Turbulence

[motoadve]

Every time I fly in DCS, single missions, campaigns, or MP I feel like I'm flying through smooth air, even if it is windy on the rwy or up higher, there is no turbulence, miss the bumps and stuff.

Is turbulence modelled in DCS? if so why is not on any mission SP or MP, does it take a lot of CPU resources?

BTW Wake turbulence in DCS is spot on IMHO.

[razo+r]

Turbulence is a seperate setting that the mission designer needs to enable and set. It does not take up any performance, or at least I'm not aware of it.

 

[Mars Exulte]

Turbulence is modeled and most commonly encountered at lower altitudes when coming in to land and takeoff, and around mountains.it is also a setting so mission dependent like wind speed, many online servers probably disable it.

 There is (or was) something like thermals years ago, particularly under clouds (encountered in Yak-52 which is light enough it actually started climbing). I don't know the state of thermals now with the new cloud system as I haven't flown the Yak cross country (or at all) in ages. Also bear in mind heavier faster moving aircraft are less affected by all these things than something like a Yak, but yes they are present in some form.

[CommandT]

I also think turbulence in DCS is very very poor, even when selected in the ME. In general you always fly through perfectly smooth air - in clouds, over mountains, everywhere. It's one area where MSFS does feel light years ahead... just little bumps here and there. Really wish DCS made an attempt at fixing this, as it's an amazing simulation otherwise. 

Regarding wake turbulence I am really not convinced. I switched it off. Unless something has changed in the last year? I have around 5500h of flight time in real life just for reference. Maybe others will disagree but I am just not sold on the wake turbulence. Feels very weird sometimes and doesn't give you a sort of buffet you'd expect either. 

[motoadve]

38 minutes ago, CommandT said:

I also think turbulence in DCS is very very poor, even when selected in the ME. In general you always fly through perfectly smooth air - in clouds, over mountains, everywhere. It's one area where MSFS does feel light years ahead... just little bumps here and there. Really wish DCS made an attempt at fixing this, as it's an amazing simulation otherwise. 

Regarding wake turbulence I am really not convinced. I switched it off. Unless something has changed in the last year? I have around 5500h of flight time in real life just for reference. Maybe others will disagree but I am just not sold on the wake turbulence. Feels very weird sometimes and doesn't give you a sort of buffet you'd expect either. 

I edited a mission and increased turbulence to a maximum, in flight felt smooth only a minor turbulence feel now and then near the ground. 

It would be great to have turbulence when entering clouds, and some bumps now and then.

What don't you like about the wake turbulence? I only fly the warbirds in DCS and wake turbulence on those feels very similar to what I experience in real life while doing dogfight simulation in the CJ6 Nanchang, military trainer I fly.

[Mars Exulte]

1 hour ago, CommandT said:

I also think turbulence in DCS is very very poor, even when selected in the ME. In general you always fly through perfectly smooth air - in clouds, over mountains, everywhere. It's one area where MSFS does feel light years ahead... just little bumps here and there. 

 That's what turbulence is. You're not generally battling for control or bouncing wildly all over the sky, even if you were it would only be in smaller, slower moving aircraft. That's called a ''severe thunderstorm'' and you usually don't fly in those.

[motoadve]

1 hour ago, Mars Exulte said:

 That's what turbulence is. You're not generally battling for control or bouncing wildly all over the sky, even if you were it would only be in smaller, slower moving aircraft. That's called a ''severe thunderstorm'' and you usually don't fly in those.

This video is an example of light turbulence, just a bit of a bumpy ride, very common on a flight,  with turbulence at max in DCS, we don't get this kind of ride, feels smoother.

If proper turbulence has a CPU high demand, then maybe is better how we have it then.

As you see it is not a severe storm, just normal bumps during flight.

 

 

[Ironhand]

DCS’s turbulence is pretty simplistic. The degree of turbulence you get in DCS is a function of wind speed. Set turbulence to max and you will get nothing, if the wind is “0”. You’ll get max turbulence, if the winds are set to max speed. And it’s uniformly spread. It doesn’t come in “bunches” with areas of smoother air between like it would, if the sim were modeling uneven heating of the ground, etc as seen in Motoadve’s video.

[average_pilot]

On 4/18/2023 at 3:04 AM, Mars Exulte said:

 That's what turbulence is. You're not generally battling for control or bouncing wildly all over the sky, even if you were it would only be in smaller, slower moving aircraft. That's called a ''severe thunderstorm'' and you usually don't fly in those.

