reported P-47 incorrect gun count

[KetchupWarthog]

Can someone help confirm or inform me whether the P-47's ammunition load is correct? I noticed the P-47's firing time seem abit shorter than my experience in other games, so I did a test in singleplayer. The guns (for all 3 variants) last around ~23 seconds with Tacview counting only 2,400 rounds fired instead of the advertised 3,400 rounds. I've attached the tacviews here, but haven't gone round to recording a trackfile (note that Tacview makes no distinction between the variants and label them as "P-47D"). I also used two different belts of the regular '44 (API_M8 in Tacview) and the '44 strafing (APIT_M20).

 

The manual states 425 rounds per gun and a fire rate of 800-900 rpm, which should have between 28-32 seconds total firing time. I suspect there was an error where they mistyped 3 as 2 and causes the missing 1,000 rounds. The fire rate appears to be correct at 800rpm (2400/8 = 300 rounds per gun, 300*60/800 = 22.5 seconds per gun). I would also rule out gun jamming from overheating (if it was even modelled) as it is coincidental for all 8 guns to stop firing at the exact same time and all 3 recording tests counted exactly 2,400 rounds fired.

Tacview-20230910-001352-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20230910-001249-DCS.zip.acmi Tacview-20230910-001146-DCS.zip.acmi

[razo+r]

Indeed, 300 rounds per gun are in the files.

Count of 300 for all 8 guns.

[KetchupWarthog]

Good to know, thanks for digging into the game files. I'll open a bug report, can you help to post your finding there? I'll post this image in the report submission for the time being

[Slippa]

Well spotted.
 

1,000 rounds, not to be sniffed at.

[KetchupWarthog]

P-47 should have 3,400 rounds total, but currently the game only has 2,400 rounds (300 per gun). English manual pg. 46 states 425 rounds per gun with fire rate of 800-890 rpm which should have a firing time of 29-32 seconds, but current it fires for only ~22 seconds. This affects all three variants (D-30 early, D-30, D-40) although only the D-40 is used for the attached report.

Attached files contain the following:

1. P-47D-40 gun count 44 strafing.trk - track file of singleplayer mission on Caucasus
2. Tacview-20230921-172412-DCS-P-47D-40 gun count 44 strafing.zip - Tacview file of said mission
3. Screen_230921_172456.jpg - in-game debriefing
4. dcs.log - per requirement for bug report

Of note are items #2 and #3, with the Tacview showing exactly 2,400 rounds were fired while the image shows debriefing of firing stops after 22 seconds.

Steps to reproduce (formality's sake):

1. Create singleplayer mission with any P-47. In-air or ground start doesn't matter
2. Fly to altitude to prevent ground safety
3. Hold fire button until empty. Note down duration of firing

P-47D-40 gun count 44 strafing.trk Tacview-20230921-172412-DCS-P-47D-40 gun count 44 strafing.zip.acmi dcs.log

@razo+r made a post in the discussion thread of the game file, which shows the "count = 300," confirming that there is only 300 rounds per gun. Image reattached below, credits to razo+r

[Art-J]

@KetchupWarthogMind you, according to real manuals from B- to N- variant, 425 rounds per gun was "maximum" load, while "desirable" load was listed as 200, 267 or 300 depending on gun configuration (6 or 8 ) and on... manual you choose to follow. I guess ED decided to choose 300 as best compromise option.

Still, logic suggests that ammo bar in the editor set at 100% should yield max physically possible amount, so 425 I'd say.

[razo+r]

4 minutes ago, Art-J said:

Still, logic suggests that ammo bar in the editor set at 100% should yield max physically possible amount, so 425 I'd say.

I'd say that's a good option. Maybe even make it the same like they handle fuel. 300 rounds being the default %, while 100% goes to 425 like you say.

@NineLine

Edited September 21, 2023 by razo+r

[Gunfreak]

Has this been registered with ED?

[Stackup]

6 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

Has this been registered with ED?

