Fly solo without AI co-gunner/pilot

[Lurker]

I have to say something, make of it what you will. I'm sick of the elitism in this community. Not saying that everyone is guilty of it, or even that most are guilty of it. In fact I'd say that most people who fly in DCS World and post on these forums are reasonable and likeable and helpful people. But there is an undercurrent of overarching elitism that permeates pretty much any and every subject within DCS World. None of these people are pilots, or very few of them are, but there is an expectation that if you're not doing it the way "they" want you to do it, then for some reason you "suck" at the game, and need to be booed at or made fun of or belittled. Before I stray too far of the subject, this is connected to AI, and since the AH64D will probably be the most popular module that ED have ever released, and the AH64D in a way. For some reason if you should even dare rely on the AI, you're not doing it right. If you use the autostart, you're not doing it right. etc.  etc. etc. 

I'm sorry but I just want to have fun in a video game. Yes, reality check, this is a video game. If an AI can provide me with the means of doing that, whether online or in single-player then I would want that AI to be as fleshed out as possible so I don't have to rely on anyone else or on "unrealistic" yes, reality check unrealistic workarounds! A real AH64 pilot can't switch seats mid-flight, and doesn't have workarounds to make that happen etc. 

Sorry if this offends anyone, it's not meant to, everyone should enjoy their Apache in however way they want is basically the point. I think that Eagle Dynamics are smart enough to know that and that the AI will be robust enough for that to be possible. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Lurker

[bart]

@Lurker Agree 100% on all your points.

[Oceandar]

Why it should be a male. I want my AI pilot be a female named like Jane or Jenny lol

[silverdevil]

to the point made about F-14 the AI is called Jester. this is obviously not the person's name. but it is gender neutral. so why all of a sudden is the AI a given name? when i was in the army we generally called each other by their last name or nickname. we did not shout our Jane or Amy or Jack or Bob.

[cow_art]

@Lurker well said!

To be honest the AI copilot is the main reason why I am hyped for the Apache. Sure it's a cool machine (I grew up playing Gunship 2000 on the Amiga), but I would not have bothered with the DCS Apache if they didn't promise a functional AI copilot. I am mostly playing SP, and as you said above: this is a game and I play this for enjoyment and relaxation. The Apache AI will hopefully allow me to focus on the parts of helicopter gameplay I enjoy: flying whirlybirds and sneaking around in the weeds. Not having to wrestle a TPG /  FLIR in order to identify targets is one of the biggest advantages this will have over the Black Shark for me.

Will the AI be perfect and competitive in multiplayer? Probably not. But I don't care as long as I have fun with it in SP missions

[Remco]

9 hours ago, Lurker said:

I have to say something, make of it what you will. I'm sick of the elitism in this community. Not saying that everyone is guilty of it, or even that most are guilty of it. In fact I'd say that most people who fly in DCS World and post on these forums are reasonable and likeable and helpful people. But there is an undercurrent of overarching elitism that permeates pretty much any and every subject within DCS World. None of these people are pilots, or very few of them are, but there is an expectation that if you're not doing it the way "they" want you to do it, then for some reason you "suck" at the game, and need to be booed at or made fun of or belittled. Before I stray too far of the subject, this is connected to AI, and since the AH64D will probably be the most popular module that ED have ever released, and the AH64D in a way. For some reason if you should even dare rely on the AI, you're not doing it right. If you use the autostart, you're not doing it right. etc.  etc. etc. 

I'm sorry but I just want to have fun in a video game. Yes, reality check, this is a video game. If an AI can provide me with the means of doing that, whether online or in single-player then I would want that AI to be as fleshed out as possible so I don't have to rely on anyone else or on "unrealistic" yes, reality check unrealistic workarounds! A real AH64 pilot can't switch seats mid-flight, and doesn't have workarounds to make that happen etc. 

Sorry if this offends anyone, it's not meant to, everyone should enjoy their Apache in however way they want is basically the point. I think that Eagle Dynamics are smart enough to know that and that the AI will be robust enough for that to be possible. 

