DCS Newsletter discussion 9th September 2022 - A-1H Skyraider | Supercarrier progress | AI BFM

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, SkateZilla said:

Where and when a 3rd party decides to post updates is entirely up to 3rd Party, they are not required to post on ED's Forums, they are their own company.

 

It's at the barest of minimums a symbiotic relationship. They are building a product for DCS, that will only work in DCS, with the permission of those at DCS. I don't see that ED can truly divest themselves of some level of both authority and responsibility when they take on and announce a module by a third party developer. 

 

 

1 hour ago, SkateZilla said:

 

Thou shall not criticize this, as it will only deter developers from posting updates if they feel all they will see is criticism on timing, where they post, what they post.
 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the negative reactions from the community stem mostly from a lack of communications more than anything else.

 

I had some questions/concerns/gripes about the MB-339, posted them in the forum, and pretty quick after that the dev jumped in, civil and smart, explained a few things, and turned me from a bitcher to a buyer. I see no problem with devs being straightforward and interactive with the community. Good communications can work wonders.

[SkateZilla]

28 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

It's at the barest of minimums a symbiotic relationship. They are building a product for DCS, that will only work in DCS, with the permission of those at DCS. I don't see that ED can truly divest themselves of some level of both authority and responsibility when they take on and announce a module by a third party developer. 

 

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the negative reactions from the community stem mostly from a lack of communications more than anything else.

 

I had some questions/concerns/gripes about the MB-339, posted them in the forum, and pretty quick after that the dev jumped in, civil and smart, explained a few things, and turned me from a bitcher to a buyer. I see no problem with devs being straightforward and interactive with the community. Good communications can work wonders.

Correct, A lot of the negativity is from lack of communication,
However look at the last 2 weeks, there's complaining about the timing of announcements, and updates being on a Developers FB page and not here, etc.

The communication is there.

 

 

[Beirut]

2 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

Correct, A lot of the negativity is from lack of communication,
However look at the last 2 weeks, there's complaining about the timing of announcements, and updates being on a Developers FB page and not here, etc.

The communication is there.

 

 

 

I can appreciate that, but that is why I mentioned "good" communication.

 

What happens on Fartbook can hardly be regarded as good communication when the preponderance of DCS flyers and potential customers, one would think, are on this main DCS forum. And the complaints/concerns are not about announcements, per se, but about how announcements lead to legitimate questions that are often left unanswered at best. As stated, if asked when the Skyraider will be available, for example, I suspect a non answer, possibly in the long term, possibly for years(?) will be the only answer. That is the issue I speak to.

 

Again, if a fancy teaser trailer is put out, with a clear "Check it out! You really want this because it so cool!" message, then I'm not sure the best response as to when it might be available boils down to something along the lines of "Don't know, and wouldn't tell you if we did." That also cannot necessarily be regarded as "good" communication.

[NineLine]

4 hours ago, Beirut said:

Again, if a fancy teaser trailer is put out, with a clear "Check it out! You really want this because it so cool!" message, then I'm not sure the best response as to when it might be available boils down to something along the lines of "Don't know, and wouldn't tell you if we did." That also cannot necessarily be regarded as "good" communication.

We cannot control how or what an individual reads into a teaser video, an announcement story or other sorts of media we do for upcoming modules, the quotes you included surely are not things we say. We generally do have a very good idea of when things will arrive, less so on 3rd Party products, but in general, we have been doing this long enough to have a good idea. What we do not do anymore is release a guesstimate, even a highly educated one. If we were to give you a ballpark figure, that would be passed around user to user and eventually wind up being posted as a promise. There are so many things within and outside of our control on these things until we are very sure its close, we wont say much about delivery timing, even the AH-64 and hiccups along the way just because things can be volatile when the programming is so complex.

So at the end of the day, we will share info when we can, when we think its best, you guys are the only ones that can control your emotions, and decide if you are going to hype yourself into another state of mind or not. We are always looking at ways to better announce, and keep the excitement up on new and exciting things. 

Look, its very interesting to me that we have so many differing opinions around about these things, some would rather not hear anything till release is next week, some what news all the time, as much as they can get even if its the same news everyday, some are just chill and roll with it. None of these people are going to have the same reaction to early announcements, but always one of them at least is going to be disappointed they heard something too soon, or they heard something too late, or they heard something not enough. So while you have no reason to see how balancing that can be tricky, we are always trying to do our best for you guys, for our 3rd Party Partners and for DCS World as a whole. We wont always get it right, but we are doing what we do for the greater good, even if you don't always think so.