Doubt it since it isn't tagged as reported and no dev responses.  Seems to happen quite frequently with some of these bugs unfortunately...

[PeevishMonkey]

В 21.09.2023 в 17:52, KetchupWarthog сказал:

P-47 should have 3,400 rounds total, but currently the game only has 2,400 rounds (300 per gun)

In all games before DCS it was option for P-47 ammo load like "increased ammunition", along with bombs and/or rockets.

That is why 100% with 300 rounds - is OK, but new load option - it would be interesting.

Спойлер

Words from parallel Universe: "It is possible to ... increase the ammo load to 425 rounds per gun"

 

[NineLine]

I'll take a look soon guys, but please try and be patient, this is not the only forum section I am dealing with. Thanks. 

[grafspee]

15 hours ago, NineLine said:

I'll take a look soon guys, but please try and be patient, this is not the only forum section I am dealing with. Thanks. 

I can only imagine how much text and other stuff you have to go through.

[Art-J]

A bit of a New Year bump for this one, because Nineline seems to be taking a look across the -47 forum section .

[Cool-Hand]

Here another bump, would love to get the Jug looked at by the devs again.

[NineLine]

Sorry for the wait and thanks for the patience. I am just reading up on the different round loadouts vs. other ordinances, and trying to determine if there are limits based on this. 

It might be nice to have 'notches' on the ammo slider to choose specific loadouts, although I am sure the weight will show when you have too much. I will discuss this with the team and see what they say. 

[Art-J]

^ I presume players are usually OK with current 300 per gun as a weight and performance compromise suitable for various types of sorties, but technically, if ammo boxes in wings could be filled up o 425, we should be able to do so for, let's say, CAS missions every now and then.

Granted, MTOW limit would indeed be an important factor, but that's what the sliders in loadout options are for.

[cazub]

is that supply count something i can modify myself? i didn't see that in the weapons.lua

[KetchupWarthog]

Sorry to bump up an old thread, do we have any update to this since? If it was decided to make no change and keep the ammo as-is then we can close this thread.

On 1/18/2024 at 4:22 AM, NineLine said:

Sorry for the wait and thanks for the patience. I am just reading up on the different round loadouts vs. other ordinances, and trying to determine if there are limits based on this. 

It might be nice to have 'notches' on the ammo slider to choose specific loadouts, although I am sure the weight will show when you have too much. I will discuss this with the team and see what they say. 

 

[Cool-Hand]

Would be great to get the extra like was said above for ground attack missions specifically. That and maybe add a tracerless belt that has the tracers to warn that you are near the end of the belt like was done during the war.

[Akula67]

+1

The 425 rounds per gun/3400 rounds total are even mentioned on both the module shop page and its flight manual!

So I think they really should raise the max ammo to 425 per gun, with the option to reduce it for A/A work.

[TK-421]

Is this still an issue or has it been fixed? Sorry to dig up an old thread but I was curious 

[KetchupWarthog]

1 hour ago, TK-421 said:

Is this still an issue or has it been fixed? Sorry to dig up an old thread but I was curious 

I made a bug report ages ago, which was seen by NineLine. However there has been zero update to this nor any conclusion whether this was bug or as intended. Given that it's been almost two years it's frustrating, but also quite typical with how slow things are here.

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/334102-p-47-incorrect-gun-count/#comment-5368484

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged. 

I will ask Nineline about this when he is active. 

thanks 

[NineLine]

I haven't heard anything new on this; it's been a while, and I will try refreshing it internally. Thanks all.

[NineLine]

Ok, just refreshed myself on the discussion. 

The issue is that 450 would add enough weight to the aircraft to impact performance. 300 was the ideal loadout and this is why it was used.

Because of how DCS displays ammo loads, most people would jump in, set it to 100% and then wonder why their aircraft flies like crap (damn this FM sucks). So we want to first change how ammo loads are displayed in the weapons load screens. That said not much has progressed on this right now, so 300, being the ideal loadout for now, is what we have.