Update on improved ATC?

[MVS-Viper]

With the current advancements to AI - hopefully we can have a working ATC sometime in the near future.  

[Supernova-III]

ATC (руководитель полетов) really needs improvement. What is "отход по схеме на 300"? What should I do when ATC tells me that?

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Supernova-III said:

What is "отход по схеме на 300"? What should I do when ATC tells me that?

Just ignore it - follow the mission orders instead. "Climb 300..." is just a generic response after take off from any ATC controlled airfield in DCS and would mean FL300 = 30'000ft.

[Supernova-III]

Just now, draconus said:

Just ignore it

this is what I usually do

On the other side, my question was a bit rhetorical. I just wanted to say, that the ATC we have today is mostly useless

[draconus]

7 minutes ago, Supernova-III said:

ATC we have today is mostly useless

I don't share your opinion. It's quite fine as very basic ATC and navaid for SP but I'm all in for the improvements.

[sirrah]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

I don't share your opinion. It's quite fine as very basic ATC and navaid for SP but I'm all in for the improvements.

"Chevy1 unable to clear for takeoff"-instantly followed by-"Chevy1 cleared for takeoff"

No offence meant  and please don't take this personal, but how can one consider current ATC state to be "quite fine"?

It's a mess and imho at the moment, in terms of immersion, we're better of without it.

 

*Glass half full mode on again*

From here on, ATC can only improve

Edited November 29, 2024 by sirrah

[draconus]

2 minutes ago, sirrah said:

"Chevy1 unable to clear for takeoff"-instantly followed by-"Chevy1 cleared for takeoff"

No offence meant, but how can one consider current ATC state to be "quite fine"?

It's a mess and imho at the moment, in terms of immersion, we're better of without it.

Bugs happen and should be fixed - it's obviously not working how it was designed to sometimes. There is option in mission editor to turn off the built in ATC. You can also choose to not use it, not turn into the frequency, etc.

Example of use:

I want to land at some AB at night. I check ATC freq in the kneeboard. I call Inbound and get the necessary info to fly to the initial. I can call again for nav assistance closing in. After reaching initial I call request to land. All without F10 map or preplanned WPs, as basic as it is.

[Tom Kazansky]

10 minutes ago, sirrah said:

"Chevy1 unable to clear for takeoff"-instantly followed by-"Chevy1 cleared for takeoff"

Yeah, that's the major pain. By solving this single issue a lot of "attention" could be taken from the current state of the ATC until the overhaul is finished and released some day.

[Dav IRL]

Their should be an bunch of airport templates in the mission editor.

Traffic light
Traffic medium
Traffic heavy

Based on this there is audio and aircraft spawned for each scenario type with traffic management.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Volator]

On 11/13/2024 at 2:24 PM, BIGNEWY said:

We have higher priority tasks ahead of the ATC, which it self is a huge task. You will need to continue to be patient. 

thank you 

At least fix the long-standing multiplayer ATC bug so we can have night missions again on Caucasus.

Thank you.

Edited November 30, 2024 by Volator

[BIGNEWY]

8 hours ago, Volator said:

At least fix the long-standing multiplayer ATC bug so we can have night missions again on Caucasus.

Thank you.

Multiplayer ATC bug is being worked on, its complicated sadly 

[MVS-Viper]

On 11/29/2024 at 3:06 AM, draconus said:

I don't share your opinion. It's quite fine as very basic ATC and navaid for SP but I'm all in for the improvements.

Actually it is very broken.  I mean no disrespect to your comment, but look at the ATC in other sims such as Falcon 4.0, MSFS, or even a third party mod such as “Say Intentions” for MSFS.  They are way advanced by comparison.  

44 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Multiplayer ATC bug is being worked on, its complicated sadly 

Awesome news.  Thanks BN.

[virgo47]

ATC is quite terrible because you have to track which aerodromes are broken and which are still fine. There's an aerodrome where nav to initial says totally contradictory things:

And another one where you're sent the wrong way in an Su-25T mission:

Many experiments show that 0 wind acts like high wind, and wind from >0 to ~5 m/s acts differently. No logic at all. I'm not sure about other maps as I play the Caucasus predominantly - especially for various experiments - but it's so easy to find confusing and buggy ATC stuff that one has to keep their own database of aerodromes to avoid for some mission setups. Not to mention that confusing clearance denial we all ignore by now (but imagine being a newcomer player, the impression is really bad) or often a trivial sequence of comms with ATC that results in blank options for that airport (no option to takeoff nor land, nothing).

