now in early access DCS: CH-47F Pre-purchase

[inexus]

11 hours ago, Hotdognz said:

Well after seeing the EA list im holding off and will wait to see how the guys on our server find it using it with CTLD (if that works with it), lots of things missing in EA I would have considered should be there at 1st release.

 

Same. I don't know if ED care but we, their customers, have called it out repeatedly. There are loads of people calling out how barebone the helo is at launch and a fact is that we have seen how long it can take to get these features delivered... 

We are still waiting for the Apache FM to be corrected. I love that helo but man I've been waiting for a long time. 

Edited June 22, 2024 by inexus

[Schmidtfire]

No DAFCS, NVG's, HUD, MWS or Autopilot...

Those things should really be in the product on Day 1. Ideally with an improved transport & logistics
system so there is some kind of gameplay available for it.      

I might be wrong, but this seems like a very rushed (bare minimum) EA release.

[Rilence]

 Well, if basic features aren't going to be there, I'm gonna assume troop transportation isn't going to be much of a thing either, if it's even there at all. I'll spare the devs any questions on that then. Bummer.

[lee1hy]

5 hours ago, Schmidtfire said:

No DAFCS, NVG's, HUD, MWS or Autopilot...

Those things should really be in the product on Day 1. Ideally with an improved transport & logistics
system so there is some kind of gameplay available for it.      

I might be wrong, but this seems like a very rushed (bare minimum) EA release.

tin can helicopter

[KoN]

Totally stopped buying any products from DCS . Tired of waiting for fixes . 

[Chinooklad]

Eagle Dynamics, with all due respect, you need to come to your senses and delay this before you forever kill any desire within the community to either buy or fly this helicopter. First impressions do matter. Surely you are fully aware how barebones and underwhelming your feature list looks like?

No NVGs on launch, no multi crew? Not even a crew chief station? You absolutely have to delay this by as much as a year. You might have your own reasons to rush it out of the window as you clearly are, but it is not worth it in the long run. Please, delay this before it becomes another mess you'll come to find in your lap. Compensate those who pre purchased the Chinook with either store credit or perhaps the Afghan module and appologise for delaying it, but at least we'll know that we'll get a much more complete product when it's ready. The community will understand and even respect that. 

[admiki]

ED needs money. That's all that there is to this module launch.

[Silver_Dragon]

2 minutes ago, admiki said:

ED needs money. That's all that there is to this module launch.

About?

[Cab]

I really don’t understand the issue here. If you don’t like it in this EA state, don’t buy it. If you’ve already bought it, just don’t install it until it meets your standards. 

[Johnny Dioxin]

Delay it after so many have paid for it? When so many have complained so much about how long products take to get released - as recently as the F-4E - after they have paid for it?

I bought it, even though I don't like glass cockpits. Most of the "unannounced" functions people mention here as a reason for not buying it are not a reason to not buy the helicopter. Maybe they will come, maybe they won't. If you don't like it, don't buy it - or don't buy it until it's developed to your satisfaction.

Why all the endless whinging over an unreleased product is beyond me. Sign of the times, I suppose - especially here on ED forums, the apparent whinge central of the flight sim world. The excuse "because we're passionate about flight simming" is pathetic. If you want to fly it on release, buy it - if you don't, then go away and fly something else or buy it later. Endless complaining not required.

[admiki]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Dioxin said:

Delay it after so many have paid for it? When so many have complained so much about how long products take to get released - as recently as the F-4E - after they have paid for it?

I bought it, even though I don't like glass cockpits. Most of the "unannounced" functions people mention here as a reason for not buying it are not a reason to not buy the helicopter. Maybe they will come, maybe they won't. If you don't like it, don't buy it - or don't buy it until it's developed to your satisfaction.

Why all the endless whinging over an unreleased product is beyond me. Sign of the times, I suppose - especially here on ED forums, the apparent whinge central of the flight sim world. The excuse "because we're passionate about flight simming" is pathetic. If you want to fly it on release, buy it - if you don't, then go away and fly something else or buy it later. Endless complaining not required.

It's not that simple. And it's not really about this module itself.

It's about ED's push to erode of what we find acceptable product level. 

