Force Trim

[cfrag]

2 hours ago, davidrbarnette said:

As a real pilot, I’ve never flown an aircraft that has a “trim reset”

As a real pilot, I've never flown an aircraft with a spring-loaded joystick either. To transition real-life to a game, some good design decisions and compromises must be made. Sims are seldom one size fits all, and I like the fact that ED is prepared to listen and cater to multiple groups of their clients. There's no downside to implementing this trim reset, especially since the center trim mode that already exists is also pure fantasy.  

[toutenglisse]

The problem for me, with trim reset (and non FFB stick), is the violence of it. In Ka50 if I hit the trim reset from a strongly trimmed position, I can break blades or have some violent aircraft behavior. It's way better imo me to move stick and trim, even 2 times in a row if needed to reach a position.

With a FFB stick if you hold firmly controls before trim resetting it can be OK, but even using FFB I prefer trimming.

That said I have nothing against the option coming for the Apache of course.

[MAXsenna]

I just don't understand why people would oppose something like a reset button, if other users would find it useful.

If you don't like it just don't use it. Sigh... 

Myself, I use an old MS FFB2 and have taken the spring out of my TM T.Flight pedals, while I wait for my Slaw RH Rotor pedals to be shipped.  

[Hiob]

7 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

I just don't understand why people would oppose something like a reset button, if other users would find it useful.

 

"because it's not a game, it's a simulation!!!!!!111111"

Edit: Real reason? It's this "my way or the highway" line of thinking that is so common today.....

Edited March 24, 2022 by Hiob

[Floyd1212]

3 minutes ago, Hiob said:

"because it's not a game, it's a simulation!!!!!!111111"

Yet 99% of us are using gaming joysticks with springs in them, not $5K simulation controllers with actual magnetic brake force trim systems handling all of this for us.

[dburne]

OK so just did a flight after removing the spring from my Crosswind Pedals with Damper Mod and choosing pedals without springs for my rudder settings in DCS for the Apache. Probably the best landing from hover I have done to date. Not perfect but certainly the best for me. I think I am going to like this method very much with the Apache.

[Hammer1-1]

2 hours ago, cfrag said:

As a real pilot, I've never flown an aircraft with a spring-loaded joystick either. To transition real-life to a game, some good design decisions and compromises must be made. Sims are seldom one size fits all, and I like the fact that ED is prepared to listen and cater to multiple groups of their clients. There's no downside to implementing this trim reset, especially since the center trim mode that already exists is also pure fantasy.  

As a sim pilot and an aircraft mechanic, as well as having seated in many different aircraft, I recall there being a way to indicate where the trim is set, whether or not its markings on the trim wheel, a gauge on the dashboard, or other visual indicator. Honestly thats half of the battle right now in the Apache as it seems like its just guesswork. Just to be clear, by no means am I suggesting you're wrong.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[Raptor9]

There are white arrows at the base of each cyclic that show this, albeit one is still missing.

[Hammer1-1]

6 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

There are white arrows at the base of each cyclic that show this, albeit one is still missing.

now that youve mentioned it....thanks!

yeah it does look like the pitch indicator is missing.

[dburne]

Well finally after removing the spring on my Crosswinds with Damper Mod and changing to non springs for my pedals for Apache I am making some decent landings from hover I can walk away from. Now I can move along in my training to more stuff.

Thanks to all for the great help in this thread!

Edited March 24, 2022 by dburne

[Hammer1-1]

1 minute ago, dburne said:

Well finally after removing the spring on my Crosswinds with Damper Mod and changing to non springs for my pedals for Apache I am making some decent landings from hover I can walk away from. Now I can move along in my training to more stuff.

Im still trying to figure out how to put some slack in my slaw rudder pedals...not as cut and dry as it was on crosswinds. Gotta admit, I miss my crosswinds...

[rayrayblues]

There are keyboard bindings available to help you fine tune your trim.

