Force Trim

[dburne]

6 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Thank you for the (at least for me) very helpful hints on how the various modes in the Special menu affect how trims are set up. It helped to resolved one nagging Issue I had (after adding a small dead zone, the joystick returned control to me after trimming).

It seems to me, many here (me included) are baffled by one option that seemingly is missing, or that I can't get to work. In simple terms (for me), trimming simply sets constant values for dx and dy offset that are added to your x and y cyclic inputs. In the Huey, Hind, Gazelle, Shark and Hip, I can press a 'trim reset' button that simply resets that dx/dy to 0/0 (usually buffered, within 0.5 seconds). The controls return to 'true stick' values, no offset, so to speak. I can't find that on my Apache, or can't get it  to work that way. I assumed that the 'Force Trim / Hold Mode D- Down' (which the Manual seems to indicate a "Reset") does not, in fact do what the reset button does on the Huey et al. I guess that is what is throwing off so many of us, and that is what many (me included) would like to have. Then again, it may be just me, and I'm (again) overlooking the obvious. 

So I guess, the question is: how would I, without looking at my control indicator effectively zero the offset, or which setting in special would give me that functionality when used with "Mode D - down'? That would help me a lot - thank you for any hints.

 

 

ED has stated they are looking at adding a trim reset option.

 

[cfrag]

2 minutes ago, bradmick said:

this would be a terrible idea in a real helicopter.

Indeed and fully agreed. Except we are not flying a real helicopter, and we are using spring-loaded joysticks. Sometimes a couple of 'playability cheats' go a long way. For example, I can press 'pause' when I need to take a leak in DCS. Also I would never touch the controls of my Cherokee after imbibing. Terrible idea in real life. Great in a game.

 

[scampaboy]

17 minutes ago, bradmick said:

The D - Disengage, disengages the Attitude and Altitude hold modes after they've been turned on. That's all it does. It doesn't reset or release the force trim. In fact, force trim doesn't  auto center at all on it's own, you have to move the flight controls (because it's a magnetic brake that holds the flight control in position). There is no 'trim reset' in any helicopter that i've flown that magically centers the flight controls, this would be a terrible idea in a real helicopter. The real Huey does't have it, the Lakota doesn't have it, the Apache doesn't have it and neither did the TH-67. The trim reset won't help, understanding the theory behind how the trim in the sim works and what it's trying to replicate in the age of non forcefeedback sticks is what'll help.

They also don’t have a system which locks you out of controlling the aircraft till you centre your sticks but you know …..

[S. Low]

Bit of a tangent but my buddy said to try flying with no trim and after messing around doing noe stuff it’s probably better to simply fly using zero trim right now until the rest of the hold modes get implemented. 

[Lurker]

Paging Dr. @Raptor9 , paging Dr. @Raptor9 we have an emergency! Stat!

[Hiob]

I think, where a lot of the confusion stems from is, that people fail to distinguish between three different topics. (EDIT: 3,5 Topics!)

1. Force Trim

2. Stabilization "AP"-modes like ATT-Hold, HDG-Hold and Auto-Hover

3. The translation and different methods of translating what we can do with our desk-cockpits to the simulated aircraft (which is everything revolving around the different settings in the special options tab).

3(b) - relating only to the third topic - A trim reset function (with ED already announced will be implemented!)

The first (4-way trim head "up") simply holds the cyclic (I am only referring to the cyclic for the sake of simplicity) in the position it is in when the trim button is pressed and released. The Aircraft will continue as if you where holding this cyclic position manually. In the real Aircrafts, e.g. the Huey it will adjust the hydraulics so, that the stick is hold in the trimmed position without any recoil/retention forces acting on the pilots hand.

The second is only relevant for Aircraft with a flight computer/sas augmentation system. It applies for sure to the Apache, though not all modes have been implemented yet. It is a completely different topic though.

The third is the most difficult one to discuss, because people have different setups, different needs and different perception. But that is all about the (not necessarily realistic) "helpers" that ED implemented to make it possible to control a Helicopter without having real Helicopter control inputs at hand. How they work exactly is described in detail further up.

 

If we really want to help those who struggle and want to come to any reasonable conclusion, we first need to make sure, what we are talking about here.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Hiob

[crispy12]

Trim reset is vital when you need to move the cyclic to a predetermined and specific position i.e. autorotation

An IRL pilot does not need this obviously but it is needed due to the way our joysticks and center trim works

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by crispy12

[Raptor9]

@Lurker By this point, there is already so much misunderstanding and inaccurate/false information in this thread, I foresee this thread continuing on with no end or resolution in sight.  There is practically no way for someone without knowledge on this topic to wade through the previous 14 pages of back and forth and know what to believe.  Not dogging anyone, just stating that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread since any accurate posts will be lost in the sea of inaccurate posts, with no way to tell who is right or not.

