SA-342 Gazelle 2023 "FM" Update

[MAXsenna]

I got two setups one with all Virpil and one custom made stick witch got hydronic dampers and can be self centred or choose not to self center. With latter stick with no curve tweaks I control the gazelle much easier than the Huey in hoover and small corrections. I can fly gazelle under a small bridge or in a hangar turn it and fly out again with no atmospheric interference. It also have little ground effect. 
I can do the same with Huey but it got a powerful ground effect and once it out of that it become less cooperative. And in bad weather harder to hoover up high than gazelle. I think gazelle got too little climbrate. But I am not a chopper pilot. I have controlled a 204 in level flight once. And that was more of an airplane experience. 
however after your post I tried gazelle for the first time with my Virpil controllers and indeed it was a different beast. So our different experiences is probably due to different controls. But still I believe climb rate feels too slow. 
I am not saying it is wrong, I just say I liked the fm before we got the lame duck version. The only thing I found problematic about that one was a somehow unstable flight when flying straight and level. It was hard to keep in same altitude. But I find what we have good enough. But somehow I feel it could be better. It lack something

I agree! The FM is probably not totally finished yet. Controllers are important. My old MS FFB2, as I have discovered, has a huge horrendous hardware deadzone I didn't really notice until I added a short extension. Is very noticeable and has to be anticipated. As for ground effect. It's absolutely there. Is it realistic? I don't know, while a was making a video I flew a little too close to some wires, and as you are probably aware, one of the first things to break are the rotor blades. But I did have the speed and I made it halfway back to the FARP, but a hill prevented me! Sure was fun to try though!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Bashibazouk]

I had become used to the old flight model, which certainly didn't feel like a real physical body but could be worked with. When the new(new) FM came out - I'll ignore the weirdness of the in between one - I found it almost impossible to fly. It turns out I'd adjusted my curves etc to a quite extreme shape to deal with the original, and this made the new FM unflyable. When I started again and retuned them I found the FM pretty good. I can throw the Gazelle around almost like I used to be able to now, and although it does feel heavier, it also feels more like a real chunk of metal.

One thing I am finding tricky is the 'sticktion' on the skids. Any crosswind as I take off and the skids will cling like glue, only to release and suddenly throw me into a fatal roll a foot off the ground. This doesn't feel right, with every other chopper FM, once I've taken most of the weight off the wheels or skids, there's barely any friction with the ground.

I have to very very carefully make sure I'm facing into the wind and just the process of turning the chopper to face into the wind will often cause this sticktion to rear it's ugly head.

[ASW]

If it's not difficult, take a screenshot of how you set up the curves on the joystick.

[Hawkeye60]

And go to the saved games location and delete the controls for the Gazelle.

Re assign them.

With new FM's and Controls, best to start fresh.

This should help.

[Bashibazouk]

As requested, here's my roll curve. My pitch curve is bog standard except with a curvature of 20.  This roll curve here is the sort of thing I do whenever I can't get an easy fix with curvature alone. I don't like using saturation for anything except for targeting pods, which seem to require it. I know saturation is recommended by many 'flyers' who are much more experienced than me, but for flight controls, I prefer to be able to grab the maximum in an emergency but have most of my travel be effectively the same as if I'd used saturation to tone down the effect of the control. Maybe it's an OCD thing, I don't like the idea that I don't have access to the full travel as designed by the developers for flight!

I have a low-end HOTAS, the T-16000, TWCS and pedals combo and despite running out of buttons on modules like the Apache (for the CP/G, anyway) I'm quite happy with how much control I can get, with the joystick anyway.  But YMMV, not only with different/better HOTAS gear, but preference and how comfortable with the curves you are. I don't know if it means anything, but I used to be a pro musician back in the 80s and early 90s, so I'm used to quite small movements to get what I want, as if I was playing a musical instrument.

And the T-16000 apparently uses the same Hall Effect sensors on the joystick as the much more expensive Warthog. I do notice the joystick is great, other axes are controlled by a potentiometer with a lever, and those are much less satisfying. The throttle/collective and pedals can get sticky sometimes. But I'm happy, and just as well - Currently I'm between incomes as my business was destroyed by Brexit (events marketing for car shows across Europe, mostly) so I can't afford anything new for a while

This user curve shape, or close to it, was something I worked out for the rudder on the Spitfire and I use it regularly on Rudder controls as my pedals aren't that precise. It took a bit of getting used to for nose wheel steering but now I'm used to it it's no problem.

