FM Changes

[DerNeueMensch]

Could we get some notes on the changes of the FM? The plane feels different after the patch. There is a greater tendency for the nose to wobble around after aileron rolls. The effectiveness of the rudder in the high AoA regime seems to have been decreased. 

I only had a short flight. Maybe it's just me. What do you guys think? Have you noticed that too? 

 

[Loukuins]

I think the same, the stick is too sensible now for me, and the plane wobble too much it's not enjoyable anymore I don't want to fly the module because of how the FM is getting broken...

[jaguara5]

I have to agree. Way to wobbly. The other thing i've noticed  is that the plane can hold it's speed amazingly good (as in the initial release),   in a horizontal / slightly descending  turn max AB clean configuration 70% fuel  low to medium altitude, i'm unable to  bleed the speed below ~320kts, even with high / max AoA inputs. On a split S if you don't cut throttle  / release airbrakes you overspeed  very very quickly. But i don't know if this is realistic or not, real pilots have to comment on that. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by jaguara5

[thejokereye]

I agree. After the patch it feels much more wobbly and oscillates after any change in pitch.

[Rhinozherous]

+1

Extreme wobble, not fun to fly.

[ARM505]

I'm not sure if it's related, but the aircraft is now mildly unstable when flying with the autopilot engaged - there are mild roll, pitch, and yaw oscillations with heading and ALT hold mode on. I don't remember it doing that before the patch?

[Giskvoosk]

nullSame topic while on a different note, did it receive speed boost post-patch. 

I managed to achieve 768 kt level flight standard condition at SL, full internal fuel and only 2 wing tip P. I wonder if we were able to achieve this pre-patch, because from my memory i could reach 710~720 maximum in same condition earlier.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Giskvoosk

[gnomechild]

Yeah the plane definitely feels much different. Would be nice to know what has changed and what is still WIP, etc. 

[Lykurgus]

The plane feels like it used to at low speed high aoa at all times now. Even at nearly supersonic and Trans sonic speeds the nose wants to wobble around like a boat rolling in the ocean. I think someone may have made a mistake with adverse yaw in the flight model.

The pitch axis also feels even more extreme......if that's somehow possible. The engine also seems more prone to breaking while just doing normal bfm. One constant though is the weird throttle axis.

[OxideMako]

I've noticed the rudder seems to move on it's own without any input from the pilot now after this patch, and seems to be contributing to the excessive "wobble" the F1 now has. It's almost like pilot induced oscillation, except the plane is doing it.

And I've checked my axis bindings too to make sure it wasn't that. (twice in fact)

In general, the flight control axes now feel very disconnected from what the plane is actually doing as a result of your input. If this is more true to life, then that's good, but if not it's a pretty major issue.

[Tavo89]

Personally I like the feel of the Mirage F1, must be because I like unstable airplanes.

It feels a little less heavy than before, I can recommend you to use trim throughout the flight.

Horizontal instability is very common in the Mirage family, that may be what they are experiencing in their flights.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Tavo89

[felixx75]

Yes, it's wobbling all over the place.
I am not a real pilot and certainly not a former F1 pilot, but i can hardly imagine that the F1 actually behaves the way it currently does in DCS (also compared to other modules in DCS).

[firefox121]

 I have noticed that with the new OB patch , ALL mirage F1 curves in joystick settings are gone, I just configured all the curves and the plane responds more or less than the previous version.

[felixx75]

34 minutes ago, firefox121 said:

 I have noticed that with the new OB patch , ALL mirage F1 curves in joystick settings are gone, I just configured all the curves and the plane responds more or less than the previous version.

I also had this suspicion, but all my set curves are still there. So it can't just be that. Unless the game shows me the curves, but does not use them.

[Get_Lo]

2 hours ago, Tavo89 said:

Personally I like the feel of the Mirage F1, must be because I like unstable airplanes.

It feels a little less heavy than before, I can recommend you to use trim throughout the flight.

Horizontal instability is very common in the Mirage family, that may be what they are experiencing in their flights.

 

I used to like it, and I also like unstable planes. The new thrust feels great but the other handling characteristics feel degraded. and lets not mention the new top speed when clean...