Sure lots of bad stuff could happen between now and delivery, a 3rd Party could fall apart, a team could hit a slow down, etc etc. Stuff happens, lets just try and enjoy the ride no matter what seat you are in, after all, no matter what happens you have to admit there is some cool stuff happening in DCS, and you guys havent even seen all of it, even after the promised announcements, there is still a ton happening. 

Don't worry, be happy.
Thanks!

[Tom Kazansky]

Wouldn't it be better to create a new subforum for every new 3rd party right at the day they officially announce modules?

Look at OnReTech subforum which is a good example. No complaint-storms, no extensive discussion here about their Sinai map and the best thing: they achieved that with 2 posts and 5 replies in that subforum.

[MAXsenna]

27 minutes ago, Tom Kazansky said:

Wouldn't it be better to create a new subforum for every new 3rd party right at the day they officially announce modules?

Look at OnReTech subforum which is a good example. No complaint-storms, no extensive discussion here about their Sinai map and the best thing: they achieved that with 2 posts and 5 replies in that subforum.

Was thinking the same!

[dief47]

New short teaser video on Twitter

 

[MAXsenna]

 

39 minutes ago, dief47 said:

New short teaser video on Twitter

Begs the question what "soon" is.  

Edited September 12, 2022 by MAXsenna

[Rudel_chw]

7 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Begs the quest

Begs the question what "soon" is.  

currently busy learning the Mirage F1, so I will of course start saving to purchase it when released, but don’t feel the need to beg for any dates. 

[MAXsenna]

15 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

currently busy learning the Mirage F1, so I will of course start saving to purchase it when released, but don’t feel the need to beg for any dates. 

True that. But have we ever seen a teasers with "soon" in the vids before now, with the Raider and the Herc?

[Beirut]

5 hours ago, NineLine said:

We cannot control how or what an individual reads into a teaser video,

 

Agreed. But that does not change the fact that the teaser video is made to illicit a particular response. You can't control what the individual reads into it, but you are trying. It's salesmanship and I have no problem with that. I love the trailers you guys out out. 

 

 

5 hours ago, NineLine said:

We generally do have a very good idea of when things will arrive, less so on 3rd Party products, but in general, we have been doing this long enough to have a good idea. What we do not do anymore is release a guesstimate, even a highly educated one. If we were to give you a ballpark figure, that would be passed around user to user and eventually wind up being posted as a promise. There are so many things within and outside of our control on these things until we are very sure its close, we wont say much about delivery timing, even the AH-64 and hiccups along the way just because things can be volatile when the programming is so complex.

 

Fair enough. 

 

5 hours ago, NineLine said:

So at the end of the day, we will share info when we can, when we think its best, you guys are the only ones that can control your emotions, and decide if you are going to hype yourself into another state of mind or not. We are always looking at ways to better announce, and keep the excitement up on new and exciting things. 

 

Also fair. But you guys love it when we're all hyped for a module, and you encourage the hype, because it means increased sale. It's business. No problem with that at all. That said, there is still a divide between the (very) early announcements, the years later delivery, and the often stunning silence in between. 

 

But I do appreciate you taking the time to speak to the issue.

 

5 hours ago, NineLine said:

 

Don't worry, be happy.
Thanks!

 

You brought me a lovely Ka-50, so all is well. 

[Beirut]

Just now, draconus said:

 

 

The new fantastic Ka-50 III module is coming soon with new sensors, weapon, cockpit and model! How do you feel about that?

 

Wunderbar! 

[HeavyGun1450]

On 9/11/2022 at 7:01 AM, Hotdognz said:

I actually don't care at all for any off the new plane announcements anymore, my self i'm losing interest with the core game which is what only ED can fix, being with DCS since the days of Lockon I have seen how it all works with news from ED,  I really wish for more on what ED are doing with the core game, for example

The AI, its pretty bad on the ground using helicopters against any ground based asset, that's its actually become boring playing helicopter PVE missions and this is using all of the excellent missions I can find on user files that some great mission designers have made, the Apache and the Hind have really shown how bad the ground AI really is, we have announcements that AI animations are being updated, what about the logic.

The weather, the new clouds were great but the next update that was promised is taking a long time with no information for a long time from ED, the last I saw was a moving GIF that Nineline had somewhere.

Vulcan and multicore, as stated still in early testing, I believe we are 3 years on since that announcement with its being worked on as the std line, I get that ther is nothing to show that we can truly see but at least a report every now and then on how its going would be nice.

Combined Arms, nothing happening here at all from a game play point of view that I have heard about for a long time, it could be such an excellent module with some time spent on it.