It's not OK by any stretch of the imagination. It just is and somewhat works for a very limited set of circumstances.

Edited November 30, 2024 by virgo47

[FalcoGer]

On 11/14/2024 at 3:59 PM, SharpeXB said:

I feel like any improvement to ATC would only really be appreciated in the context of a dynamic campaign so getting this before that seems premature. I can’t fathom MP gamers actually using authentic ATC procedures and the DLC campaigns already have this. It’s only something I imagine being used in the core SP game modes, again like a dynamic campaign if there was one. 

They don't use it because it's terrible. Everybody I ever flew with when a decent ATC was available in the sim would actually use it, and even follow instructions, because it gets everybody down faster and they line you up nicely and with plenty of time and spacing. It also takes navigation and spacing off your hands. Or you can just ask for the "let me land and shut up" landing where they basically just give you clearance a mile in front of the runway and don't bother you with anything else.

And you got it backwards. dynamic campaign requires a working ATC as a prerequisite.

And I don't anticipate dynamic campaign as much as a working ATC system, because dynamic campaign is a new feature. Working ATC is a bug fix, it's a broken mess, the workaround for which is to tune a different frequency (impossible in FC3 aircraft) or mute the radio altogether.

[FalcoGer]

On 11/29/2024 at 2:11 PM, draconus said:

I want to land at some AB at night. I check ATC freq in the kneeboard. I call Inbound and get the necessary info to fly to the initial. I can call again for nav assistance closing in. After reaching initial I call request to land. All without F10 map or preplanned WPs, as basic as it is.

Compare

1. You ask for inbound
2. you ask for ADF heading
3. you ask for landing
4. if you are lucky they respond and let you land, even if there is currently a column of tanks, a burning wreckage or some holes on/in the runway

with

1. You tune approach
2. You ask approach for a radar vector approach
3. They give you a runway, qfe and then progressive vectors, altitudes and speeds - which results in you getting separation from other traffic and terrain
4. They line you up perfectly on the runway heading and on the runway centerline, and at the correct altitude for a descend
5. They tell you to switch to tower and give you a new frequency (it should probably be in your radio presets)
6. You ask tower to land
7. Tower gives you clearance, wind and qfe, or tell you to go around if anything is wrong
8. you land and taxi off, tower tells you to contact ground
9. you contact ground and they give you the taxiways to parking, including hold short instructions to make way for other traffic (or tell them to hold short)

or compare

1. ask for engine start (or just do it, which confuses the hell out of atc)
2. ask for taxi
3. be given taxi clearance (no instructions though)
4. start to taxi, and be told "hold position" every 3 seconds
5. get to the start of the runway, ask for takeoff clearance. be denied, then granted, even if there is traffic on final or someone else on the runway

with

1. ask for taxi clearance
2. be given taxiways and hold short points, and also traffic is ordered by planned departure time
3. contact tower
4. ask for takeoff clearance, or takeoff clearance for formation takeoff
5. be given runway, wind and clearance if safe
6. take off
7. contact departure
8. be given a heading based on your flight plan
9. be handed off to awacs

readbacks are automatic, so you don't have to screw around with the comms menu.

at any point can you ask for additional information (wind, which runway, qfe, qnh), emergency, or for them to retransmit. if at any point it becomes unsafe they tell you to abort and give you new vectors.

 

[sirrah]

45 minutes ago, FalcoGer said:

or compare

1. ask for engine start (or just do it, which confuses the hell out of atc)
2. ask for taxi
3. be given taxi clearance (no instructions though)
4. start to taxi, and be told "hold position" every 3 seconds
5. get to the start of the runway, ask for takeoff clearance. be denied, then granted, even if there is traffic on final or someone else on the runway

 

You forgot to mention, that currently you will only start to receive "cleared for takeoff" (or rather "unable to clear for takeoff" ) responses, once you've already entered the active runway.