You are correct in your position that if we don't like something we should not buy it until we are happy.

Problem with that is, that it might cause ED's cashflow to suffer, which in turn leads to further degradation of the environment. As we have witnessed with EDvsRB dispute. Other point to support this is, if you think about it, what do we have in DCS that is not in EA state? How many matured modules we can fly in DCS right now? And then try to figure out how much money would be out of ED's pockets if we all waited for those EA modules to mature. And how DCS World would be affected. I don't believe ED could survive that. They need constant cashflow.

And let's not even go into a discussion of how many of those mature products are bugged as hell. But further development/refinement is all but stopped.

I'll be the first to admit that I like flying in DCS and for that exact reason I don't want to see it threatened by what a lot of us see as a flawed business logic. And some of us are actually capable of running our own businesses, so it's not just a noise in the wind.

23 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

About?

I'm not sure what are you asking here? ED needs cashflow and they are willing to endure backlash about barebones products they are pushing out in order to get said cashflow.

 

[Chinooklad]

13 minutes ago, Johnny Dioxin said:

Delay it after so many have paid for it? When so many have complained so much about how long products take to get released - as recently as the F-4E - after they have paid for it?

I bought it, even though I don't like glass cockpits. Most of the "unannounced" functions people mention here as a reason for not buying it are not a reason to not buy the helicopter. Maybe they will come, maybe they won't. If you don't like it, don't buy it - or don't buy it until it's developed to your satisfaction.

Why all the endless whinging over an unreleased product is beyond me. Sign of the times, I suppose - especially here on ED forums, the apparent whinge central of the flight sim world. The excuse "because we're passionate about flight simming" is pathetic. If you want to fly it on release, buy it - if you don't, then go away and fly something else or buy it later. Endless complaining not required.

CH47 was or still is a platform that is meant to pivot DCS into the logistical aspect of combat operations. Surely this can't be an acceptable first impression or amount of effort made to make it stick? With zero raw Chinook footage with just two weeks to go (With the new delay), it's obvious that they are not confident enough to show it off in the slightest. Why should that inspire any confidence in us? I can not comprehend how releasing a module into early acess that can't even feasibly operate during both Day and Night is an okay thing to do. Everyone will benefit from having a more complete module on Day 1, surely on that you can agree?

[Northstar98]

On 6/22/2024 at 10:23 AM, Cab said:

I really don’t understand the issue here.

You don't understand why people might have concerns about the state of EA releases going backwards, to the point that basic, fundamental features like force trim, which has always been available on initial release for every other previous helicopter, is an issue?

On 6/22/2024 at 10:23 AM, Cab said:

If you don’t like it in this EA state, don’t buy it.

I have decided not to buy the CH-47F, the problem with its EA release state still exists, so this mindset doesn't actually solve the problem, it just no longer affects me personally.

But here's the thing, I'm not selfish to the point where I can only advocate or care about concerns if they affect me directly.

On 6/22/2024 at 10:24 AM, Johnny Dioxin said:

Most of the "unannounced" functions people mention here as a reason for not buying it are not a reason to not buy the helicopter.

For you maybe, but you don't get to decide that for anyone else.

Personally, I find the lack of a logistics component for a helicopter dedicated to logistics to be my #1 reason not to purchase it. Right now we can transport troops in a functional, albeit janky way and while we can slingload, we cannot slingload functional units, nor does slingloading actually accomplish anything practical in the core game without resorting to user scripts or fudging it with triggers.

On 6/22/2024 at 10:24 AM, Johnny Dioxin said:

If you don't like it, don't buy it - or don't buy it until it's developed to your satisfaction.

See slightly further up in this comment in my reply to Cab.

Me not purchasing the module doesn't actually solve any of the issues here, it just means I'm not personally being directly affected by them.

On 6/22/2024 at 10:24 AM, Johnny Dioxin said:

Why all the endless whinging over an unreleased product is beyond me. Sign of the times, I suppose - especially here on ED forums, the apparent whinge central of the flight sim world. The excuse "because we're passionate about flight simming" is pathetic. If you want to fly it on release, buy it - if you don't, then go away and fly something else or buy it later. Endless complaining not required.

