Unrealistic way of flying when chased

[M1Combat]

I didn't really mean that entire post jsut directed at you  ;)...  Kinda looks that way after taking another peak though :).

 

I tend to switch gears in my head going into a summary and not tell anyone about it

[Ala13_ManOWar]

11 hours ago, M1Combat said:

I tend to switch gears in my head going into a summary and not tell anyone about it

No worries, that's well known to me.

[Hobel]

Am 30.7.2022 um 00:45 schrieb M1Combat:

not that one netcode has "problems" and the other doesn't.  I would bet that ED is trying to do a LOT more with their netcode and that if you tried to do the same with the netcode of the other software it may or may not work as well.  We can't test that unfortunately.

I can only report what I observe and DCS has significant problems in this area. This is as said in other games not so extreme to observe.

The one in the video is rather still one of the harmless problems.

if I have time and desire I will document the whole thing at some point times

 

when a server reaches a certain number of players it comes increasingly to such "jumps" "rubber band" behavior, this is on every server sometimes more or less to observe.

In other Scenarios , when I play with friends, we sometimes agree to forgo roles in dogfights because that alone, for whatever reason, can cause problems.

I think and hope that the new engine could improve that but also already something

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Hobel

[motoadve]

Been flying sims for 25 plus years, and DCS for the past 2 months.(only fly warbirds)

I find DCS the most realistic WWII sim by far, I also fly real planes and one of those a warbird trainer, last week I offered here in the forums to take any DCS pilot who lives in WA state for simulated dogfight (have done the same with IL2 and taken a few people) this time no DCS pilot showed up, so took a friend.

After flying DCS Warbirds for 2 months constantly, I have a good feel for most online dogfighting and have seen the impossible jerking maneuvers, which kills immersion. During my dogfight simulation last week, I tried to compare the real event to DCS, FMs and DM are pretty good in DCS.

In VR checking six is pretty realistic, a bit easier than being strapped to a 4 point harness IRL, getting the head out of the cockpit is not (VR limits would be nice)

Force feedback its something that will make things closer to real.

And the most important is pilot fatigue, even in a simulated dogfight you start to get tired, and the speeds are between 200 and 350KPH, DCS warbirds are a lot faster and heavier, so more demanding, some sort of pilot fatigue red out blackout should be modeled to avoid those impossible jerky maneuvers, because really ruins immersion, the pilot is superhuman, blackout happens and its good, but jerking the plane  positive Gs then negatives time after time repeatedly , its not realistic,  we never see these in real WWII footage.

 

 

[Rudel_chw]

4 minutes ago, motoadve said:

last week I offered here in the forums to take any DCS pilot who lives in WA state for simulated dogfight ... no DCS pilot showed up

 

Believe me, if I lived nearer you I would have loved to take you up on your generous offer   ...  thanks for sharing your point of view, and I agree fully: simulation of pilot fatigue would be good, at the very least for MP play.

[peachmonkey]

22 hours ago, motoadve said:

 

In VR checking six is pretty realistic, a bit easier than being strapped to a 4 point harness IRL, getting the head out of the cockpit is not (VR limits would be nice)

 

 

yup, concur with your assessment. 

One thing to add, and I think it's the 80% reason why such stick pumping is possible:   owl head flying.

• With track-ir/snap-to-six views it's very easy for a monitor player to look back and stay in 180 reversed position for prolonged times. That allows the play to watch the trajectory of the chaser and quickly react just in time when his/her guns line up.
• with VR neck-saver, it's a similar story, but it's a lot more disorienting due to the depth perception/equilibrium, however I'm sure one can spend enough time and train him/herself to fly backwards.
• with 1:1 VR (without necksaver) it's much much harder to keep your eyes on the enemy, mostly because you see him out of the corner of your eye where it's blurry and staying focused on him for more than 2-3 seconds it's just plain painful. However, one can cheat here as well via a swivel chair... 

Any way you look at it there's not a single solution that could prevent this behavior. 

If ED introduces a limitation to such snap-6 views, not sure how, maybe limit amount of time a player can keep the 180 degree pan position, or some other creative ways. And for the swivel chair cheat it'll have to be some intelligent recognition from the game that resets the VR view back to the front and center after 3-4 seconds, or something like that. But I'm 100% it will never happen, so I suggest we just drop this conversation altogether and don't waste our time on gaming-the-game aspect of DCS.  