[agamemnon_b5]

8 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

@Lurker By this point, there is already so much misunderstanding and inaccurate/false information in this thread, I foresee this thread continuing on with no end or resolution in sight.  There is practically no way for someone without knowledge on this topic to wade through the previous 14 pages of back and forth and know what to believe.  Not dogging anyone, just stating that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread since any accurate posts will be lost in the sea of inaccurate posts, with no way to tell who is right or not.

It might help if ED did a better job of explaining things rather than leave it to random people on YouTube channels and the forums.

Look at the heading hold (supposedly a thing though I never got it to work).  The thread was linked earlier in this thread.  People say its there and works.  At no point in any of the videos released by ED does it go into this and how to achieve.  It also seems that no content maker even knows about.

[S. Low]

10 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

@Lurker By this point, there is already so much misunderstanding and inaccurate/false information in this thread, I foresee this thread continuing on with no end or resolution in sight.  There is practically no way for someone without knowledge on this topic to wade through the previous 14 pages of back and forth and know what to believe.  Not dogging anyone, just stating that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread since any accurate posts will be lost in the sea of inaccurate posts, with no way to tell who is right or not.

Brad just made a separate post with his trim instructions. Pretty much resolves it

[Raptor9]

Just now, agamemnon_b5 said:

It might help if ED did a better job of explaining things rather than leave it to random people on YouTube channels and the forums.

Not speaking for the dev team, but a lot of it is WIP, including the manual.  Not to beat a dead horse, but early access is early access, even the documentation. 361 pages still only scratches the surface of what is needed to fully explain the embedded logics and behavior, but resources and time is limited.  Any previous module had features change and evolve as things were improved. If one thing is said in the manual, but isn't implemented fully or accurately in the module at any given point, then people don't know what to believe there either.  I'm not saying that it won't get there, I'm just saying that having to create graphics, charts and long descriptions to explain how something is functioning now, but is evolving as they are fleshed out, is not an efficient use of time or resources.

Further, even when they are explained thoroughly, a lot of people still bring their own assumptions into the forums to incorrectly explain how things work or should work, with zero reference to anything that is put out there in the manual or tutorials accurately and thoroughly anyway. Again, not dogging anyone, I was just stating for myself after someone pinged me that my efforts are going to be focused elsewhere for the sake of efficiency.

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, Raptor9 said:

@Lurker By this point, there is already so much misunderstanding and inaccurate/false information in this thread, I foresee this thread continuing on with no end or resolution in sight.  There is practically no way for someone without knowledge on this topic to wade through the previous 14 pages of back and forth and know what to believe.  Not dogging anyone, just stating that there is no point in me continuing to post in this thread since any accurate posts will be lost in the sea of inaccurate posts, with no way to tell who is right or not.

You are of course, correct. I guess with the popularity of the module, in a way it could even be expected. 

 

 

[JTF-191 Scooter]

Thanks to Overkill I can fly. May not be the "real life way" but I am having fun and this is a hobby.

[dburne]

Well I think I have take off and flight basics nailed down pretty good with using the force trim as it should be - finally. Today I am devoting to getting to the same point with landing from a hover. I can do a rolling landing all day no problem, it's landing from a hover is costing me too much damage to my chopper. Maybe someday in the not too distant future I can progress on with learning combat with my buddy George.

[agamemnon_b5]

2 minutes ago, dburne said:

Well I think I have take off and flight basics nailed down pretty good with using the force trim as it should be - finally. Today I am devoting to getting to the same point with landing from a hover. I can do a rolling landing all day no problem, it's landing from a hover is costing me too much damage to my chopper. Maybe someday in the not too distant future I can progress on with learning combat with my buddy George.

Be gradual with it at first.  If you have to be going 10 knots, then go at 10 knots and land her gently.  Landing from 0ish knots will come.

[Jackjack171]

I haven't fired a single shot since the release because I wanted to get a feel for flying her around...landings and such! I'm starting to believe most of the problems with Force trim come from the user side. Trimming is not that difficult to grasp. Also, Overkills video helped as well!

[dburne]

11 minutes ago, Jackjack171 said:

I haven't fired a single shot since the release because I wanted to get a feel for flying her around...landings and such! I'm starting to believe most of the problems with Force trim come from the user side. Trimming is not that difficult to grasp. Also, Overkills video helped as well!

Yeah now I don't think it is all that difficult, but in the beginning it certainly was for me and I imagine for a lot of others.