What utter drivel.

It's as if you think that a more completed EA release and core functionality that better supports the product is somehow a bad thing, that only people who "endlessly whinge" care about - which is just beyond baffling.

Frankly it's stuff like this that convinces me that people like you are opposed to the game ever improving. Just chalk everything up to endless whinging and bingo, everything is perfect, nobody should ever improve anything and if things go backwards who cares? If anybody doesn’t accept this, they should go away.

That or I guess it's a sign of the times where people just cannot deal with or respond positively to anything critical so their only recourse is to try to invalidate it by trying to insult and make up the motivations of people making them. I might be inclined to call that "pathetic" - it's certainly the easier thing to do compared to actually listening to what's being said and taking steps to improve and move forward.

If people don't air their greivances or otherwise act like they don't care about shortcomings, how can ED be expected to improve upon them or care about them either?

Edited June 24, 2024 by Northstar98
grammar

[LuseKofte]

50 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

concerns

Do you know what level of importance needed to call things concern?

this is not a matter of concern, it is people looking for something to make a drama. It is not a concern. 
I will look closely on what I get when I get it. 
I will report all shortcomings not explained to me in beforehand. And I will silently consider if I buy another pre buy if it is in a state I can’t enjoy it. 
Then I place my concerns on pretty much a million problems in real world if not more. I use this sim to get away from that. I have no concerns for a game

Edited June 22, 2024 by LuseKofte

[BIGNEWY]

Folks we do understand those of you who have concerns. We have shared our plans for early access and beyond, and have let you know the change in the patch date to accommodate us with a little more time. 

If early access is not something you like or enjoy PLEASE WAIT, the last thing we want is people using early access and expecting a finished product. Early access takes time but the team is working very hard currently. With your feedback and bug reports during early access it helps create a better module and we couldn't do it without your assistance. 

Again please remember if you have pre-ordered you have a nice discount and get to participate in the early access development of the CH-47F, it is going to be a lot of fun for those of you who understand this process. 

thank you and have a great weekend.  

 

----------------

 

please stay on topic in this thread, off topic posts will be removed

 

 

[av8orDave]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

Folks we do understand those of you who have concerns. We have shared our plans for early access and beyond, and have let you know the change in the patch date to accommodate us with a little more time. 

If early access is not something you like or enjoy PLEASE WAIT, the last thing we want is people using early access and expecting a finished product. Early access takes time but the team is working very hard currently. With your feedback and bug reports during early access it helps create a better module and we couldn't do it without your assistance. 

Again please remember if you have pre-ordered you have a nice discount and get to participate in the early access development of the CH-47F, it is going to be a lot of fun for those of you who understand this process. 

thank you and have a great weekend.  

 

----------------

 

please stay on topic in this thread, off topic posts will be removed

 

 

Thanks for the response. For those of us considering pre-purchase, can you elaborate on what “basic trim” entails and whether force trim in the traditional sense is what will actually be missing at initial release?

[HMSSURP]

As a former Hooker I have to ask, what is force trim?  I only flew chinooks for about 13 years with about 2000 hours but I really do not remember a force trim anything.  The Ch-47F had a trim switch which used Mag Brakes  in the flight control closet to hold the flight controls in a specific position you set with mag brakes.  The trim switch just "inched" the stick forward and back or left and right using drive motors inside these Mag Brakes.  A series of Extensible Link Actuators (ELAs), springs, Control Position Transducers (CPTs) and a DASH Actuator helped maintian a general attitude and airspeed without needing to much attention.  Additionally, the system was tied into the AFCS to allow for heading hold.  You turned the heading bug, the aircraft turned to that heading.

The thrust had something similiar but it was called a CCDA (Cockpit Control Driver Actuator).  It did pretty much the exact same thing as the Mag Brakes except it was also tied into the Altitude Hold feature and would move the thrust channel of the flight controls to maintain either baro or radar altitude depending on which was selected. 

Anyways, very simple stuff that the CH-47D before it had and provided for a VERY stable platform without the need of to much pilot attention.