What I do is fly until my airspeed, vertical speed and slip ball are where I want them, set trim, and then

use these to smooth things out.  I then set the attitude hold and I can fly hands off for a long time once it's dialed in. I don't need the CI either.

These are the default bindings. You can set them to other buttons or a hat switch if you like. A real "Quality of Life" feature.

BTW I am using "Center Trim" because I just can't get a handle on "Instant Trim" It doesn't work for me. Believe me I've tried.

[dburne]

I keep forgetting we have attitude hold. Have not even tried it yet.

[agamemnon_b5]

3 minutes ago, dburne said:

I keep forgetting we have attitude hold. Have not even tried it yet.

If you figure out if it actually work and what parameters need to be met in order for it to work, please drop a post, lol.

[Lurker]

Redkite's video is just adding more confusion in to the mix. Not once did he demonstrate the proper technique to fly the Apache, which is HOLD the trim button, then move your flight controls, then RELEASE Trim. This is regardless of whether you have a 50$ grandma's joystick, or 2000$ worth of flight equipment stripped straight out of a real Apache. 

If you are moving your flight controls and then pressing and releasing trim, you will get into trouble for all the reasons that Redkite demonstrated in the video above. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Lurker

[agamemnon_b5]

35 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Redkite's video is just adding more confusion in to the mix. Not once did he demonstrate the proper technique to fly the Apache, which is HOLD the trim button, then move your flight controls, then RELEASE Trim. This is regardless of whether you have a 50$ grandma's joystick, or 2000$ worth of flight equipment stripped straight out of a real Apache. 

If you are moving your flight controls and then pressing and releasing trim, you will get into trouble for all the reasons that Redkite demonstrated in the video above. 

 

Joystick does matter, as well as other things.  Pressing and holding trim tends to increase the sensitivity  and those with unsteady hands may find some difficulty.  I personally better control DCS birds by moving controls into position then trimming (except for KA-50 without flight director, of course).

 

EDIT: Cockpit inflight of a Greek Apache.  Notice how even in some turns he isn't holding the trim.

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by agamemnon_b5

[exil]

27 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

Joystick does matter, as well as other things.  Pressing and holding trim tends to increase the sensitivity  and those with unsteady hands may find some difficulty.  I personally better control DCS birds by moving controls into position then trimming (except for KA-50 without flight director, of course).

 

EDIT: Cockpit inflight of a Greek Apache.  Notice how even in some turns he isn't holding the trim.

 

 

Its not necessary to trim out every movement. Once trimmed out straight and level you can just push the stick without trimming, turn, roll out and you'll have the same attitude again (not taking wind into account of course). Only if you intend to make major changes in attitude (E.G. speedchanges) you may want to trim again. 

[daemon1808]

Same for me. Holding the trim is way worse, and I end in an uncontrolable spin, bouncing and falling from the sky.

I prefer adjust stick/rudder, trim, adjust, trim, adjust....

And for all of you that continue anoying others with the "IRL you don´t have trim reset, IRL this, IRL that....nanananana": Please, next time you crash a plane in DCS, break your computer, go to your home roof and jump... "because IRL, when you crash a plane it is destroyed and pilot is killed most of the times"

[agamemnon_b5]

1 hour ago, exil said:

Only if you intend to make major changes in attitude (E.G. speedchanges) you may want to trim again. 

That's not the same as holding down the trim button for every movement.  I'm more or less contesting that holding the trim button is the "proper" way to do things

Casmo just released a video about the trimmer.  Same thing; he does not hold down the trim button.  He makes adjustments then hits trim.

[agamemnon_b5]

8 hours ago, rcjonessnp175 said:

Anyways flys great for me, folks should pay attention to the SME’s posts and truly understand the words they say….

At the moment, the SMEs are saying many different things.  SMEs on Reddit are saying SCAS modeling is off, SMEs on these forums say heading hold is a thing but Casmo on his channel said it isn't implemented yet.

