need evidence Sorry, but 20 mins of INS prec alignment is far too long for sim and needs pre-aligned option.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Sorry, but 20 mins of INS prec alignment is far too long for sim and needs pre-aligned option.

That is absurdly long in sim and in real life. Laser ring INS gyros should align with high precision in 3-5 minutes. GLOSSNASS aided, a combat usable alignment should be no more then 3 minutes.

[BIGNEWY]

please PM me any unclassified evidence to support your claim. 

thank you

[Esac_mirmidon]

In the Open Beta you have the option to cold start prealigned if you want.

[Schlomo1933]

I believe he Dimitri is talking about multiplayer. There u can’t choose want pre alligment … and stored fast alligment is useless , because it drifts too much.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Who here thinks that waiting 20 minutes with rotors turning, before flying, is a practical feature ?

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

34 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Who here thinks that waiting 20 minutes with rotors turning, before flying, is a practical feature ?

Not practical for PC sim life. IDK about the real aircraft but there are some things that I feel do not need to be simulated to the T, or at least there should be an option.

[Hobel]

Am 23.3.2023 um 12:38 schrieb DmitriKozlowsky:

Sorry, but 20 mins of INS prec alignment is far too long for sim and needs pre-aligned option.

That is absurdly long in sim and in real life. Laser ring INS gyros should align with high precision in 3-5 minutes. GLOSSNASS aided, a combat usable alignment should be no more then 3 minutes.

In the Russian forum pictures from the manual were posted and these times seem to be correct.

also you can see from other post that the fast alignment is not intended for combat operations so 10-20min is the minimum for combat missions.

But in the Russian area Dev mentioned that sometime in the future there might be something similar to a prealignment so that you don't have to wait 15-20 minutes for an exact alignment, when that will come nobody knows.

 

Zitat

Laser ring INS gyros should align with high precision in 3-5 minutes. GLOSSNASS aided, a combat usable alignment should be no more then 3 minutes.

GLOSSNASS is not connected to the PVI-800 in our KA-50III so it does not affect the alignment.
The alignment is also so long because it is probably (correct me if you like) a part of the system must come to operating temperature.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Hobel

[Mars Exulte]

This is presumably all stuff that is done by the groundcrew before the pilot touches the aircraft, right? I'm all for nuts and bolts simulation, but it does seem this is one of the things that could be glossed over. Especially since we can rearm and refuel in less than 60 seconds.

The things ED, and by extension the community, obsess over, are as always... irregular.

[Hobel]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Mars Exulte:

This is presumably all stuff that is done by the groundcrew before the pilot touches the aircraft, right?

I think this is also taken as a reason for the possible "prealignment" that could occur in the future.

 

But as I said, no one knows when

[chumpeagle]

On 3/23/2023 at 11:44 AM, Esac_mirmidon said:

In the Open Beta you have the option to cold start prealigned if you want.

@Esac_mirmidon how do you do that? (I fly the Harrier as well and that has a pre-alignment option in Special Options, but I see no such thing for the KA-50) 

[Chump]

@chumpeagle This is an option in the Mission Editor on the "Additional properties for aircraft" [...] tab:

Unfortunately, players do not have this choice on a multiplayer server. It is preset per-mission.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Chump

[Esac_mirmidon]

Just kindly ask server admin to edit the options you like for.

[Mavkruger]

the solution is to set realistic or simplified in the editor, and the alignement or already aligned in spécial player option.

[PawlaczGMD]

I don't think it's a question of realism, but rather abstraction of ground crew procedures, and understanding of practicality in what is a computer game at the end of the day.

I believe that the real navigation system needs 40 mins to align. However, it is certainly something that the ground crew would set up, and would be done by the planned take-off time. 

The best solution would be to give players an  alignment "cheat" in Special options tab. This is not unprecedented, as many aircraft have things like simplified crosshair, take-off, nosewheel, etc.

If the Realism cheat is not set up on the server, the navigation system is simply unusable for any precise task, and I think it's less realistic than starting pre-aligned. I imagine the only time when a real pilot would take off without proper alignment is an emergency scramble. Any normal mission, the ground crew would set up the helicopter for planned take-off time.

 

In, particular, none of the Single Player campaigns that I've played have this enabled. They also plan the take-off time to be immediate. So in practice you just always have extremely poor nav precision. I strongly believe this is way less realistic than having your machine aligned when you load into a mission.

 

I personally actually enjoy playing with the weakness of the system, and needing to do fixtaking - however, this does no good if you lose alignment in a few minutes after anyway. What I don't enjoy is being expected to wait 20-40 mins before I start the Ka50 up to be able to meaningfully use the system.