 

While I agree there's a ton of toxic elitism in the sim community, I've mostly found it comes from the sim pilots and not the real pilots (we tend to see sims a lot more like a game and thus tend to take it a tad less serious than the hardcore simmers and just have fun).

That said, a number of the people in this thread I know for a fact are also actual apache pilots, and they're simply informing people, especially the hardcore simmers that want the most realistic experience possible, that it's just not possible to get that experience with an AI. It will never happen, because the real aircraft that's being simulated is a two man crew operated machine. Nobody is telling anybody they should play with two people. What we Are saying is if you want to fly solo and expect to get the same experience as flying multicrew, you WILL be disappointed.

That said, if you want to fly solo with AI and accept that there will be limitations and unrealistic workaround, you do you, I genuinely don't think I've seen anyone argue against that. If there has been someone that genuinely told you the only right way to play the game is multicrew than granted, sod those people, but don't mistake genuine advice and reality checks of limited AI capability with being told how to play.

I'm sure ED is going to do a great job with the AI and flying solo is going to be an absolute blast!

[Raptor9]

5 minutes ago, Remco said:

If there has been someone that genuinely told you the only right way to play the game is multicrew than granted, sod those people

@Remco, you are only allowed to play with another person....you and you alone.  If you are caught using AI, you shall be smited. 

[Remco]

13 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

@Remco, you are only allowed to play with another person....you and you alone.  If you are caught using AI, you shall be smited. 

Congratulations, you just volunteered yourself to be my dedicated backseater 

[kgillers3]

Max tq is rotor droop

[silverdevil]

so if we decide on player being backseat, does that mean since AI is pilot, will it be able to defy physics like the adversary AIs do in other AC? ;-)

[Sabre_Ewan]

Just now, silverdevil said:

so if we decide on player being backseat, does that mean since AI is pilot, will it be able to defy physics like the adversary AIs do in other AC? ;-)

rear seat is pilot, that means AI is CPG.

[Raptor9]

24 minutes ago, Remco said:

Congratulations, you just volunteered yourself to be my dedicated backseater 

Ha, get the back son, you can be my battle chauffer...that TADS is mine. 

[sirrah]

2 hours ago, Remco said:

While I agree there's a ton of toxic elitism in the sim community, I've mostly found it comes from the sim pilots and not the real pilots (we tend to see sims a lot more like a game and thus tend to take it a tad less serious than the hardcore simmers and just have fun).

That said, a number of the people in this thread I know for a fact are also actual apache pilots, and they're simply informing people, especially the hardcore simmers that want the most realistic experience possible, that it's just not possible to get that experience with an AI. It will never happen, because the real aircraft that's being simulated is a two man crew operated machine. Nobody is telling anybody they should play with two people. What we Are saying is if you want to fly solo and expect to get the same experience as flying multicrew, you WILL be disappointed.

That said, if you want to fly solo with AI and accept that there will be limitations and unrealistic workaround, you do you, I genuinely don't think I've seen anyone argue against that. If there has been someone that genuinely told you the only right way to play the game is multicrew than granted, sod those people, but don't mistake genuine advice and reality checks of limited AI capability with being told how to play.

I'm sure ED is going to do a great job with the AI and flying solo is going to be an absolute blast!

You're right Remco, nobody is telling anybody they should play with two people (at least not that I've seen). And also, I don't think anyone will argue that multicrew will be more realistic than AI.

But what some of us did see, and what I suppose is the reason some might get a bit agitated, is people suggesting that ED should focus on multicrew instead of AI. That's probably where the shoe pinches and why some may (over)react

 

 

 

Edit:

Not that this entire discussion matters much, as I assume (and kinda hope) ED will do things as they think is best anyway 

Edited October 14, 2021 by sirrah

[Remco]

3 minutes ago, sirrah said:

You're right Remco, nobody is telling anybody they should play with two people (at least not that I've seen). And also, I don't think anyone will argue that multicrew will be more realistic than AI.