[Jackjack171]

13 minutes ago, dburne said:

Yeah now I don't think it is all that difficult, but in the beginning it certainly was for me and I imagine for a lot of others.

Yeah, the first time I put her into a hover, she was all over the place. It just takes time, patience and understanding. Just like my trusty Tomcat!

[Floyd1212]

For now I am satisfied that ED has said they are bringing the trim reset "cheat" to the module.  No need to continue to argue with others about how it can be useful.

I think with some external software, like Joystick Gremlin, and the new trim reset function available, there will be options to set it all up to do exactly what is intuitive for me to use.  Thanks ED.

[jojo]

I don't really understand the war between Force Feedback mode/ centre spring mode.
I think it was more or less the same for every single helicopter since Ka-50. Use what you prefer.

I'm in centre spring mode.

At first it was a little bit frustrating, because I didn't handled it as well as Mi-24. But now just under 06 hours of flight time (which is nothing, but maybe can give and idea, your millage may vary) I start to feel more comfortable flying around, tactical flight, coming to a hover and landing. Yep, a lot of foot work so far, it will be probably easier when flight assistance sub-modes will be available.

Just practice guys, take your time and build your muscle memory. You will master it 

[dburne]

1 minute ago, jojo said:

I don't really understand the war between Force Feedback mode/ centre spring mode.
I think it was more or less the same for every single helicopter since Ka-50. Use what you prefer.

I'm in centre spring mode.

At first it was a little bit frustrating, because I didn't handled it as well as Mi-24. But now just under 06 hours of flight time (which is nothing, but maybe can give and idea, your millage may vary) I start to feel more comfortable flying around, tactical flight, coming to a hover and landing. Yep, a lot of foot work so far, it will be probably easier when flight assistance sub-modes will be available.

Just practice guys, take your time and build your muscle memory. You will master it 

 

Very true, after days of working on it just made my first really good landing from a hover. I am getting there slow but sure. Changed my button assignment for the force trims from my stick to my throttle, think I am doing better with it set to my throttle. 

[SkateZilla]

5 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

Thanks, thats very useful, I have a quick question - when you are talking about the need to re centre the stick before you can use it again after changing the settings in special, ( around minute 13 - 14) I dont see the white diamond moving back to centre when you are presumably doing this....why is that ? 

This is tricky if the force trim button is on your cyclic, as you cant let go and still operate teh button. maybe best in this situation to have the force trim button bound to a hat on the collective? 

thats not my video,

 

but if center spring setting is set, ypu press the force trim button and release stick back to center, but sim will keep it at the trimmed center, and diamond will stay at the trimmed center in controls indicator

instant ffb trim, when you hit the button, it moves center to you stick position and you stick position is offset.

 

[SkateZilla]

there is no "trim reset" in any of the helo modules,

AH64s trim is not the same as the Huey, or the Ka50 or the Mi family helos, nor is it the same as jets, i see a lot of users flying the trim like its a jet, or like its the huey.

a trim reset button, will only make it harder to control as you take your 60% right rudder and 40% stick forward you had to counter torque and instantly drop it to zero, the torque will spin you around and tip you over quicker than you can say oops, and then you'll continue to blame ED and the Flight model, when its really because your manipulating the trim system to do something it wasnt supposed to do.

if you cant trim and fly the aircraft now, a trim reset cheat button is not going to fix that problem.

 

that being said, once all the remaining hold and FCS channels are added, it will be alot more stable on its own.

Edited March 23, 2022 by SkateZilla

[rayrayblues]

8 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

there is no trim reset in any of the helo modules,

AH64s trim is not the same as the Huey, or the Ka50 or the Mi family helos, nor is it the same as jets, i see a lot of users flying the trim like its a jet, or like its the huey.

a trim reset button, will only make it harder to control as you take your 60% right rudder you had to counter torque and instantly drop it to zero, the torque will spin you around and tip you over quicker than you can say oops, and then you'll continue to blame ED and the Flight model, whe. its really because your manipulating the trim system to do something it wasnt supposed to do.

if you cant trim and fly the airxraft now, a trim reset cheat button is not going to fix that problem.

 

that being said, once all the remaining hold and FCS channels are added, it will be alot more stable on its own.

So far the most informative and intelligent post in this thread so far. (Including my own)

BigNewy appeased the "pro reset button" folks on page 12.  Can we all just calm down and move on?

 

[petsild]

Hi,

I'm absolutely thrilled with the Apache module, but the trim used for the spring joystick doesn't work properly.

Please ED do the same trimmer as my Huey there is no need to think anything complicated, thank you very much.