 

[Blaine Stars]

another month without an update, if it weren't for polychop I wouldn't say it, as always with polychop disappointing, I'm going to leave this module that looks more like a mod there, I'm not going to fly it anymore. If it's like this with the Gazelle, imagine with the Kiowa, it will only remain in a dream.

[Kinkkujuustovoileipä]

13 hours ago, Blaine Stars said:

another month without an update, if it weren't for polychop I wouldn't say it, as always with polychop disappointing, I'm going to leave this module that looks more like a mod there, I'm not going to fly it anymore. If it's like this with the Gazelle, imagine with the Kiowa, it will only remain in a dream.

When I read these types of comments, they often affect me quite strongly. I wonder why it is that, on top of a full time demanding job, a family, and a social life, I put in far too many hours developing modules for DCS.

This is why I left the public Polychop Discord, and why I will now also stop reading the ED forums too. Because I am tired of you, the effect people like you have on my mental wellbeing, the complete lack of understanding you have about the complexities of simulations and software development, the dismissive tone you have of the hard work and the sheer number of hours I have put into the Gazelle and Kiowa this year.

Deep down, I know, and have to reinforce the belief, that I am good at what I do. No one else has brought you a complete FM overhaul; weapons overhaul; new features like the periscope sight and tablet. No one else took the Gazelle and rebuilt it; I did that, and I continue to do it. But when I read your comments, I am just overcome with the feeling that I don't want to anymore. So thanks for that. I will get through it, and continue my hard work on both modules, but it's not for you, or because I care about what you want anymore; I do it for myself, because *I* can. Because it's a badge of my skill, ability, pride, passion for what DCS is, and what these modules can be.

I recently had a chance to reflect on the work we've put into at Polychop over the last year. It's full of positivity and reflection of the great work we've done this year, and what's coming, both for the Kiowa and Gazelle. But this is my other end of year reflection; the balance to all that positivity is that all that work I've put in has a cost, and I pay it in the emotional pain and despondency that people like you thoughtlessly throw out. If the community wants to know what the 'dark side' of DCS development is, well here it is. It's the human cost.

So long.

-- Kinkku

[Hiob]

9 minutes ago, Kinkkujuustovoileipä said:

When I read these types of comments, they often affect me quite strongly. I wonder why it is that, on top of a full time demanding job, a family, and a social life, I put in far too many hours developing modules for DCS.

This is why I left the public Polychop Discord, and why I will now also stop reading the ED forums too. Because I am tired of you, the effect people like you have on my mental wellbeing, the complete lack of understanding you have about the complexities of simulations and software development, the dismissive tone you have of the hard work and the sheer number of hours I have put into the Gazelle and Kiowa this year.

Deep down, I know, and have to reinforce the belief, that I am good at what I do. No one else has brought you a complete FM overhaul; weapons overhaul; new features like the periscope sight and tablet. No one else took the Gazelle and rebuilt it; I did that, and I continue to do it. But when I read your comments, I am just overcome with the feeling that I don't want to anymore. So thanks for that. I will get through it, and continue my hard work on both modules, but it's not for you, or because I care about what you want anymore; I do it for myself, because *I* can. Because it's a badge of my skill, ability, pride, passion for what DCS is, and what these modules can be.

I recently had a chance to reflect on the work we've put into at Polychop over the last year. It's full of positivity and reflection of the great work we've done this year, and what's coming, both for the Kiowa and Gazelle. But this is my other end of year reflection; the balance to all that positivity is that all that work I've put in has a cost, and I pay it in the emotional pain and despondency that people like you thoughtlessly throw out. If the community wants to know what the 'dark side' of DCS development is, well here it is. It's the human cost.

So long.

-- Kinkku

Please, don't let an entitled vocal minority spoil your mood. I think that it is the nature of a public forum like this, that praise is rare and complaints are cheap and plenty. A lot about the look and feel of a module and its FM is a matter of taste, and hoping to please everybody is a futile endeavor. However, while it is legitimate to point out flaws and problems in a constructive and friendly manner, it is equally legitimate as a developer to set priorities and ignore disrepectful and unfriendly people.

Creation is hard. Criticising is easy.