Edited April 16, 2023 by peachmonkey

[grafspee]

It is rather problem of all combat sims not only DCS. I don't think that is any solution for this. I mean good solution.

[motoadve]

1 hour ago, peachmonkey said:

yup, concur with your assessment. 

One thing to add, and I think it's the 80% reason why such stick pumping is possible:   owl head flying.

• With track-ir/snap-to-six views it's very easy for a monitor player to look back and stay in 180 reversed position for prolonged times. That allows the play to watch the trajectory of the chaser and quickly react just in time when his/her guns line up.
• with VR neck-saver, it's a similar story, but it's a lot more disorienting due to the depth perception/equilibrium, however I'm sure one can spend enough time and train him/herself to fly backwards.
• with 1:1 VR (without necksaver) it's much much harder to keep your eyes on the enemy, mostly because you see him out of the corner of your eye where it's blurry and staying focused on him for more than 2-3 seconds it's just plain painful. However, one can cheat here as well via a swivel chair... 

Any way you look at it there's not a single solution that could prevent this behavior. 

If ED introduces a limitation to such snap-6 views, not sure how, maybe limit amount of time a player can keep the 180 degree pan position, or some other creative ways. And for the swivel chair cheat it'll have to be some intelligent recognition from the game that resets the VR view back to the front and center after 3-4 seconds, or something like that. But I'm 100% it will never happen, so I suggest we just drop this conversation altogether and don't waste our time on gaming-the-game aspect of DCS.  

 

No easy solution for checking 6 if people want to cheat they can, Track IR fly looking backwards , VR Necksaver quick check six 180 degrees or just regular VR move your head out of the cockpit. (all this is  up to each person depending how realistic they want to fly)

Pilot physiology could be improved though, so pilots are not able to do quick negative G followed by quick positive Gs, or pull high Gs at the edge of the black out forever.

 

[peachmonkey]

5 hours ago, motoadve said:

No easy solution for checking 6 if people want to cheat they can, Track IR fly looking backwards , VR Necksaver quick check six 180 degrees or just regular VR move your head out of the cockpit. (all this is  up to each person depending how realistic they want to fly)

Pilot physiology could be improved though, so pilots are not able to do quick negative G followed by quick positive Gs, or pull high Gs at the edge of the black out forever.

 

indeed, that would be lovely, and judging by the convo's in IL2 forums about this feature 1-2 years ago it's definitely a topic with widely spread opinions and suggestions, that never seem to culminate in any manageable solution.   But I can tell you in my 1:1 VR experience (with FFB mind you, using the 3d printed Vpforce Rhino unit) it's pretty close to 'reality' when I'm trying to figure out where my opponent is, trying to judge the resistance of the FFB when doing all sorts of chandelier maneuvers, and bumping my head against the sides of my chair (i got a car racing chair), it is a serious fight.

Especially, when I'm trying to survive in my meager Anton vs a Spit. I know I'm doomed, but I just want to put up as big of a fight as possible, even annoy the spit pilot to the extend where he just almost rams me (happened oh so many times) just to be done with my shenanigans, lol.

Edited April 17, 2023 by peachmonkey

[motoadve]

Do you use your Vpforce Rhino with extensions?

[Doughguy]

10 hours ago, motoadve said:

No easy solution for checking 6 if people want to cheat they can, Track IR fly looking backwards , VR Necksaver quick check six 180 degrees or just regular VR move your head out of the cockpit. (all this is  up to each person depending how realistic they want to fly)

Pilot physiology could be improved though, so pilots are not able to do quick negative G followed by quick positive Gs, or pull high Gs at the edge of the black out forever.

 

Theres tons of possibilities to implement fatigue. The thing is if people are willing to A) program it and B) people on the receiving end will accept it.

Any simple code can check if simple +/-y/x/z axis movements are input in rapid sucession and output some sort of "countermeasure" but it wouls need to be precisely determined when this happens. If you have a short stick with short throw your movements will be jerkier anyway. If you enter a pio, movements will be jerkier etc etc.