A ride in a little Cessna in a hot summer day would change your idea about how harsh turbulence can get. It's like driving a car through a track full of rocks you can't dodge. One of those things that are so unpleasant IRL that nobody would enjoy it in a simulation if available except for the novelty. So, in way, a waste of development resources.

Edit: I don't mean tubulence shouldn't be improved in DCS. Air is a very dynamic environment for obvious reaons and is a pity that DCS doesn't manage to convey that in the simulation. But also I suspect it is one of those simulation things that is quite difficult to implement in a way that "feels right" to the end user no matter how accurately is done due to the lack of sensory feedback.

Edited April 21, 2023 by average_pilot

[Dragon1-1]

If you are in a little Cessna, then sure (although, you'd need one heck of a motion platform to truly appreciate how nasty it is). When you're in a 15-ton jet fighter, clean air turbulence is less of an issue. Even a warbird such as the P-51 is four times the weight of a Cessna 172, and will be accordingly less bothered. Not saying it can't throw you around even in a modern jet, but it'll do so much less often and less severely. I'd say, it's not a waste of time at all, and would add some immersion, particularly to warbirds. If nothing else, shakers and haptic pads would at least acknowledge this phenomenon exists, even if we don't get the full "rocky road" experience.

[SharpeXB]

On 4/17/2023 at 9:20 PM, motoadve said:

This video is an example of light turbulence, just a bit of a bumpy ride, very common on a flight,  with turbulence at max in DCS, we don't get this kind of ride, feels smoother.

If proper turbulence has a CPU high demand, then maybe is better how we have it then.

As you see it is not a severe storm, just normal bumps during flight.

 

 

If games behaved this way people would complain that it was broken or start looking if their controls were spiking

what is odd about looking at that on a video screen is you can’t feel it

[Lurker]

On 4/18/2023 at 3:04 AM, Mars Exulte said:

 That's what turbulence is. You're not generally battling for control or bouncing wildly all over the sky, even if you were it would only be in smaller, slower moving aircraft. That's called a ''severe thunderstorm'' and you usually don't fly in those.

Did you miss the part where said he had 4500 of real hours of flight time? I've flown in big jets before and yes even in what appears to be perfectly "clear" air you can get extreme amounts of turbulence. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Lurker

[twistking]

6 hours ago, average_pilot said:

A ride in a little Cessna in a hot summer day would change your idea about how harsh turbulence can get. It's like driving a car through a track full of rocks you can't dodge. One of those things that are so unpleasant IRL that nobody would enjoy it in a simulation if available except for the novelty. So, in way, a waste of development resources.

Edit: I don't mean tubulence shouldn't be improved in DCS. Air is a very dynamic environment for obvious reaons and is a pity that DCS doesn't manage to convey that in the simulation. But also I suspect it is one of those simulation things that is quite difficult to implement in a way that "feels right" to the end user no matter how accurately is done due to the lack of sensory feedback.

 

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Not only can you simulate it in a game, you can also easily make it enjoyable and immersive. Same as battling with a broken aircraft can be fun and exciting in sim, while being less fun in real life.
Driving a car through a field of rocks: Driving sims can easily do that. The important aspect is, that you cannot only convey it through the flight dynamics (or driving mechanics in this case), but you'll have to utilize visual art and sound-design. Without sound-design especially it might just feel as if your controller is jittering, but with proper sound it will immediately communicate the bumbs and vibration. You can add camera effcts and if you want to go the extra mile, you can add cockpit elements visually engaging with the vibration. Can be done, has been done since ages. Could be done in DCS, requires effort though!

Edited April 21, 2023 by twistking

[Dragon1-1]

Not to mention, if you have a shaker and/or haptic pad, you're in for a whole new level of fun.  Of course, that's true regardless, especially in a warbird with a big noisy motor in front, but turbulence could add some extra kick to those.

[Germane]

Am 21.4.2023 um 16:55 schrieb twistking:

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Not only can you simulate it in a game, you can also easily make it enjoyable and immersive. Same as battling with a broken aircraft can be fun and exciting in sim, while being less fun in real life.
Driving a car through a field of rocks: Driving sims can easily do that. The important aspect is, that you cannot only convey it through the flight dynamics (or driving mechanics in this case), but you'll have to utilize visual art and sound-design. Without sound-design especially it might just feel as if your controller is jittering, but with proper sound it will immediately communicate the bumbs and vibration. You can add camera effcts and if you want to go the extra mile, you can add cockpit elements visually engaging with the vibration. Can be done, has been done since ages. Could be done in DCS, requires effort though!