[felixx75]

3 minutes ago, Get_Lo said:

the new top speed when clean...

I don't think this is correct (and will remain so - up to 1100kts @sl - really...). Especially compared to other modules in DCS.

[Get_Lo]

6 hours ago, Giskvoosk said:

nullSame topic while on a different note, did it receive speed boost post-patch. 

I managed to achieve 768 kt level flight standard condition at SL, full internal fuel and only 2 wing tip P. I wonder if we were able to achieve this pre-patch, because from my memory i could reach 710~720 maximum in same condition earlier.

 

New top speeds:
670 with 4 missiles
770 with 2 missiles
870 with 0 missiles
Something here is wrong, the top speed clean is far too high and the fact that 2 tip missiles slow you down so much is also bizarre. 

Just now, felixx75 said:

I don't think this is correct (and will remain so - up to 1100kts @sl - really...). Especially compared to other modules in DCS.

1200SL at sea level even, but it can only sustain 870, which is still wayyyy too fast

[Dscross]

Myself and another guy from my squadron took the F1 up last night. We both loved the F1, and we both love the M2000. We like Mirages. However, the flight model now... It's broken. It wasn't fun to fly. Last week both of us would have rated the F1 in our top 3 airplanes. It's not even worth flying now. It's unstable in every axis. It pitches in roll, bank and yaw. The autopilot doesn't seem to hold it anywhere, and getting a stable solution for rockets, guns or bombs doesn't really happen. It porpoises like a sea world dolphin on meth laced fish. 

When the F1 first came out the flight model wasn't perfect, but it felt like aircraft flew how you assumed it would. Some airplanes simply feel "right" they fly like you expect them too. The F14 feels "right". The A10 feels "right." The P47 feels "right." the F1 doesn't feel right. With the current flight model flying the F1 is like flying a helicopter, you're constantly fighting the aircraft.  I personally got around 10 hours of F1 time in the first two days of release. (I had a free weekend, don't judge...). I've flown it much more since. As I said, last week I would have rated it near the top of my favorites list. Last night? after a half hour my buddy and I got out F16's and flew them the remainder of our sim time. 

I'll spend more time with the F1 over the next week, but right now it's not enjoyable to fly. Looks like a Hangar queen until it gets fixed. 

[sedenion]

I think the devs are hard working on the flight model and pushed a WIP version not realising it will be embedded in the update.

[Get_Lo]

it almost feels hotfix worthy

[Dscross]

5 minutes ago, sedenion said:

I think the devs are hard working on the flight model and pushed a WIP version not realising it will be embedded in the update.

Let's hope. I'm sure they'll fix it, but man is it broken. At release I was very impressed with the F1. It was one of the best releases I've seen. And I know it's early access, so I'm not holding a grudge or anything. However, I have trouble understanding why anyone would think that the flight model that got released in the update was a good idea. Anyway, let's hope hope they fix it soon, I want more F1 time.  

[sedenion]

5 minutes ago, Dscross said:

I have trouble understanding why anyone would think that the flight model that got released in the update was a good idea.

As I said, I think this were not intentional...

[Bremspropeller]

56 minutes ago, Get_Lo said:

New top speeds:
670 with 4 missiles
770 with 2 missiles
870 with 0 missiles
Something here is wrong, the top speed clean is far too high and the fact that 2 tip missiles slow you down so much is also bizarre. 

I don't think 870 is "too fast" - it just doesn't fit in the big picture (vs loaded). Stores drag might be off.

What I find funny is that I can get almost M1 on the deck in MIL, but I can't get supersonic in blower in high alt in the same configuration (two tips and a centerline tank).

[Get_Lo]

Just now, Bremspropeller said:

I don't think 870 is "too fast" - it just doesn't fit in the big picture (vs loaded). Stores drag might be off.

What I find funny is that I can get almost M1 on the deck in MIL, but I can't get supersonic in blower in high alt in the same configuration (two tips and a centerline tank).

all these speeds are at Sea level. 870 at Sea level is too fast. 

[Bremspropeller]

1 minute ago, Get_Lo said:

870 at Sea level is too fast. 

Not necessarily. There's a difference between what the airplane could get to (aero vs thrust) and what is *smart* on the pilot's side.