The core game needs an overhaul, my group ran 3 servers over the last 4 year, 600 players registered on our Discord, some time sup to 40-50 a night online over all 3 servers (mission dependent mostly PVE) we are currently down to 2 severs and luckily to pull in 10-15 players on a weekend with a good Foothold mission, with a core 5-6 still playing week nights, we are about to drop to 1 server due to numbers, if our players want PVP we send them off to boost the better PVP servers numbers

I'm sure all the above is being worked on and no doubt I will be told all in good time.

This. Please work on the core game. It definitely evident that most of ED's resources are being put towards something else rather then working on core game stuff. 

[BIGNEWY]

Just now, HeavyGun1450 said:

This. Please work on the core game. It definitely evident that most of ED's resources are being put towards something else rather then working on core game stuff. 

you are incorrect, as we have mentioned before more than half of our team are working on the core of DCS, and the announcement of third party projects has no bearing on our work on the core of DCS. 

thanks

[Rosebud47]

On the bottom line, the discussion about communicating ( early access- ) release dates is about trust and reliability. 

On one hand it´s understandable, that ED and 3rd parties avoid communicating too much to the community, when the reactions of the community are mostly immature and childish, so the communication stopped or went out to different platforms with less immature and childish comments on the works the developers are proud of. But doesn´t the community itself grow to mature in these times? And isn´t such reaction towards the bad influence of parts of the community in itself kind of unprofessional or let´s say ´childish´? 

People losing trust when left obscured - this is where the harsh critics on every news and childish attitutes arise from.

Communicating deadlines with news and announcements for sure will create a more professional image for the developers and in reaction to that hopefully a more mature community.  

[HeavyGun1450]

44 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

you are incorrect, as we have mentioned before more than half of our team are working on the core of DCS, and the announcement of third party projects has no bearing on our work on the core of DCS. 

thanks

I am aware that 3rd party projects have no bearing on your work. However, for many years now the core mechanics and and gameplay have not changed much and it always seems like we are told to not ask about it or to be patient. I cant tell you how many bugs I have seen in the game that still arent fixed that are several months if not years old now.

[BIGNEWY]

4 minutes ago, HeavyGun1450 said:

I am aware that 3rd party projects have no bearing on your work. However, for many years now the core mechanics and and gameplay have not changed much and it always seems like we are told to not ask about it or to be patient. I cant tell you how many bugs I have seen in the game that still arent fixed that are several months if not years old now.

The work does take a long time, being patient is all we can do. When the team are ready to share more news we will share it. We would love to share more news, but can only give you news when there is something of significance to share. 

[Beirut]

1 minute ago, BIGNEWY said:

The work does take a long time, being patient is all we can all do. When the team are ready to share more news we will share it. We would love to share more news, but can only give you news when there is something of significance to share. 

 

Truth be told, if you're going to pull off something as wondrous as the new clouds, I am willing to show great patience. At least I'll try. 

 

I still marvel at those clouds. 

[BIGNEWY]

42 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

Truth be told, if you're going to pull off something as wondrous as the new clouds, I am willing to show great patience. At least I'll try. 

 

I still marvel at those clouds. 

Yes more weather work to come in the future, its something else to look forward to. 

thank you for being patient, we do appreciate it. 

[BIGNEWY]

moderated posts, please remember the rules and lets not have any name calling

thanks 

[NineLine]

11 hours ago, Tom Kazansky said:

Wouldn't it be better to create a new subforum for every new 3rd party right at the day they officially announce modules?

Look at OnReTech subforum which is a good example. No complaint-storms, no extensive discussion here about their Sinai map and the best thing: they achieved that with 2 posts and 5 replies in that subforum.

If the team is ready to support a subforum and wants it, we can add it. Many have other ways of communicating they are more comfortable with.

[Tom Kazansky]

Just now, NineLine said:

If the team is ready to support a subforum and wants it, we can add it. Many have other ways of communicating they are more comfortable with.

I understand that it might seem easier for new teams not to deal with our community. My suggestion/question was meant to avoid that ED and you moderators have to take all the complaints that imho should be addressed to those 3rd parties instead.

[Weasel]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb MAXsenna:

 

Begs the question what "soon" is.  

 

Not too far away

[NineLine]

50 minutes ago, Tom Kazansky said:

I understand that it might seem easier for new teams not to deal with our community. My suggestion/question was meant to avoid that ED and you moderators have to take all the complaints that imho should be addressed to those 3rd parties instead.

We have broad shoulders

But for sure, if a subsection is done, that team should be willing to communicate there. If they are not we wont create it. Finding that groove in just the right amount of communication with users is not always easy for these teams, and they cant always find someone willing to do it for them. 

[cordite]

If they aren't willing to participate in a sub forum here, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence.