DCS: CH-47F FAQ Discussion

[NineLine]

FAQ Edit: Added Steam Pre-order answer. 

Will there be a pre-order on Steam?
Currently no, we will continue to try working with Steam to make something happen, but right now this product doesn't meet Steam's pre-order requirements.

[MorgothNL]

Question:
Aside from certain features, I think many of us assume that the following will be part of the EA. Can you confirm that these are 'finalized' (of course with tweaks possible in the future):
- Flight Model (VRS, Ground effect, general flight model etc etc)
- Damage Model (How does it compare to the invincible Apache DM?)
- All cockpit switches
- Pilot/crew models?
- AI gunners ROA/Burst options as with Huey/HIP/Hind
- Flight envelope limitations (speed, G, blade stall etc)
- System limitations (engines mostly)

Are any of those not included in the EA? And/or are any of those in a early access state?
 

Edited April 24 by MorgothNL

[Harlikwin]

17 minutes ago, NineLine said:

FAQ Edit: Added Steam Pre-order answer. 

Will there be a pre-order on Steam?
Currently no, we will continue to try working with Steam to make something happen, but right now this product doesn't meet Steam's pre-order requirements.

So what exactly are Steams pre-order requirements? Have they changed since other pre-orders there? IIRC the Viper and others were on steam. 

Edited April 24 by Harlikwin

[Jester986]

39 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Dear all, I have cleaned up the thread some. Please read the FAQ for all the answers we have now.

Please leave your wants and desires for the CH-47F

Please do not use this thread to bring up issues with other modules or any other drama going on right now. I don't want to start handing out warnings, this thread was meant to help inform what we know and see what all of you expect to do and want from the CH-47F. If we can't control ourselves here I will just close it I thought this would be helpful for everyone to express what you want from a CH-47 in DCS. 

Excellent flight model and systems. Good but not frame rate murdering textures. Logistics ops that impact the battle. Fat cow. Visible crew and cargo. Some generic cargoes are fine but variation based on whether it’s food ammo tents comms gear etc would be nice. Paratroopers. Fast Ropers would be a stretch goal. Load and unloading animations. Oh the crew chief actually has some buttons to press in the back. It would be nice if those work. I actually hate long lining in dcs because I do it in real life and it doesn’t translate well. 
 

oh this is  super high priority for me. Weight and balance and performance planning. This is such a critical part of being a pilot I can’t believe it’s not in the game yet. We need a way to calculate fuel burn and at least IGE and OGE hover. 

Edited April 24 by Jester986

[AdrianL]

5 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

Have they changed since other pre-orders there

See https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/prepurchase

[Harlikwin]

7 minutes ago, AdrianL said:

See https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/prepurchase

I see. Seems like Steam just don't really want to do pre-orders there. Well I guess thats a change on their end. 

[Hawkeye_UK]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

Guys keep the focus on the CH-47, some are trying to drag it off into another direction, I will only mention that 3 years ago we didn't have the extra performance we do now with MT as well we have Vulcan coming that is going to help new game features such as things coming with the Supercarrier, but again, this thread and FAQ is about the CH-47, please stick with that. If you do not want to buy it right now, then you don't have to but you don't need to share that here, it's OT. Thanks.

Yes, we will go through and make sure all questions, requests and wants are passed to the Producer on the CH-47, we have already been doing this 100% Thanks. The issue just becomes when people mess up the thread with OT stuff. Thanks!

 

Nineline, to be clear we still don't have MT for server's - so are we saying logistics is going to be single player only.

Once again we get back to the core not being ready?

[dsc106]

Hi, can you please be more specific, what precisely is the criteria failing to be met by Steam pre orders? It has never been a problem in the past. What, exactly, changed?

This is a big deal as it is impacting now the Phantom, Afghanistan, and finally the Chinook. It makes us loyal Steam customers feel like 2nd rate citizens.