(As opposed to what should be: getting instructions prior to entering the active rwy)

[Gary]

4 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

Compare

1. You ask for inbound
2. you ask for ADF heading
3. you ask for landing
4. if you are lucky they respond and let you land, even if there is currently a column of tanks, a burning wreckage or some holes on/in the runway

with

1. You tune approach
2. You ask approach for a radar vector approach
3. They give you a runway, qfe and then progressive vectors, altitudes and speeds - which results in you getting separation from other traffic and terrain
4. They line you up perfectly on the runway heading and on the runway centerline, and at the correct altitude for a descend
5. They tell you to switch to tower and give you a new frequency (it should probably be in your radio presets)
6. You ask tower to land
7. Tower gives you clearance, wind and qfe, or tell you to go around if anything is wrong
8. you land and taxi off, tower tells you to contact ground
9. you contact ground and they give you the taxiways to parking, including hold short instructions to make way for other traffic (or tell them to hold short)

or compare

1. ask for engine start (or just do it, which confuses the hell out of atc)
2. ask for taxi
3. be given taxi clearance (no instructions though)
4. start to taxi, and be told "hold position" every 3 seconds
5. get to the start of the runway, ask for takeoff clearance. be denied, then granted, even if there is traffic on final or someone else on the runway

with

1. ask for taxi clearance
2. be given taxiways and hold short points, and also traffic is ordered by planned departure time
3. contact tower
4. ask for takeoff clearance, or takeoff clearance for formation takeoff
5. be given runway, wind and clearance if safe
6. take off
7. contact departure
8. be given a heading based on your flight plan
9. be handed off to awacs

readbacks are automatic, so you don't have to screw around with the comms menu.

at any point can you ask for additional information (wind, which runway, qfe, qnh), emergency, or for them to retransmit. if at any point it becomes unsafe they tell you to abort and give you new vectors.

 

I think most forum users here will know of a certain sim that does do all this very well already.

Personally, my enjoyment of DCS would be significently greater if it also had this level of ATC interaction.

I know ED keep saying its a lot of work and not so easy to do (and I don't doubt this for a second) but as with most massive tasks in life, taking bite sized small steps towards an end goal would have surely resulted in something better than what we currently have already.

Anyway, ED have confirmed ATC is not a priority.

Given the fact that priority tasks take years to complete, I've resigned myself to the realisation that 3rd party and DLC content creators are the only likely source of ATC improvements I will see in the coming years.

Regards,

Gary

[cfrag]

24 minutes ago, Gary said:

Anyway, ED have confirmed ATC is not a priority.

I don't think it ever was. It's a haphazard, silly implementation that points to an underqualified temp worker with a passing knowledge (i.e. might have flown with someone and heard some chatter) of some procedures. 

When someone rambles about DCS's supposed 'realism' this is the first thing that comes to my mind. "Realism" my left foot. The current implementation is a bad joke, and a massive blemish on ED's record. My father used to say "anything worth doing is worth doing well". Sadly, no such ethics evident here. I prefer current ATC taken out completely rather than having this broken, amateurish stuff. It seems that ED have gone that step in Multiplayer already (GND/TWR no longer respond in MP when you contact them). 

[SharpeXB]

8 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

And you got it backwards. dynamic campaign requires a working ATC as a prerequisite.

I would settle for having either of these when they’re ready. No need in my mind to bundle them. I don’t see myself using the in-game ATC very much outside a future DC though. 
 

[Ghostrider142]

Is there a mod that improves the shambles of the ATC for airports or the supercarrier?

[Gary]

On 1/3/2025 at 2:22 AM, Ghostrider142 said:

Is there a mod that improves the shambles of the ATC for airports or the supercarrier?

Only modification I know of presently to improve things is the "mute" button!

On a more serious note I've seen a couple of individuals out there who are working on generic improvements but nothing solid available just yet. We await in hope though!

 

Regards,

Gary

[ruxtmp]

On 1/2/2025 at 9:22 PM, Ghostrider142 said:

Is there a mod that improves the shambles of the ATC for airports or the supercarrier?

There is Dynamic ATC which is in the works.

[Ghostrider142]

On 1/8/2025 at 4:33 PM, ruxtmp said:

There is Dynamic ATC which is in the works.

Thanks!

[Gary]

This looks really promising!

 

[sirrah]

39 minutes ago, Gary said:

This looks really promising!

 

Very cool indeed