The overhaul and general housekeeping around the Gazelle is very welcomed and much appreciated by many (the silent majority probably) and also - probably an ever ongoing process....

Personally I'm very excited about and looking forward to the Kiowa and will 100% buy it, and so are many others I assume.

 

[grim_reaper68]

The gazelle is a very good helicopter. In fact it's not the easiest but once you've mastered it, it's a real pleasure to fly. Keep in mind that it's not sophisticated as an Apache. It's a lightweight helicopter. With less assistance than the Apache, and very more reactive than the Hind. And as said above, you only hear th minority that is unsatisfied with. Test it with the 14 day trial and make your own opinion. 

[Blaine Stars]

3 hours ago, Kinkkujuustovoileipä said:

Quando leio esses tipos de comentários, eles geralmente me afetam fortemente. Eu me pergunto por que, além de um trabalho exigente em tempo integral, uma família e uma vida social, dediquei muitas horas desenvolvendo módulos para DCS.

É por isso que deixei o Polychop Discord público e agora também vou parar de ler os fóruns de ED. Porque estou cansado de você, do efeito que pessoas como você têm no meu bem-estar mental, da total falta de compreensão que você tem sobre as complexidades das simulações e do desenvolvimento de software, do tom desdenhoso que você dá ao trabalho árduo e ao grande número de horas que eu investimos no Gazelle e no Kiowa este ano.

No fundo, sei, e tenho que reforçar a crença, que sou bom no que faço. Ninguém mais trouxe para você uma revisão completa do FM; revisão de armas; novos recursos, como mira periscópica e tablet. Ninguém mais pegou o Gazelle e o reconstruiu; Eu fiz isso e continuo fazendo. Mas quando leio seus comentários, fico com a sensação de que não quero mais. Então, obrigado por isso. Vou superar isso e continuar meu trabalho duro em ambos os módulos, mas não é para você, ou porque me importo mais com o que você quer; Eu faço isso por mim mesmo, porque *eu* posso. Porque é um símbolo da minha habilidade, capacidade, orgulho, paixão pelo que é o DCS e pelo que esses módulos podem ser.

Recentemente tive a oportunidade de refletir sobre o trabalho que realizamos na Polychop no último ano. Está cheio de positividade e reflexão sobre o excelente trabalho que fizemos este ano e o que está por vir, tanto para o Kiowa quanto para o Gazelle. Mas esta é a minha outra reflexão de final de ano; o saldo de toda essa positividade é que todo o trabalho que fiz tem um custo, e eu pago isso com a dor emocional e o desânimo que pessoas como você descartam impensadamente. Se a comunidade quiser saber qual é o “lado negro” do desenvolvimento do DCS, bem, aqui está. É o custo humano.

Contanto.

--Kinkku

stop victimizing yourself, I never doubted your ability, what I'm doubting is the delivery, I bought this module, I paid for it with my own sweat to have a great simulation, at least that's what was sold to me, I spent years waiting for a good module and you come to victimize yourself, get rid of that face, instead, when someone arrives on discord or on the forum asking about progress, give a concrete answer, why is there still no concrete development plan available for monitoring? I expect more from you and polychop than victimizing yourself, you're upset because someone comes to criticize the delay and lack of information, so I ask, why aren't you also upset about those who paid for years and don't have an expected result. ? tell me? and if you're tired then you should hand the work over to someone braver and who doesn't whine on the forum, I paid for this module and I have the right to complain about what was promised and I'll do it as many times as necessary, now, if you don't like me return the money I paid and we forgot the matter.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Blaine Stars

[Rudel_chw]

35 minutes ago, Blaine Stars said:

I paid for this module and I have the right to complain about what was promised and I'll do it as many times as necessary

 

my, this is the pettiest comment of this year, thank god for the ignore list, as I don't really want to read anymore of your dumb thoughts... 

 

[BIGNEWY]

Folks a reminder for all, treat each other with respect when posting here, and keep the feedback constructive. 

 

[Rudel_chw]

8 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

treat each other with respect

Sorry, but sometimes its impossible to be respectful with unrespectful people. 

[Ramsay]

I'm not connected to Polychop in anyway, however I appreciate they have stuck around (rather than walked away) to maintain and improve the Gazelle.