In a constructive request, barring any other solution, can you offer the 30% Pre Order pricing on Steam on the day of launch for the first 24 hours? Or get the pre order live several days before it officially announces?

 

[Jester986]

Just now, dsc106 said:

Hi, can you please be more specific, what precisely is the criteria failing to be met by Steam pre orders? It has never been a problem in the past. What, exactly, changed?

This is a big deal as it is impacting now the Phantom, Afghanistan, and finally the Chinook. It makes us loyal Steam customers feel like 2nd rate citizens.

In a constructive request, barring any other solution, can you offer the 30% Pre Order pricing on Steam on the day of launch for the first 24 hours? Or get the pre order live several days before it officially announces?

 

You should migrate to standalone. I know steam is convenient but ED would be in a better place if they weren’t paying steam their cut. There’s no benefit to being on steam other than all your games are in one spot. And I don’t see the advantage of that when I still launch DCS with a desktop icon. 

[mono]

19 minutes ago, Jester986 said:

You should migrate to standalone. I know steam is convenient but ED would be in a better place if they weren’t paying steam their cut. There’s no benefit to being on steam other than all your games are in one spot. And I don’t see the advantage of that when I still launch DCS with a desktop icon. 

Steam gives you the option to refund a purchase within a set amount of playing time if you were to say, hypothetically, purchase it and quickly realize it did not have the features you thought it would. That is another advantage. (DISCLOSURE: Standalone customer)

[MysteriousHonza]

22 minutes ago, Jester986 said:

You should migrate to standalone. I know steam is convenient but ED would be in a better place if they weren’t paying steam their cut. There’s no benefit to being on steam other than all your games are in one spot. And I don’t see the advantage of that when I still launch DCS with a desktop icon. 

For one, ability to refund when something happends, like launch of F16 for example. Just yeet it back at them for unfinished abomination. 
Other one is, better customer protection and possibility of 3rd party being actually paid considering they are named under the product. 
Considering they even DARE to take money from preorders while stating this (most likely breaches some sort of EU consumer laws considering they are NOT telling you what you are buying, its in fact gambling). Thanks god there are no preorders. 
null

[TLTeo]

Just a few thoughts:

First, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding between what the community is saying, and what ED is hearing. Nobody is questioning the quality of DCS flight models, or the implementation of (most) systems, or what have you. I'm sure all those things will be amazing in the Chinhook. What many in the community are trying to say is that our enjoyment of those systems is inextricably tied to the quality of the environment they are put in. You can imagine a sim with even more numerous and realistic modules than DCS, amazing weather and ATC, but no combat - that environment would immediately not be of interest to many of us, despite the presence of better modules. You can not give feedback on a module without talking about the environment it's flown in.

Second, I think the reasoning of "if EA is not for you then don't buy the module" is very flawed. The entirety of DCS is in EA in some way or form, to the point where we have given up the pretense of having a Stable and Beta branch, it's just Beta now. What you are essentially telling many of us when you say "EA may not be for you and that's fine" is really "our product is not for you", which I think is very silly given ED has a near monopoly on the high fidelity combat sim market.

Finally, and this is the most frustrating thing to say, I feel like the misunderstanding or breakdown between the community and ED is so deep that I no longer believe giving feedback will actually improve the product. I'm writing this post because I need to get some frustration off my chest, not because I think it will in any way help DCS achieve some of its potential.

edit: I also want to add, I realize the points I made are not something Nineline or Bignewey are expected to address. I wish I felt like they were being relayed to whoever makes decisions at ED though.

Edited April 24 by TLTeo

[Vortexstate]

12 hours ago, Benno said:

Will we see updated infantry animations when they are entering and exiting the aircraft?

Will we have physical models of infantry/vehicles/cargo in the rear, as currently with CTLD we cannot see infantry in the back of the Huey as an example.

Will we have some sort of crew chief/flight engineer (not sure on correct term) giving us call outs and such for landings? Will this be a Multi Crew slot eventually?

