd be F-4E or other variants.

Pretty safe bet that it was teasing the phantom and not the other two though.

It's not the crusader and the only other fighter that has been rumoured has been the Phantom. 

[Silver_Dragon]

12 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

 

It's not the crusader and the only other fighter that has been rumoured has been the Phantom. 

The F-8 crusader has actually no ready to a release by Leatherneck / M3, more centred on complete the F4U Corsair first. The Phantom modules has some years talking about them. Bsk was planned a F-4E Blk 43 and HB surelly go to make a navy phantom. The problem has.... The pipper show on 2022 and beyond video has a ED module or a 3rd party module?. Kate talk the F-4 Phantom coming to DCS.

Edited December 25, 2021 by Silver_Dragon

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, bies said:

@upyr1and @Northstar98have good arguments for 1980s Phantom to saturate 1980s late Cold War era in DCS.

On the other hand there is one counterargument i can't find solution: in 1980s F-4 Phantom was already badly outdated, nearly completely replaced by F-14 and F-15 in combat units, in A/A department it would be a "whipping boy" or at least a poor cousin of an F-14 and F-15. It wouldn't be a glory but the fight to just survive and F-4 Phantom was once the most powerful fighter in the world in mid-late 1960s.

So maybe early 1970s, (just like MiG-21bis, F-5E, Mirage F.1C, F-8J) has its place being able to show it's potential in air combat. Maybe changes to model both are not too big.

 

(Cold War servers already noticed proper 1980s aircrafts like F-14B, MiG-29A, F-15C, Su-27S are too powerful compared to 1970s F-5E, MiG-21bis and future Mirage F.1, F-8J and often dividing them. During the Cold War one decade was like three decades now.)

 

I'm trying to see where I was arguing specifically for a 1980s Phantom, from what I remember writing I have been arguing for as many Phantoms as possible, to at least have a good career highlight reel. You may have guessed from my profile pic what my all-time favorite fighter is.  If we only get one block of the E model I want an E model that saw service in the Linebacker campaigns that had the longest service life afterwards. I have pointed out that the USAF started hanging target pods on their Phantoms in the Vietnam era  

[upyr1]

18 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

The F-8 crusader has actually no ready to a release by Leatherneck / M3, more centred on complete the F4U Corsair first. The Phantom modules has some years talking about them. Bsk was planned a F-4E Blk 43 and HB surelly go to make a navy phantom. The problem has.... The pipper show on 2022 and beyond video has a ED module or a 3rd party module?. Kate talk the F-4 Phantom coming to DCS.

 

The F-8's release date doesn't change the fact this is what the crusader's gunsight looks like.

So even if Leatherneck had plans to release the F-8 tomorrow there is no way that could be the Crusader. So going by Kate's words it's the Phantom

[Northstar98]

3 hours ago, bies said:

@upyr1and @Northstar98have good arguments for 1980s Phantom to saturate 1980s late Cold War era in DCS.

On the other hand there is one counterargument i can't find solution: in 1980s F-4 Phantom was already badly outdated, nearly completely replaced by F-14 and F-15 in combat units, in A/A department it would be a "whipping boy" or at least a poor cousin of an F-14 and F-15. It wouldn't be a glory but the fight to just survive and F-4 Phantom was once the most powerful fighter in the world in mid-late 1960s.

True, but by then the F-4E had more been relegated to A/G rather than A/A, where it had been completely eclipsed by the F-15 in the WVR and BVR fight (though it would've had the same A/A armament as the F-15, but obviously the RADAR is way superior in the F-15) and the F-16 in the WVR fight.

The AG options are far more impressive; still very much Cold War stuff (with Paveway II and early Mavericks at best, depending how far into the 80s you go, potentially GBU-15), it's one of the few platforms that had a targetting pod (though much more rudimentary).

And so long as we can get earlier Sparrow (AIM-7E-2/3) and earlier Sidewinders (AIM-9J), we're pretty much perfectly able to replicate the A/A capabilities of earlier F-4Es. It's one thing that's good about these older aircraft, is that they can approximate older aircraft better than modern ones. It's much more plausible to approximate a 70s F-4E with even a late 80s one (aside from ARN-101). AFAIK, you've got the same RADAR, same engines, same aerodynamics, same weight; the main difference to my knowledge is going to be ARN-101 (which I think was '77).

Preferably any TGP implementation, should be done exactly like the Tomcat, whereby the controls for them get removed if they're unequipped (though AN/AVQ-23 Pave Spike is what, mid 70s?)

3 hours ago, bies said:

So maybe early 1970s, (just like MiG-21bis, F-5E, Mirage F.1C, F-8J) has its place being able to show it's potential in air combat. Maybe changes to model both are not too big.

They're more or less the same from most angles, it's really just weapons (TGP) integration and ARN-101 that's different AFAIK. 

3 hours ago, bies said:

(Cold War servers already noticed proper 1980s aircrafts like F-14B, MiG-29A, F-15C, Su-27S are too powerful compared to 1970s F-5E, MiG-21bis and future Mirage F.1, F-8J and often dividing them. During the Cold War one decade was like three decades now.)

Well, speaking personally, I'm not interested in absolute balance, I'm interested in having a coherent era set, that could be any era, but right now I'm most interested in the late Cold War (mid 70s to late 80s).

And it's unsurprising people are having an issue with these 2 aircraft sets, it's the gap between gen IV and gen III, and all of the gen IV stuff is BVR capable (even if restricted to only fox 1s), whereas the latter have negligible BVR capability (save for maybe the Mirage F1, though it's got nothing on the gen IV stuff), and far less capable RADARs.

[Mogster]

On 12/14/2021 at 12:25 AM, Bremspropeller said:

Or Marines Phantoms from South Vietnam, or Navy Phantoms from Dixie Station off South Vietnam...

 

Come on, I know y'all want it, too...

And the late days of USN Phantom ops

And there's even a shot of Guam in the background

 

At the start of video 3 the pilot is holding up and apparently inserting an an audio cassette. What’s that about?

[QuiGon]

12 minutes ago, Mogster said:

At the start of video 3 the pilot is holding up and apparently inserting an an audio cassette. What’s that about?

That's for the soundtrack.

In the Super Hornet you can select the soundtrack on the UFC panel, as can be seen at the beginning of this video:

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by QuiGon