 

+1

[draconus]

+ for more realistic turbulence

+ for thermals

- for faking with non-existing sounds

[Gunfreak]

On 4/21/2023 at 10:11 AM, average_pilot said:

A ride in a little Cessna in a hot summer day would change your idea about how harsh turbulence can get. It's like driving a car through a track full of rocks you can't dodge. One of those things that are so unpleasant IRL that nobody would enjoy it in a simulation if available except for the novelty. So, in way, a waste of development resources.

Edit: I don't mean tubulence shouldn't be improved in DCS. Air is a very dynamic environment for obvious reaons and is a pity that DCS doesn't manage to convey that in the simulation. But also I suspect it is one of those simulation things that is quite difficult to implement in a way that "feels right" to the end user no matter how accurately is done due to the lack of sensory feedback.

 

I flew in a Cessna last summer, a birthday gift from the wife. It was a warm. But mostly windless evening. 

On take off the plane drops what feels like 10 meters(probably more like half a meter) while we're mabye 60 meters above the ground (and far closer to the tree tops)  my fingers gripped the seats and wouldn't let go for 10 minutes. We never had any more drops like that during the hour we flew. But you still felt almost constant bouncing. And this was a very nice calm day according to the pilot. It was by far the most uncomfortable part of the ride(I was fearing the hight, but that didn't affect me)

 

So yes turbulence is definitely a thing. That "other ww2 sim" does it much better(one of the few things it does better)

Edited April 25, 2023 by Gunfreak

[markom]

No matter what a sim does, it will never be able to replicate real-world turbulence experienced in a small aircraft.

Now that you are done reading the bombshell, allow me to elaborate.

Yes, motion may be simple. Fluid dynamics can be predicted, calculated, etc. It's all doable. What will forever be missing is your fear. I.e. this part:

Quote

my fingers gripped the seats and wouldn't let go for 10 minutes.

 

[MadMonty]

Being probably a big exception to flying DCS on a motion platform, I can't stress enough the importance of turbulence.

I also fly Cessnas myself (up to "heavier" Mooneys) and yes, there is rarely a flight that is truly calm. When there is a lot of thermals, as described above, it can be really unpleasant, even for me as a pilot. And yes, with increasing weight the planes naturally become calmer, so I don't have the expectation that an F18 will shake like crazy when there is turbulence.

In DCS I find that @Sedlo, for example, has incorporated quite good wind and turbulence effects in his missions / campaigns. As soon as I take off from Carrier, I notice clear turbulence close to the ground on my plattform. In DCS, unfortunately, this always decreases significantly towards altitude, so that a flight above 500 feet already becomes very calm (except of wake turbulences!).

I believe that DCS actually simulates the turbulence quite well, as it is very real for me on the platform. But the turbulence actually only exists close to the ground and should be experienced equally at all altitudes. Because it is not always the ground turbulence that causes problems, but sometimes also the turbulence at high altitudes.

Maybe someone from ED (@BIGNEWY?) will read this and see if there is a better way to simulate turbulence at different altitudes.

[Dragon1-1]

12 hours ago, markom said:

What will forever be missing is your fear. I.e. this part:

This goes away once you're familiar with it. And in VR, when you're starting out, fear might well happen. I tried to grab a canopy rail to look back on my first flight.  VR is really immersive in that regard, sometimes to the point of being stressful. On some level, you know it's not real, but good luck telling that to your brain...

The "oh crap, I'm falling" feeling is related to felt Gs, so hard to replicate, but other parts of the experience are well within the capabilities of motion platforms and VR. 

[Yo-Yo]

It is not correct to say that turbulence in DCS works only with wind. Yes,  setting the wind speed sets a small amount of turbulence that allows to fly in relatively comfort conditions. But the turbulence itself can be set independently. In this case plane acceleration can jump very severe.  

For example, if the dispersion of g-load is 0.3 and more,  pilots describe it as "very strong", so it's possible in DCS have the same dispersion, especially at lower altitudes, because the size of turbulence (correlation range) increases with altitude that leads to decreasing "bumps".

If you want to encounter turbulence at higher altitudes you need to set wind speed in the layers quite different (speed and/or direction).
These are a sample how DCS turbulence works, and what is correlation length or range. Please keep in mind, that the turbulence in DCS is not a function of time affecting a plane, it is SPATIAL function that means that the planes flying in close formation will be affected by the similar (correlated) vectors (but not identical) depending on the correlation length.
And, by the way, it's not static - hovering helicopter will be bumping as well.
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[markom]

11 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

This goes away once you're familiar with it.