Logistics and a crew chief/flight engineer are the two most NEEDED things in the Chinook. You've got 100ish feet behind you that you can't see at all, so having peak communicant is needed.

[admiki]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

Guys keep the focus on the CH-47, some are trying to drag it off into another direction, I will only mention that 3 years ago we didn't have the extra performance we do now with MT as well we have Vulcan coming that is going to help new game features such as things coming with the Supercarrier, but again, this thread and FAQ is about the CH-47, please stick with that. If you do not want to buy it right now, then you don't have to but you don't need to share that here, it's OT. Thanks.

I respectfully disagree. It seems ED has somewhat lost its course regarding customer relations. While it is true that EA never had any definite deadline, your business model seems to steer towards pumping out new modules/terrains to attract money on at the expense of finishing development of existing modules. Hence years of EA status.

I doubt every single module has its own exclusive team or you would be one of the biggest game developers in the world. That then means you are prioritizing workload. We, as customers, feel you are doing it wrong. If anything, I would be thankful that we are voicing our grievances before we start voting with our wallets.

2 hours ago, Strider21 said:

Information on EA features will be available soon? Why the rush to open up pre-orders then? ED should only open up pre-orders when they are ready to provide information on what the product will entail. 

I have a feeling this was done to take the aim away from some other things that have happened recently.

 

EDIT: I do agree that what I wrote above is not strictly on topic of this thread, but with the answers you have provided us so far, what else is there to talk about?

Edited April 24 by admiki

[MysteriousHonza]

4 minutes ago, Vortexstate said:

Logistics and a crew chief/flight engineer are the two most NEEDED things in the Chinook. You've got 100ish feet behind you that you can't see at all, so having peak communicant is needed.

"we are planning to add it but not during early access"... 
Just wait 8 years and you MIGHT get it as part of 30 dollar upgrade package. 

[Vortexstate]

It's pretty evident that most people will buy it anyway, which allows big companies like ED to get away with this.

Clearly, this module has been rushed, big time. I don't know what gave the green light for pre-orders or why the release date is set for a time that's far from ideal for ED themselves, but something needs to change.

If Nick Grey truly believes that DCS is a community game, then ED should treat it as such. Currently, community interaction seems limited to the players themselves, leaving us relying on assumptions rather than official promises/posts.

I'm fine with the 47 not having CTLD capabilities at launch/EA, but EA lasts a long, long time sometimes, and I don't want to be there for that. CTLD features and crew chief features, the two most important things for the Chinook, won't even be added during EA? I don't even think you guys discussed a crew chief on this forum. I feel as we should get actual developers, the ones who are working on these things, to answer us, and listen to us. Because, no offense, but having "clueless" community managers talk about stuff they don't know is painful for all of us.

I wish the best of luck to the team, and hopefully, just hopefully you guys can do this right.

[mono]

2 hours ago, NineLine said:

Guys keep the focus on the CH-47, some are trying to drag it off into another direction, I will only mention that 3 years ago we didn't have the extra performance we do now with MT as well we have Vulcan coming that is going to help new game features such as things coming with the Supercarrier, but again, this thread and FAQ is about the CH-47, please stick with that. If you do not want to buy it right now, then you don't have to but you don't need to share that here, it's OT. Thanks.

Yes, we will go through and make sure all questions, requests and wants are passed to the Producer on the CH-47, we have already been doing this 100% Thanks. The issue just becomes when people mess up the thread with OT stuff. Thanks!

Who's the CH-47 Producer? How many full time equivalents will they have at their disposal for the months from now to EA launch? How many full time equivalents will they have for the year after EA launch? Will there be a developer diary, even for a Cyrillic reading audience? Is there a plan to periodically report on and summarize the CH-47 unit's progress at intervals in a livestream or produced video diary, or possibly even something ambitious like Redkite's Mirage Early Access content that documents for posterity that you have a fit-for-purpose production pipeline for a product of this complexity, and what it looks like at snapshots across the life of the production?