But what some of us did see, and what I suppose is the reason some might get a bit agitated, is people suggesting that ED should focus on multicrew instead of AI. That's probably where the shoe pinches and why some may (over)react

 

Fair enough yeah, I can see that being an issue. Obviously the largest market for this game is single player, and people who believe ED should cater just to the multiplayer aspect need to understand they are the minority, or atleast a portion of the playerbase, albeit often the loudest.

[silverdevil]

6 hours ago, Sabre_Ewan said:

rear seat is pilot, that means AI is CPG.

oh i thought it was other way around. my bad. the idea i was trying to purvey is, if the AI is pilot, will it be able to defy physics?

[Lurker]

13 hours ago, Remco said:

 I've mostly found it comes from the sim pilots and not the real pilots (we tend to see sims a lot more like a game and thus tend to take it a tad less serious than the hardcore simmers and just have fun).

Yes this has been my experience with you guys as well, my post above is definitely not targeted at @Raptor9, @kgillers3 and others who have been nothing but helpful and understanding. 

[odrin]

On 10/14/2021 at 5:48 AM, silverdevil said:

to the point made about F-14 the AI is called Jester. this is obviously not the person's name. but it is gender neutral. so why all of a sudden is the AI a given name? when i was in the army we generally called each other by their last name or nickname. we did not shout our Jane or Amy or Jack or Bob.

agreed about the name, from what i understand it's some kind of obscure tech-geek easter egg or reference, but i'd rather it be consistent. it should be a nickname

disagree about gender neutral. it would be such a waste of time to have both female and male voice lines. females are a tiny percentage of pilots in general, just keep it male.

[Sinclair_76]

5 hours ago, odrin said:

...from what i understand it's some kind of obscure tech-geek easter egg or reference...

Oh the blasphemy!

Unless you consider Top Gun an obscure tech geek movie. Then you would be absolutely correct.

But be warned you will make me feel like a geriatric nerd if you say yes. 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Sinclair_76

[Sabre_Ewan]

1 hour ago, Sinclair_76 said:

Oh the blasphemy!

Unless you consider Top Gun an obscure tech geek movie. Then you would be absolutely correct.

 

I thought he was referring to George, not Jester. I could be wrong though.

 

(or whatever the AH-64 one is supposed to be called. now I've said George I can't even remember if that's right)

Edited October 17, 2021 by Sabre_Ewan

[Sinclair_76]

16 minutes ago, Sabre_Ewan said:

I thought he was referring to George, not Jester. I could be wrong though.

 

(or whatever the AH-64 one is supposed to be called. now I've said George I can't even remember if that's right)

 

Oh....that would explain everything. Well it's only just the first foot in mouth moment today.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Sinclair_76

[Dunkdd]

On 10/12/2021 at 3:07 PM, Preendog said:

I get that a large part of the DCS market likes to roleplay as pilots and whatever, but it's no reason to make the product inaccessible to single players or those with simple hardware.

This,

As someone who has only discovered this world out of a nostalgia and desire to go back to things that made me myself in my prime, I have been amazed at how extremely dedicated some people in these forums are to learning the world of a 64 pilot. I would absolutely not be surprised if a lot of these users had the oral knowledge to pass an advanced course oral portion of a check ride. Maybe not some of the tactical stuff, laser detractors and cherry ice calls or whatever, but systems probably. To realize that these are hobbiests, who are doing this for fun, is really mind blowing and impressive. I can't decide whether to applaud the efforts involved or scold them for not using that dedication to something more philanthropic or something, but to each their own. I guess knowing how many guys are sitting in flight companies, eagerly anticipating their ETS date, or hoping clouds roll in to cancel their afternoon flight hour because they didn't study the ECS system like they were supposed to, it just makes you realize that the grass is always greener. I can't explain pointedly enough how much the Army rips the enjoyment and fulfillment out of what was expected to be a dream career. Thats no reason to not enjoy a hobby. If it makes you happy, and obviously there was something I must have loved, because I am here worrying about clarifying things for people who I don't know, for no other reason besides the fact that I am A type (as all pilots) and I hate hate hate incorrect information given off as fact by anyone, especially those pretending to know what they are talking about. Its not really stolen valor to pretend to have been a pilot, but it is certainly obnoxious and irritating. There is no such thing as a Sniper/Medic who works as an SF team leader and is also a dog handler specializing in EOD, just as there is also no such thing as an AH64E Instructor pilot who is also a Harrier pilot and Warthog Pilot. If someone is telling you they fly multiple airframes in different branches they are not being honest. Thats a random side note not directed at anyone in particular. Although admittedly I have not seen every aviators ORB and there are always shadowy figures who operate out of everyone's sphere of awareness. Though I find most of those individuals spend about as much time on DCS forums as they do playing dominos at an outdoor market in Cuba. Cheers. 