In my experience, the only thing that changes is the severity of the turbulence. I though I was over this fear, and I hit wake turbulence from a landing 737-900 in front of me. My plane got yawed almost 90 degrees. This was as close to actually <profanity>ting my pants I ever got to, and I was 300m from Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999 when it ceased to exist.

[Ironhand]

3 hours ago, Yo-Yo said:

It is not correct to say that turbulence in DCS works only with wind. Yes,  setting the wind speed sets a small amount of turbulence that allows to fly in relatively comfort conditions. But the turbulence itself can be set independently. In this case plane acceleration can jump very severe.  

For example, if the dispersion of g-load is 0.3 and more,  pilots describe it as "very strong", so it's possible in DCS have the same dispersion, especially at lower altitudes, because the size of turbulence (correlation range) increases with altitude that leads to decreasing "bumps".

If you want to encounter turbulence at higher altitudes you need to set wind speed in the layers quite different (speed and/or direction).
These are a sample how DCS turbulence works, and what is correlation length or range. Please keep in mind, that the turbulence in DCS is not a function of time affecting a plane, it is SPATIAL function that means that the planes flying in close formation will be affected by the similar (correlated) vectors (but not identical) depending on the correlation length.
And, by the way, it's not static - hovering helicopter will be bumping as well.
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Excellent! Thank you for the clarification.

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, markom said:

This was as close to actually <profanity>ting my pants I ever got to

To be honest, if I suddenly ended up flying sideways, I'd probably have a similar reaction, even if I only flew a virtual ship in VR. That kind of turbulence is a "jump scare" of sorts that gets you no matter what you're flying, including a desk. You do get very well modeled wake turbulence in DCS, but it's usually not that severe. It probably helps ships we don't often see C-5s and Globemasters fly around because the current models are hideous and they don't have much use in MP. Wakes can get pretty nasty, especially since they can linger a surprising amount of time after the plane has flown away.

[MadMonty]

15 hours ago, Yo-Yo said:

It is not correct to say that turbulence in DCS works only with wind. Yes,  setting the wind speed sets a small amount of turbulence that allows to fly in relatively comfort conditions. But the turbulence itself can be set independently. In this case plane acceleration can jump very severe.  

For example, if the dispersion of g-load is 0.3 and more,  pilots describe it as "very strong", so it's possible in DCS have the same dispersion, especially at lower altitudes, because the size of turbulence (correlation range) increases with altitude that leads to decreasing "bumps".

If you want to encounter turbulence at higher altitudes you need to set wind speed in the layers quite different (speed and/or direction).
These are a sample how DCS turbulence works, and what is correlation length or range. Please keep in mind, that the turbulence in DCS is not a function of time affecting a plane, it is SPATIAL function that means that the planes flying in close formation will be affected by the similar (correlated) vectors (but not identical) depending on the correlation length.
And, by the way, it's not static - hovering helicopter will be bumping as well.

 

Dear @Yo-Yo,

thank you for your detailed answer.

Since my platform provides a very good output of turbulence, I have made a few tests based on your explanations.

I have given strong winds in very different (partly opposite) directions via the possible altitude levels. I set the turbulence value to 25.

Result:
Flying very low, I did not feel any turbulence over level terrain. As soon as I flew into a mountainous terrain, the turbulence increased noticeably just above the ground.
When climbing up to 10,000 feet, I didn't notice any turbulence at all as I crossed different altitudes with different winds; above a few 100 feet, it simply stops.

 

I then selected Summer Thunderstorms in Basic Weather, set Turbulence to the maximum value of 197, and again specified very strong winds (50-60 knots) in opposite directions.

Result:
Flying very low, I now noticed quite strong turbulence over level terrain, which increased again over mountainous terrain (this was then a hell of a ride on the platform).
However, when I leave the immediate vicinity of the ground, the turbulence stops again. I do notice that when crossing the different wind directions (with the same course) my Velocity Vector indicator moves from right to left and thus the aircraft (A10) is exposed to the different winds, but this is a very smooth process without any turbulence.

What we are looking for is gusts / turbulence even across all air layers. It should be possible to set a value for this - e.g. per air layer. The current value for turbulence is obviously only valid for the immediate vicinity of the ground.