'Crunch Time' and health and well-being of developers

[112th_Rossi]

So the super carrier is delayed. I'm fine with this.

 

What I have issue with is the possible 'crunch time' development that developers may have to endure under ED.

 

No one should have to sacrifice time with their families or time for themselves just because a product is 'late'. Deadlines are arbitrary and made up to sometimes unrealistic timescales. Work changes, problems arise and deadlines are missed. This is life.

 

Please please ensure that the developers are looked after and that they are not forced to work hours they could otherwise be spending on more important life things.

 

Thanks.

[Kang]

Well, to be fair, 'crunch time' as a concept is quite prevalent in all parts of the software industry and is probably something a developer expects when picking that career, so I wouldn't quite talk about 'enduring under ED'.

 

Doesn't mean you don't have a point about it, I think a lot of us do understand things got a little bit rattled by the general situation right now anyway.

[FZG_Immel]

delayed ? says who ???

[TLTeo]

delayed ? says who ???

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=269757

 

 

Re the OP: yeah, the crunch time thing is everywhere in the gaming industry and software development in general. It's unfortunate and honestly shouldn't happen.

[QuiGon]

So the super carrier is delayed. I'm fine with this.

 

What I have issue with is the possible 'crunch time' development that developers may have to endure under ED.

 

No one should have to sacrifice time with their families or time for themselves just because a product is 'late'. Deadlines are arbitrary and made up to sometimes unrealistic timescales. Work changes, problems arise and deadlines are missed. This is life.

 

Please please ensure that the developers are looked after and that they are not forced to work hours they could otherwise be spending on more important life things.

 

Thanks.

Indeed, I find it pretty sad that the devs have to work overtime now, just because some people on the forums here can't control themselves... :(

It's just a game afterall and life doesn't depend on it...

[FZG_Immel]

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=269757

 

 

Re the OP: yeah, the crunch time thing is everywhere in the gaming industry and software development in general. It's unfortunate and honestly shouldn't happen.

 

thanks. so that and commented. 2 if not 3rd delay. I am very disappointed

[FZG_Immel]

Indeed, I find it pretty sad that the devs have to work overtime now, just because some people on the forums here can't control themselves... :(

It's just a game afterall and life doesn't depend on it...

 

yeah, respecting deal conditions is such a bad expectation for people to have..

 

I think the fact that this is not the 1st delay might have something to do with people being unhappy and vocal about it.

[Larkis]

No need for a crunch would be an awesome dream. But sadly it dont match with reality.

The point is that you really cant estimate how long a project need to be finished. Mostly you can guess it but there could allways be something that put you off the rail.

But mostly deathlines are fix and not changeable. So you need to crunch. that is how the job works.

 

Simple examples: You build websites and sell them.

 

Example 1: Your customer is a restaurant which change the food and styling and want his website to match that. So on reopening day the new website must go online. Now you got ill for 2 Weeks, klling a lot time you need to finish the website. Now you need to crunch to get erverything right.

 

Example 2: You get an order for a website with some fance stuff. You estimate 60 Days for production and calculate the payment on it. Now if you need longer then 60h you loose money. Then the fancy stuff is fancier then calculatet prior, you need 80h to finish it. What are you do? Working unpayed overtime or start to rush things to keep inside the 60hours.

 

 

 

Even on that basic level you cant avoid the crunch. Its part of the job.

[QuiGon]

yeah, respecting deal conditions is such a bad expectation for people to have..

 

I think the fact that this is not the 1st delay might have something to do with people being unhappy and vocal about it.

Nowhere in any conditions of your "deal" did it guarantee a release on April 15th. Maybe you should read the conditions of your deal again...

[mdee]

Well, to be fair, 'crunch time' as a concept is quite prevalent in all parts of the software industry and is probably something a developer expects when picking that career, so I wouldn't quite talk about 'enduring under ED'.

 

Doesn't mean you don't have a point about it, I think a lot of us do understand things got a little bit rattled by the general situation right now anyway.

 

To be fair it's outdated and harmful concept and very few reputable game dev companies would do it these days.

 

It's been proven over and over that crunch is counterproductive too.

[Pikey]

Overtime is quite an old fashioned concept, it's going away now in the private sector, gone are the days when my contract had overtime clauses, now they just have "work reasonably as required". At least that's the UK posture, other countries like Germany don't mess with people as much and their unions are stronger.

However suggesting the forums are making developers slave away, which was the tone I got from the OP, isn't correct. This is down to ED's leadership team and whether they think it's justified and it is quite unusual, software across the world is in a constant state of slipped timelines.

 

 

I'm kindda surprised the word was mentioned. It might not be a literal translation, and it might apply to one day, one person or a figure of speech.

 

 

 

I'm still dealing with a feature that we promised more than a year ago to a customer and the business changed so much it looks like it will be dropped completely and we'll lose that customer (and the product makes a lot of money). Honestly there is nothing unusual going on, if anything I think a developer would absolutely love to have overtime, if that is really on the table, I know I would.