It would be helpful if there was some consensus amongst the SMEs.

[Hammer1-1]

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Hammer1-1

[Raptor9]

10 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

At the moment, the SMEs are saying many different things.  SMEs on Reddit are saying SCAS modeling is off, SMEs on these forums say heading hold is a thing but Casmo on his channel said it isn't implemented yet.

It would be helpful if there was some consensus amongst the SMEs.

Heading hold is in, Wags mentioned that the SCAS system is still in development in one of his recent videos, and for what it is worth, any other AH-64 crewmembers not in the know of the state of the SCAS/module development would probably say it isn't modelled correctly as well. They may not be aware of the method by which DCS simulates force trim (that may be confusing them if they are new to DCS), and they also may not have seen the videos and statements explaining that the SCAS system isn't finished.

It is no secret that everything is still WIP, this isn't a hidden fact, it's been stated multiple times in multiple places.  As for Casmo, he has been very busy doing real life stuff in recent weeks so he may not be fully briefed on what is in the release build.

[exil]

36 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

That's not the same as holding down the trim button for every movement.  I'm more or less contesting that holding the trim button is the "proper" way to do things

Casmo just released a video about the trimmer.  Same thing; he does not hold down the trim button.  He makes adjustments then hits trim.

Just so we are talking about the same thing here. What I mean is the following:

Major changes: hold FTR, move the stick, then release FTR. 

Minor changes: just move the stick without pressing FTR. 

Nevertheless, there is no 'it must be done this way'. If one feels happy with simply short-pressing FTR when your in the right attitude, why not. I know a lot of guys using different methods in real life. I, personally like the 'hold, move, release' more IRL because I have the feeling it gives me more precision. Whereas in DCS I am more of the 'just press' guy because without FFB you won't feel any resistance when moving the stick around. So that wouldn't hamper my precision. I say whatever suits you best. 

I really don't get the arguing around here sometimes (not meaning you personally). 

Edited March 24, 2022 by exil

[Raptor9]

I would like to point out that the DCS Apache force trim behaves exactly the same way as the force trim in the DCS Ka-50.  So there is nothing new in this module's simulation that hasn't been around for over a decade of DCS.

What is different is the specific handling and flight computer logic of the two helicopters.  The Ka-50 is heavier and has an autopilot system that is designed to take on more complex tasks than the AH-64, which is of course important for a single-seat attack helicopter. The Ka-50 has no tail rotor obviously, and has more power available for lift and propulsion; an advantage of not needing a portion of engine power devoted to a tail rotor for directional control.

So while the Apache is lighter and has very good low-speed agility from it's command augmentation system (although the Ka-50 is exceptionally maneuverable as well, especially for its mass), if you turn on the Flight Director in the Ka-50, which inhibits autopilot task inputs while retaining the core rate damping functions, you will find the trimmer modes respond identically to their AH-64D counterparts. Especially if you observe the Control Indicator.

Ka-50 "Default" trimmer mode = AH-64D "INSTANT TRIM" force trim mode
Ka-50 "Central Position" trimmer mode = AH-64D "Central Position" force trim mode

Ka-50 "Rudder Trimmer" check box simply applies the cyclic trimmer mode to its rudder pedals whereas the AH-64D gives you the option to use a different mode altogether for your pedals. If you want the AH-64D rudder pedals to behave like the Ka-50's with the "Rudder Trimmer" option un-checked, select "Pedals without Springs or FFB".

Edited March 24, 2022 by Raptor9

[Jayhawk1971]

All I can say after 17 pages of more or less pointless debate, is that I feel pretty smug with my old G940 right now.  Force feedback and more than enough bindable buttons and axis are great for the Apache (and other modules that need to be actively trimmed, like the Tomcat).

It's about time some manufacturer gets its act together and comes out with a new generation of (affordable) FFB HOTAS.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Jayhawk1971