[Jef Costello]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:37 PM, motoadve said:

Been flying sims for 25 plus years, and DCS for the past 2 months.(only fly warbirds)

I find DCS the most realistic WWII sim by far, I also fly real planes and one of those a warbird trainer, last week I offered here in the forums to take any DCS pilot who lives in WA state for simulated dogfight (have done the same with IL2 and taken a few people) this time no DCS pilot showed up, so took a friend.

After flying DCS Warbirds for 2 months constantly, I have a good feel for most online dogfighting and have seen the impossible jerking maneuvers, which kills immersion. During my dogfight simulation last week, I tried to compare the real event to DCS, FMs and DM are pretty good in DCS.

In VR checking six is pretty realistic, a bit easier than being strapped to a 4 point harness IRL, getting the head out of the cockpit is not (VR limits would be nice)

Force feedback its something that will make things closer to real.

And the most important is pilot fatigue, even in a simulated dogfight you start to get tired, and the speeds are between 200 and 350KPH, DCS warbirds are a lot faster and heavier, so more demanding, some sort of pilot fatigue red out blackout should be modeled to avoid those impossible jerky maneuvers, because really ruins immersion, the pilot is superhuman, blackout happens and its good, but jerking the plane  positive Gs then negatives time after time repeatedly , its not realistic,  we never see these in real WWII footage.

 

 

I really appreciated your "Backcountry182" vids! It would be fantastic if you could do similar vids with your simulated dogfight flights!

Best regards

[Hiob]

On 7/17/2022 at 9:04 PM, =475FG= Dawger said:

Rapid oscillations from negative to positive G greatly reduces the positive G required to g-LOC, IRL.

If this were modelled, the stick pumping would disappear.

That is the missing piece here.

This!

The only "problem" I can see in DCS is the rather small and inconsistent amount of negative G punishment. And I have no idea how it should be! But I can imagine, that a sudden onset of -3G would be "a problem" to the pilot.

Second thought: There is a "too" close in dogfighting. When you are in the right spot as pursuing aircraft, the jinking becomes less of a problem. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Hiob

[OLD CROW]

The main issue is not the fact you can stay looking backwards forever with our "couch potato" pilot hardware devices or not. The main issue I've observed in ALL sims I've been playing for decades is the total lack of physiological symthomps on the pilot jerking the A/C in that mad way, also another physics linked to the A/C flying envelope. 

You don't have to be a IRL pilot and push the stick fully forward to experiment how disgusting is -1 or -2 G's load. In the comfort of you home you only have to put yourself upside down for a few seconds and leave the planetary G (9.8 m/s2) do its magic putting all your blood in your head.... You're not going to hold that for more than 1 minute.... at home... after that experiment then try to imagine yourself in such an stressful dogfighting situation pulling the stick repeatly that stupid way.... Got more sense playing russian roulette against a monkey with a 6 shots revolver loaded with 5 bullets.

Said that, in competitive enviroments like MP servers where 99% people only want to emulate Ice and Mav's adventures and be the king of the stats for a day or a month at all costs exploit expert players exist (they're that 99%, it's not their foult), but only cause game-sim allowed them to find the exploits. So basically they're good in terms of game developing: those smarties find an exploit, the rest of gamers (the other  1%) find them doing the exploit thing, then do the feedback (we can call them openly COMPLAINTS) to "devs" and the magicians of 0's & 1's find a more realistic solution in terms of FM, DM, pilot physics, etc,etc,...

I'm talking from coding ignorance, but simulate a red eye total screen fade when you push neg G's, a black out when you suddently pull positive G's, also a lack of response or delay in your stick due your pilot is disabled due you abused of both G's (neg's and pos) should be in the top 5 of a must have list to consider a game based in real physics "realistic" by itself... not for being more realistic than the rest of game- sims in the market. If the issue- exploit is here I don't mind what is going on in other places. And last but not least... I couldn't understand why the hell we have a simplier AI FM-DM that allows the AI also jerks in that "exploit ways"..... If I could choose I prefer a human exploiter than an AI: with a human I have more chances of catching her/him after a mistake cause complex FM-DM's are suppoused to be "similars" but with the AI's simplier mode things go weird also most of the times are the opposite of inmersive... just try to do a 2 vs. 2 where you're the only human and you're going to see how your wingman not only goes passive attacking opponents, it also becomes a fake wingman incapable of driving the opponent to your sight and only going shooting enemies once it is in your line of fire and become a "sitting duck", basically a 2 vs. 2 easily becomes a 1 vs. 3. 