Comment:

This is my own personal take on the "situation" - 

20 hours ago, Blaine Stars said:

... another month without an update,

Yes, I would have liked a Gazelle update this month.

IMHO everything else you've said is off topic / unhelpful.

Detail:

1 hour ago, Blaine Stars said:

I paid for this module and I have the right to complain about what was promised and I'll do it as many times as necessary

The original Polychop team dissolved several years ago, however a couple of the original dev's kept the "Polychop" name and have dedicated their time to developing an improved flight model, a new module - the Kiowa and to maintaining/improving the existing Gazelle.

After a serious illness/accident ? timelines changed and a couple of new members/volunteers joined the team to "help" - including rebuilding the underlying Gazelle code from scratch, the new flight model, 3D assets and textures, weapons, etc. which we enjoy today.

Remember the people you are complaining to are the ones that stuck around / joined to "fix" the module.

1 hour ago, Blaine Stars said:

... why is there still no concrete development plan available for monitoring?

• The work is done part time (usually along side a full time paid job) and schedules change
• the code may have been written by another coder or no longer work as intended
• it often requires research, development and testing (this isn't a production line with known solutions)
• there are "internal" dev development plans, these aren't available to the public as everything is "subject to change" and depend on technical progress, internal testing, changing prioritisations, etc.

1 hour ago, Blaine Stars said:

... if you don't like me return the money I paid and we forgot the matter.

• With ED you have a free trial to test before purchase.
• For Steam you have 2 weeks / 2 hours play to decide on your purchase.

After that, you've bought the product "as is", outside of exceptional circumstances - that's the end of the matter.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Ramsay

[Blaine Stars]

2 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

que coisa, esse é o comentário mais mesquinho deste ano, graças a Deus pela lista de ignorados, já que eu realmente não quero ler mais seus pensamentos idiotas... 

 

You can think what you want, you don't mean anything to me, I'm within my rights to question something I paid for with my own money, if you don't like it, go to another topic, no one called you here, you inconvenience, until now I've treated the lines with respect and questions asked, if you are not in a position to be polite and express your opinion politely, don't comment, you even needed an ADM to remind you of this... regrettable.

[Blaine Stars]

2 hours ago, Ramsay said:

De qualquer forma, não estou conectado ao Polychop, mas agradeço que eles tenham ficado por aqui (em vez de ir embora) para manter e melhorar o Gazelle.

Comente:

Esta é a minha opinião pessoal sobre a "situação" - 

Sim, eu teria gostado de uma atualização do Gazelle este mês.

IMHO, tudo o mais que você disse está fora do assunto/inútil.

Detalhe:

A equipe original do Polychop foi dissolvida há vários anos, no entanto, alguns dos desenvolvedores originais mantiveram o nome "Polychop" e dedicaram seu tempo ao desenvolvimento de um modelo de voo melhorado, um novo módulo - o Kiowa e à manutenção/melhoramento do Gazelle existente.

Depois de uma doença/acidente grave? os cronogramas mudaram e alguns novos membros/voluntários se juntaram à equipe para "ajudar" - incluindo a reconstrução do código subjacente do Gazelle do zero, o novo modelo de voo, recursos e texturas 3D, armas, etc., dos quais desfrutamos hoje.

Lembre-se de que as pessoas para quem você está reclamando são aquelas que permaneceram/se juntaram para "consertar" o módulo.

• O trabalho é feito em tempo parcial (geralmente junto com um trabalho remunerado em tempo integral) e os horários mudam
• o código pode ter sido escrito por outro programador ou não funcionar mais conforme planejado
• muitas vezes requer pesquisa, desenvolvimento e testes (isso não é uma linha de produção com soluções conhecidas)
• existem planos de desenvolvimento "internos", que não estão disponíveis ao público, pois tudo está "sujeito a alterações" e depende do progresso técnico, testes internos, mudanças de prioridades, etc.

• Com ED você tem uma avaliação gratuita para testar antes de comprar.
• No Steam você tem 2 semanas/2 horas de jogo para decidir sobre sua compra.

Depois disso, você comprou o produto “como está”, fora de circunstâncias excepcionais – esse é o fim da questão.

 

Finally, a more constructive response.

Great, you made it clear what happened to the polychop development team and I'm very sorry about what happened, but today is a different time and until then I hope for new work, I was happy with this year's update and I said that this time I would finish this module and I hope let it end.