[Statua]

If ED staff is relying so heavily on the community to support this airframe during EA through mods and scripting, why are they not involved very closely with these communities? I do not see a single staff member actively engaging with members in the Moose discord, one of the most popular and versatile script libraries. 

Providing more API access to in-game elements such as sling load events and having a more reliable multiplayer aircraft crash event are a few of the most critical features that are holding the scripting community back. We want to fill in these gaps while we wait for an official logistics system to be produced. 

I'm also wondering where community feedback and direction for a logistics comes from as I have not seen ED ask about it in the Moose discord or any of the rotary wing communities. 

[Jester986]

Well all that being said I really look forward to flying the 47 when it’s in a state that I find good enough. 

[ignition22]

2 hours ago, Vortexstate said:

It's pretty evident that most people will buy it anyway, which allows big companies like ED to get away with this.

There are maybe a few dozen people who post in social media all kinds of complaints and concerns, some reasonable and some hysterical / fanciful meanwhile thousands of other people pre purchase or later will buy the module. It's easy to make the mistake of thinking these forums or reddit are representative of all customers but they are more like echo chambers where a lot of people who get tired off all the full-time negativity leave and don't come back. It's a mistake to assume these posts reflect the general feelings of EDs customers.  

Time after time people seem to have a difficult time understanding that software development process is unique. No development cycle is the same as any before it and so making future predictions about how it will go is like predicting the stock market, impossible. 

Back on the topic.. I've never really been super interested in the chinook but its great to hear that general logistics functionality is high in the priority list at ED. As always it can't come soon enough and like others I hope it's not towards the end of some many years long early access. If the logistics is done well and really flushed out I can imagine being tempted into buying the chinook and c130 some day in the future. 

[Vortexstate]

4 minutes ago, ignition22 said:

There are maybe a few dozen people who post in social media all kinds of complaints and concerns, some reasonable and some hysterical / fanciful meanwhile thousands of other people pre purchase or later will buy the module. It's easy to make the mistake of thinking these forums or reddit are representative of all customers but they are more like echo chambers where a lot of people who get tired off all the full-time negativity leave and don't come back. It's a mistake to assume these posts reflect the general feelings of EDs customers.  

Time after time people seem to have a difficult time understanding that software development process is unique. No development cycle is the same as any before it and so making future predictions about how it will go is like predicting the stock market, impossible. 

Back on the topic.. I've never really been super interested in the chinook but its great to hear that general logistics functionality is high in the priority list at ED. As always it can't come soon enough and like others I hope it's not towards the end of some many years long early access. If the logistics is done well and really flushed out I can imagine being tempted into buying the chinook and c130 some day in the future. 

Uhh, man, you might want to read the thread. Everyone's sharing a common opinion, lol. It's most definitely how ED customers feel, because all of us are.

[NineLine]

Ok guys, I guess maybe we are not ready for a thread like this, I was hoping to see what you guys were looking for in the CH-47F, get some good questions and generate some more content for the FAQ but now we are just discussing way off topic things. I cleaned the thread a little but feel like I will just lock it for now until we have some more info. Sorry for all of you that were playing nice, I will try and get some of those questions answered and added to the FAQ. Thanks.

[NineLine]

Dear all, I have reopened this thread for questions about the CH-47, please try your best to keep it focused on that. Discussions about subscription models, other developers, etc are not going to be answered here. Thanks. 

[ThorBrasil]

Will this be possible in the DCS version? Thanks!
 

 

[NineLine]

35 minutes ago, ThorBrasil said:

Will this be possible in the DCS version? Thanks!
 

 

As I understand it we are doing a Block 1 (need to add that to the FAQ) and that refueling is a Block 2 thing (someone can correct me if I am wrong) BUT the team would like to look at this down the road as they agree it would be a very cool feature to have.