What you are probably hearing that may not be available with the EA release is the Flight Director (FD).  In the CH-47F, you can literally take a PIMCA card out to the aircraft, load a route you programed on a laptop, pick the aircraft up to a 10 foot hover, engage flight director and the aircraft will fly the entire route controlling heading, airspeed, altitude, without the pilot ever touching the controls and then come to a 10 ft hover within 3 meters of your plotted land point.  All you have to do is land.  This feature also provides features like hover hold, hover beep (alows you to beep your hover positon fwd, back, left, right by a foot at at time with trim switch), hover altitude beep (allows you to beep the altitude up or down about a foot at at time at a hover).  It is very awesome and we older pilots hated it.  First, because we saw all the young pilots loose their control touches and stop being able to do things like pick up a load without it and second because it made for some pretty debatable tactical practices that I won't get into.  Don't get me wrong, it was nice to be able to fly a cross country flight eating my lunch while the aircraft did all the work and they are certainly impressive toys to have but it is not real flying.  We even called it system management, not piloting.  If that is what is missing from the EA release, trust me, you will survive.  You will still get a chance to feel the impressive nature of a Chinook without it.

Now, I will say this, the one bummer thing about the FD not being up, if that is the case, is you will miss the very sexy voice of the Chinook.  I had a stick buddy through the CH-47D to CH-47F transition course who used to like to turn it on and off just so he could hear her voice!  

[Hatman335]

1 hour ago, HMSSURP said:

As a former Hooker I have to ask, what is force trim?

I'm just speculating, but I think they are referring to the functions of the 'CD rel' switch. As for not being available in EA, they said that hold modes aren't going to make it in either, so the DAFCS itself will be limited.

[Kang]

10 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

If people don't air their greivances or otherwise act like they don't care about shortcomings, how can ED be expected to improve upon them or care about it either?

 

I fully agree with several of your points.
Sure, individually one can just not buy the product and move on, but the fact remains that, perhaps, ED would in fact like to know why one doesn't.

[LuseKofte]

1 hour ago, HMSSURP said:

As a former Hooker I have to ask, what is force trim?  I only flew chinooks for about 13 years with about 2000 hours

This you need to say louder

people is getting hysterical over lack of something not supposed to be there

[Hatman335]

18 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

people is getting hysterical over lack of something not supposed to be there

Not calling it 'force trim' and it not existing are two entirely different things.

[Beirut]

45 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

This you need to say louder

people is getting hysterical over lack of something not supposed to be there

 

Getting hysterical is what we do. 

 

I want my Chinook. 

[Northstar98]

10 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

Do you know what level of importance needed to call things concern?

?

I don't remember there being a threshold on when people get to call a concern a concern. Last I checked, a minor concern is still a concern, a concern you personally don't care about is still a concern.

10 hours ago, LuseKofte said:

this is not a matter of concern, it is people looking for something to make a drama. It is not a concern.

No, it just isn't a concern for you. Just because you don't care about it, doesn't mean anybody who does must automatically be some troll looking to stir drama.

And thank you for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about, you can't engage with criticism honestly so the only thing you're left with is to just make up the motivations of the people making it in order to discredit them.

[Beirut]

Just now, Northstar98 said:

?

I don't remember there being a threshold on when people get to call a concern a concern. Last I checked, a minor concern is still a concern, a concern you personally don't care about is still a concern.

No, it just isn't a concern for you. Just because you don't care about it, doesn't mean anybody who does must automatically be some troll looking to stir drama.

And thank you for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about, you can't engage with criticism honestly so the only thing you're left with is to just make up the motivations of the people making it in order to discredit them.

 

Luse is actually a very nice guy. I know him from other forums and it's possible English is not his first language. 

 

Show a little patience. 

[LuseKofte]

30 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

No, it just isn't a concern for you. Just because you don't care about it

Oh I care. But I am fed up about this pre hysterical issues you guys seems to come up with before handed a module. 
Why not fly it before you judge? Why pre buy in the first place?
I want my hand in this module no matter its shortcomings. You seem to regret your purchase, why not just try to get a refund?
Eventually it will be up to your standards. 

Edit: gramma seem to be a big issue. So I corrected something

Edited June 22, 2024 by LuseKofte