[Preendog]

I appreciate the hardcore and real life operators helping making the sim so good, because the imitation to real life is what creates the complexity and challenge to be a rewarding (if initially challenging) game.

I am just saying if the game helicopter can fly and shoot, it would be nice if the player could, you know, fly and shoot online.  If seat switching online is impractical for programming reasons, there's no technical restriction with just making the front seat position the default "host' for online, instead of backseat pilot.  The front seater can just do more functions.

But on original topic, the Wags Introduction video in Oct 23 says that you can fly pilot and gunner online "with friends".  Not conclusive, but suggests that seat hopping will not be possible, and the backseat will be the only occupiable slot for a single player.  So online single player combat without manipulating an AI gunner will not be possible.  Possibly even AI gunner will not be available online, and you would be restricted to sightseeing.  So I guess, wait and see.

 

edit:  Link to description of player duties.  I appreciate the clarification of this part cuz it means everything to casual airquakers who have an hour to kill after work.  

https://youtu.be/LEHEgvqS1GA?t=55

 

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Preendog

[NWGJulian]

Am 23.10.2021 um 18:56 schrieb Preendog:

I appreciate the hardcore and real life operators helping making the sim so good, because the imitation to real life is what creates the complexity and challenge to be a rewarding (if initially challenging) game.

I am just saying if the game helicopter can fly and shoot, it would be nice if the player could, you know, fly and shoot online.  If seat switching online is impractical for programming reasons, there's no technical restriction with just making the front seat position the default "host' for online, instead of backseat pilot.  The front seater can just do more functions.

But on original topic, the Wags Introduction video in Oct 23 says that you can fly pilot and gunner online "with friends".  Not conclusive, but suggests that seat hopping will not be possible, and the backseat will be the only occupiable slot for a single player.  So online single player combat without manipulating an AI gunner will not be possible.  Possibly even AI gunner will not be available online, and you would be restricted to sightseeing.  So I guess, wait and see.

 

edit:  Link to description of player duties.  I appreciate the clarification of this part cuz it means everything to casual airquakers who have an hour to kill after work.  

https://youtu.be/LEHEgvqS1GA?t=55

 

 

 

i am pretty sure online AI gunner will be possible; there is no reason it would not. it is possible in the f14, in the huey and in the hind.

the only problem with the AI gunner will be, that he never ever will be as clever and as accurate as a real human cpg. i am pretty sure that it will be enjoyable with george AI in multiplayer, just like singleplayer, but of course with some downsides. but imho, this is nothing to worry about; a match of counter strike, tetris or mario kart will ALWAYS be better with humans instead of AI … thats what i wanted to say in my initial post -> if you want to get the 100% perfect apache experience, you need a human cpg

i am also pretty sure that you will be able to switch seats, go to the cpg slot and let „george“ fly the apache; but just in single player, not in multiplayer

i do 100% believe in ED that they will make flying with the AI as enjoyable as with a human buddy

Edited October 26, 2021 by NWGJulian

[minar]

Im mainly a sinlge player gal and have flown sims since the mid 90's. I am happy that the copilot will have Ai logic. I wont enter  SP versus MP debate as that been going on for over a decade but I do prefer offline and dynamic campaigns, this is one reason I bought into the Hind. Im am more anxious to get my hands on the OH-58D though.

[Taz1004]

Do we have any idea what the UI will be for interacting with AI pilot?  Not to be critical of F14 but the wheel is what kept me from buying Tomcat.  Will Apache AI menu be just generic comm menu?