[Catweedle]

To be fair it's outdated and harmful concept and very few reputable game dev companies would do it these days.

 

It's been proven over and over that crunch is counterproductive too.

 

The concept is old, the rather negatively associated term crunch (time) not so. I do agree, though, that repeatedly crunching a bag of chips usually results in a mess. Fingers crossed ED does not end up like that.

[Psydshow]

With software development you have three levers to pull.

 

Time - you can fix a date

Cost - you can fix how much you want to spend on this

Scope - you can fix what it is you want to deliver

 

You can only have two of those three.

 

The crunch comes when people want to have all three of them, which, btw is an undeliverable dream/fantasy and doomed to fail. Proven to fail, time and time again.

[RustBelt]

Has ED ever worked under Crunch? Did they say they were going to push hours to finish? Because I saw "Two More Weeks" not OMG we'll have it Friday!

 

Also Pikey, that's a terrible employment contract that uses such weasel wording as "work reasonably as required" You may as well not have a contract like us poor suckers in US "Work at Will" states.

Edited April 16, 2020 by RustBelt

[Mike Busutil]

Who said the devs will now all of a sudden have to work overtime or put in extra hours?

 

They have been working on the Super Carrier for many months or years already, why would they be "forced to work hours they could otherwise be spending on more important life things" or "sacrifice time with their families".

 

Don't falsely make ED out to be slave drivers...

[QuiGon]

Did they say they were going to push hours to finish?

Yes, they did say so, which is the reason for this thread:

DCS: Supercarrier

 

We have been working hard towards the announced release date of April 15th. Sadly, we were unable to work through all the issues in order to ensure a satisfactory Early Access release.

 

The main “no-go” for me and I am sure for you too, is Multiplayer behavior which still suffers from certain non-game breaker bugs which were confirmed on Saturday, April 11th. Today we have a new plan and will be working overtime to bring you this long-awaited product. I actively follow the threads, in particular “April 15th 2020” and I understand how disappointed you are, but I am confident you will agree that Multiplayer needs a bit more love.

[Mike Busutil]

They could of been working on the SC for 2 hrs per day. Now that they "will be working overtime" they will be putting 4 hrs into it per day...

 

Non of Kate's post says the devs will be chained to a chair and forced to be away from their family or work 20 hrs a day. Relax...

[QuiGon]

They could of been working on the SC for 2 hrs per day. Now that they "will be working overtime" they will be putting 4 hrs into it per day...

 

Non of Kate's post says the devs will be chained to a chair and forced to be away from their family or work 20 hrs a day. Relax...

I guess everyone knows the common meaning of "working overtime"...

[BIGNEWY]

The teams are passionate about what they do and are working hard, even in this difficult time with team members working from home, but health and family are important and ED know that.

 

Thanks

[Dav IRL]

The delay is no big deal. The fact that the team are working hard in such a difficult situation is admirable. I am always grateful for the updates and new options, modules and systems and like many others I have put countless hours into DCS. I wish the team good health and fully understand the delay.

[BIGNEWY]

The delay is no big deal. The fact that the team are working hard in such a difficult situation is admirable. I am always grateful for the updates and new options, modules and systems and like many others I have put countless hours into DCS. I wish the team good health and fully understand the delay.

 

Thanks for the support, and keep your self safe and healthy.

[Eldur]

In your world you can't have "developers" without "crunch time". Get real.

 

Even more so a reason to wish them a stay-safe and health

[Mars Exulte]

I don't support sweatshops, but at the same time, as a grown man with a real job where I often work overtime, I know it won't kill you either. So I'd say leave employees to sort it out for themselves, they don't need forum warriors girded in white tabards sallying forth to rescue them. If they don't like conditions they can complain to their boss or quit like anybody else with an ounce of self respect and backbone.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

With software development you have three levers to pull.

 

Time - you can fix a date

Cost - you can fix how much you want to spend on this

Scope - you can fix what it is you want to deliver

 

You can only have two of those three.

 

The crunch comes when people want to have all three of them, which, btw is an undeliverable dream/fantasy and doomed to fail. Proven to fail, time and time again.

 

It's the unfortunate concept that so many in development seem to still cling to. They're often supported by people on the peripheries that would like to believe the state of the industry is the same as it was in the 90s. As in, they believe it would be quite feasible to leave your employer and find new work, elsewhere.

 

The situation has changed and the industry most definitely has. I can't say I imagine ED runs an outfit akin to a sweatshop, though. Given their smaller, more niche audience and their greater connection to both the subject matter AND the community? Delays are way easier to square away in meetings, I'd suspect.

 

So, ED, do be safe and do be healthy.

[msalama]

or quit like anybody else

 

As easy for you to say as it is for me, since we're both first world citizens. And no, not even a whiff of SJW here; just wanted to point out that it's all very relative.