Additionally, this is a video game, and you cannot expect people to wait this long. As someone above pointed out, refuel and rearm takes 2 minutes instead of dozens, and you can do it at any position in the airfield vicinity, so a departure from literal realism is not unprecedented here. Having the option to simplify this behavior is reasonable. I would see this as an abstraction of ground procedure.

[Hobel]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb PawlaczGMD:

I believe that the real navigation system needs 40 mins to align. However, it is certainly something that the ground crew would set up, and would be done by the planned take-off time. 

Basically agree.

but 20 minutes is correct even in real life. not 40 minutes

[PawlaczGMD]

22 minutes ago, Hobel said:

Basically agree.

but 20 minutes is correct even in real life. not 40 minutes

Isn't normal alignment 20 mins, and precision one 40 something? For reasons above, I basically never do them, so I'm not even sure, you might be right. I was referencing the precision alignment just FYI. It might be overkill.

[LorenLuke]

18 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Isn't normal alignment 20 mins, and precision one 40 something? For reasons above, I basically never do them, so I'm not even sure, you might be right. I was referencing the precision alignment just FYI. It might be overkill.

I think it's like 15 and 20.

[Hobel]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb LorenLuke:

I think it's like 15 and 20.

yes.

as in the real KA-50, as already mentioned an excerpt from the manual was posted in the Russian forum

[Bedouin]

On 3/30/2023 at 4:58 PM, Chump said:

@chumpeagle This is an option in the Mission Editor on the "Additional properties for aircraft" [...] tab:

Unfortunately, players do not have this choice on a multiplayer server. It is preset per-mission.

What the difference between fixtaking needed or not..? Rather what is fixtaking

 

[Yeti42]

Having worked on INS equipped aircraft with no GPS in the past, I can confirm that ground crew would typically align the INS and switch to Nav before the aircrew arrived. 

[Mars Exulte]

On 1/2/2024 at 6:15 AM, Yeti42 said:

Having worked on INS equipped aircraft with no GPS in the past, I can confirm that ground crew would typically align the INS and switch to Nav before the aircrew arrived. 

Damn casuals.

[julian265]

In this case I don't care what is realistic. A small minority would want to wait 20 minutes. Ka50s should default to being pre-aligned unless the mission designer selects otherwise.

[BigBorner]

Am 2.1.2024 um 13:06 schrieb Bedouin:

Rather what is fixtaking

You pre-program certain Landmarks in the Nav System with their coordinates. 

Then you lock this point via Shkval (or fly over that). Then you tell the INS that you just showed it this known point with known coordinates. Using that Info, INS can correct the drift because you just told it for a brief moment where the airframe really really is right now. 

[zerO_crash]

On 1/28/2024 at 10:23 AM, julian265 said:

In this case I don't care what is realistic. A small minority would want to wait 20 minutes. Ka50s should default to being pre-aligned unless the mission designer selects otherwise.

In this case, few care about what you believe, because at the end of fhe day, this is a simulator environment! If you want to take-off instantly, then you chose the wrong product, the market is saturated with software allowing you to spawn into battle with unlimited combat loads.

 

Luckily, ED PR this software as a simulator themselves, and if you, or anyone here, lacks 20 minutes for a full alignment procedure, they should consider thoroughly if they should be spending time on a simulator. This translates even more to reading up on manuals and understanding the aircraft, which requires even more time than that!

 

Let me introduce you, and the rest of the apparent heretics here to a new thought! Instead of starting up within 5 minutes (that's why accelerated INS procedure exists!), flying to the AO and getting shot down instantly (because you never planned anything, least of all, your flight), resulting in multiple restarts per session (accounting to more than 20 minutes, I'm sure!). You might as well use those 20 minutes of alignment to carefully look at where you're going, and what threats are estimated along the route, read the briefing you never have time for, and the likes. That way, at least you'll have more chance of staying alive.

 

In the end, if the task proves too monumental to handle, luckily, as mentioned before, you can go to the mission editor on equip your Ka-50 with baby wheels (reduced INS alignment times). The option however, is a detraction from reality, something this simulator wants to achieve, thus not being default. Qualitative estimations of how many people want the realistic INS vs. unrealistic one, is irrelevant. None of you have either data, nor any evidence for this. I however, have evidence that people join this simulator due to the realism aspect, as its main selling key. That's that!

Edited February 5 by zerO_crash

[average_pilot]

I'm struggling to even put my astonishment into words.