Take this vid as just another vet pilot personal experiences, not as "God's words", but I remind you their words are closer to "realism-truth" than all we can type here for 3 simmer lifes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMKcO-T5Y4o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STFdRrWBW2w&list=PLIQZ9KH44rqXuC2jpWvJWW3fxetN7CeIo&index=2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh_mKBVzpA8&list=PLIQZ9KH44rqXuC2jpWvJWW3fxetN7CeIo&index=1

[MAD-MM]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:37 PM, motoadve said:

Been flying sims for 25 plus years, and DCS for the past 2 months.(only fly warbirds)

I find DCS the most realistic WWII sim by far, I also fly real planes and one of those a warbird trainer, last week I offered here in the forums to take any DCS pilot who lives in WA state for simulated dogfight (have done the same with IL2 and taken a few people) this time no DCS pilot showed up, so took a friend.

After flying DCS Warbirds for 2 months constantly, I have a good feel for most online dogfighting and have seen the impossible jerking maneuvers, which kills immersion. During my dogfight simulation last week, I tried to compare the real event to DCS, FMs and DM are pretty good in DCS.

In VR checking six is pretty realistic, a bit easier than being strapped to a 4 point harness IRL, getting the head out of the cockpit is not (VR limits would be nice)

Force feedback its something that will make things closer to real.

And the most important is pilot fatigue, even in a simulated dogfight you start to get tired, and the speeds are between 200 and 350KPH, DCS warbirds are a lot faster and heavier, so more demanding, some sort of pilot fatigue red out blackout should be modeled to avoid those impossible jerky maneuvers, because really ruins immersion, the pilot is superhuman, blackout happens and its good, but jerking the plane  positive Gs then negatives time after time repeatedly , its not realistic,  we never see these in real WWII footage.

 

 

 

Agree with you 100%, but you just see this only from a perspective of a real Pilot. As matter of fact at least for me, when i dont do easy aerobatics for half year in real life, after 10 Minutes i am done in sommer heat with only 3- 4G, without any exhausting negative G's Maneuvers. (you can say i am weakling, but most of the WW2 docs says 4G is what avarage untrained Pilot can sustain

Spitfire after the release was much more unforgiving with negative G jerk's for example. I think for non pilots that even fly with possible worse desktop Joysticks with hard centersprings where flying precisley about the center point for aiming is mutch more difficult, it is unpleaseant experience when you allways red/blackout.

They even have no experience how unpleaseant that is in real life after some positive G's to push the nose down.

Think from company standpoint you will not sell much, when 75% of the Players have difficultys to fly smooth without blacking/redout allways.

 

 

 

 

[motoadve]

22 minutes ago, MAD-MM said:

Agree with you 100%, but you just see this only from a perspective of a real Pilot. As matter of fact at least for me, when i dont do easy aerobatics for half year in real life, after 10 Minutes i am done in sommer heat with only 3- 4G, without any exhausting negative G's Maneuvers. (you can say i am weakling, but most of the WW2 docs says 4G is what avarage untrained Pilot can sustain

Spitfire after the release was much more unforgiving with negative G jerk's for example. I think for non pilots that even fly with possible worse desktop Joysticks with hard centersprings where flying precisley about the center point for aiming is mutch more difficult, it is unpleaseant experience when you allways red/blackout.

They even have no experience how unpleaseant that is in real life after some positive G's to push the nose down.

Think from company standpoint you will not sell much, when 75% of the Players have difficultys to fly smooth without blacking/redout allways.

 

 

 

 

I just started 2 months ago in DCS, was pleasantly surprised at how detailed and realistic the airplanes FM and DM feel, but compared to this I was surprised at how simple the pilot physiology modeling is for a sim that feels so realistic.

IL2 did a good job at pilot physiology modelling, and it was a game changer the way you approached a fight after they changed it, lots more interesting , you have to plan and take your own stamina into account so you know you cannot abuse your pilot, and it made for more realistic dogfights, I would say IL2 pilots were very impressed with it and really liked the result, for a sim that has a simple FM and DM, they did good on that department.