About the development plan: why don't you share it and as you update the module you will also update the updated development plan, with this I know that you are working on the module even though there is no monthly update, if you had done that I wouldn't have open this question. Improve the feedback from those who purchased the module, that's all I ask. I like the Gazelle and I wouldn't want to stop flying it, but I need something concrete and sure that development is progressing.

About the free trial: when I bought this module there was no free trial and no 2 week trial on Steam, that is, I bought it right when it came out, I was one of the first.

Again, I really hope you share the development plan and make this process transparent, keep us informed at all times, I think this is a sensible attitude especially for those who waited as long as I did. Do like ED, constantly reporting developments whether on the forum or discord or through videos via Matt Wagner, do something similar.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Blaine Stars

[fapador]

Again, we expect a new flight model update for the Gazelle...

Is this ever gonna end?

It didn't flew good enough then. It doesn't fly good enough even now. As a result I have "shelved" mine untill further notice

Lets hope the next update delivers something good at last.

Sorry in advance if my comment is to be interpreted as "salty"

Edited December 31, 2023 by fapador

[NeedzWD40]

4 hours ago, fapador said:

It didn't flew good enough then. It doesn't fly good enough even now. As a result I have "shelved" mine untill further notice

To me, the current flight model is leaps and bounds better than the old one and the gripes are limited to a few minor issues, ie yaw trim "snaps" instantly regardless of setting. It's not enough to get me to shelve it, though I don't play it as much due to the more limited roles of the airframe. I did run someone new through it recently, someone who struggled with the AH-64, and they absolutely adore the Gazelle's handling over that module. I do believe there are issues to be addressed, but not to the level of throwing my toys out the pram and throwing a tantrum.

[Ramius007]

behavior after taking hits need observation, i remember something weird happened, like reaching speed near 300 at level flight after eating a lot of lead, AP failures under dmg are fine, but what I mentioned is something diffrent. till for my noob skills most limiting factor is lack of WSO in hi threat enviroment when we have to rely on ATGM's

 

Edited January 2 by Ramius007

[McVittees]

Decided to give Gazelle a go last night via free trial. Mapped axis, trim and view zoon then flew around Normandy for twenty minutes. Sold. Bought the module this morning.  Seemed straight forward enough to fly (compared to Apache, Huey and Hind) and I love the forward visibility.  

Edited January 3 by McVittees

[fapador]

On 1/1/2024 at 12:23 AM, NeedzWD40 said:

To me, the current flight model is leaps and bounds better than the old one and the gripes are limited to a few minor issues, ie yaw trim "snaps" instantly regardless of setting. It's not enough to get me to shelve it, though I don't play it as much due to the more limited roles of the airframe. I did run someone new through it recently, someone who struggled with the AH-64, and they absolutely adore the Gazelle's handling over that module. I do believe there are issues to be addressed, but not to the level of throwing my toys out the pram and throwing a tantrum.

I am sorry, but I dont have the luxury to invest(any more) time on modules that are still pending significant fixes, especially in the FM area .   

I also dont have time to reply to at least implicative comments  if not offensive....

 Good for you if you are satisfied with the current state of the module.

It doesnt mean its the same for everyone else and remember that everyone is free to have their own opinion.

[grim_reaper68]

You're right fapador, but most time you only hear the people who are unsatisfied, and the satisfied are silent. Imagine you're developing a module and read only negative about it. Would you enjoy continue to work on it? I don't think. There are in fact things that need to be worked out, but there is a lot of progress. It's good to be encouraged sometimes.   

[LuseKofte]

I currently fly the Gazelle Mad campaign. 
If you spawn in the sand it is like the heli is glued to the ground. If you correct once the chopper lift off you suddenly get stick authority. Anyone else experience it. No such problem on Tarmac or ship

[MAXsenna]

I currently fly the Gazelle Mad campaign. 
If you spawn in the sand it is like the heli is glued to the ground. If you correct once the chopper lift off you suddenly get stick authority. Anyone else experience it. No such problem on Tarmac or ship

Yes, drove me nuts! Not sure if it's map related. Don't try to take off in a hover. Trim the cyclic forward, apply pedals to the right. Yank the collective and off you go.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[grim_reaper68]

Just made a test flight on the Gulf map in different location, I never got stuck on the ground. Can you give me the coordinates where you took off so I can test it?