 

[peachmonkey]

19 hours ago, motoadve said:

Do you use your Vpforce Rhino with extensions?

yup, I do.

- Rhino itself has a very tall gimbal compared to standard joysticks, i'd say it's about ~10cm

- I added another 10cm extension

- then I added another 20cm curved S extension on top of it.

So in total it's about ~42cm (measured with the tape, it's at 17") between the pivot points and the base of of the grip.

Edited April 17, 2023 by peachmonkey

[motoadve]

31 minutes ago, peachmonkey said:

yup, I do.

- Rhino itself has a very tall gimbal compared to standard joysticks, i'd say it's about ~10cm

- I added another 10cm extension

- then I added another 20cm curved S extension on top of it.

So in total it's about ~42cm (measured with the tape, it's at 17") between the pivot points and the base of of the grip.

 

Ok, I want one then 

How do I get on the waiting list?

[Red_Pilot]

7 часов назад, motoadve сказал:

I just started 2 months ago in DCS, was pleasantly surprised at how detailed and realistic the airplanes FM and DM feel, but compared to this I was surprised at how simple the pilot physiology modeling is for a sim that feels so realistic.

IL2 did a good job at pilot physiology modelling, and it was a game changer the way you approached a fight after they changed it, lots more interesting , you have to plan and take your own stamina into account so you know you cannot abuse your pilot, and it made for more realistic dogfights, I would say IL2 pilots were very impressed with it and really liked the result, for a sim that has a simple FM and DM, they did good on that department.

 

     I fly in the IL-2 very often and everyone who flies in the IL-2 knows that the result of the development of physiology, unfortunately, is not as positive as you described. There are many complaints about the difficulty of understanding how tired your pilot is. In addition, oddly enough, this did not solve the problem of wobbling in the IL-2 at all, and there are still a lot of complaints about wobbling there.

     And besides this, there is another big problem: in DCS, there is no tightening of the control of the pi chan of high speed in Spitfires and mustangs, as for example there is in the 109th. Flying a mustang with a careless half-second movement, you can tear off the wings at a speed of 300 or 400 miles per hour - it's so incredibly easy to control a DCS pitch at high speeds. What will happen when the pilot becomes tired, I'm even afraid to think

Edited April 17, 2023 by Red_Pilot

[peachmonkey]

15 minutes ago, motoadve said:

Ok, I want one then 

How do I get on the waiting list?

to learn everything about it join their discord:   https://discord.gg/sQWnQTBQ  check the FAQ section, the owner is walmis (you can ping him/ask questions directly in discord, he is very active)

To pre-order one there's a website: http://order.vpforce.eu/

[Gui_Santos]

I noticed this kind of "maneuver" and thought it was AI, but then I realized it was guys.
Speaking as a former professional kart driver, any load above 2.5G's for a long time (mainly lateral when the lung is pressed against the rib and the seat, 
becomes impossible to sustain for more than 10-15 seconds, even if the pilot has the physical preparation of an athlete). But then someone asks. How can F1 drivers then make it? Simple, they are attached to the seat so that no more than half a centimeter remains and they don't need space for the parachute. Very different from what existed in the 1940s. As for the fighters of the anti-g suit generation, I don't know how long they can withstand a curve,
 but it shouldn't be something much bigger either. Stressing that I'm talking about lateral acceleration. 
The positive and negative G's of ascents and descents the simulator already does the role well...
Hugs from Brazil!

Edited April 17, 2023 by Gui_Santos
formatation text

[motoadve]

13 minutes ago, peachmonkey said:

to learn everything about it join their discord:   https://discord.gg/sQWnQTBQ  check the FAQ section, the owner is walmis (you can ping him/ask questions directly in discord, he is very active)

To pre-order one there's a website: http://order.vpforce.eu/

Thanks, just pre ordered it.

[4eyes]

All this saddens me. It's all about Kill Rates. So many people asking DCS to become more like War Thunder.   

[Ala13_ManOWar]

11 hours ago, 4eyes said:

All this saddens me. It's all about Kill Rates. So many people asking DCS to become more like War Thunder.   

This +1M .

[BIGNEWY]

folks stick to the forum rules please. 

We are not interested in comparison with other sims, please keep it DCS related only. 

Thanks