waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Oban]

15 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

Punish?  You mean like the last 10 months they worked without pay to support the module?  That punishment?  I think you need to be looking at this from a different perspective.  

Yes he's correct, Ron opted to hold his module owners to ransom, good faith works both ways too.

Razbam should have gone through their legal team and exhausted all resources instead of shafting every single Razbam module owner to get what he wanted, classy move on his part... said nobody ever.

Not one person here knows what the terms and conditions are/were between ED and Razbam, that's down to them to negotiate, but going on a rant on public platform rarely works well for the rantee, the road to hell is paved with good intention, that being said Razbam cares not a jot about the customers who own their models if they're threatening to abondon all their products entirely , they'll be totally finished as a 3d developer. If they cared, they'd have considered the wider consequences.

For all those demanding that ED stop selling Razbam products, it's not that simple, why not just disable all current razbam products right now if Razbam are not going to support the products anylonger ... Razbam have not put out a statement to say they're closing down, and that there will never be updates again, all they've stated is that until the legal issues have been resolved, then they're not going to update their products.

Have they terminated all the contracts of all their current staff, told all their coders they're closing the door for good? No they have not, they want this issue to be fixed as much as anyone else, is it a shyt show? for sure it is, is there going to be a loser? highly likely, at the moment the consumer is the one losing out on updates, that's all, nothing else has been set in stone. All Razbam modules are still functioning, and will continue to function until either party make a decision that will end it all, and that could be months away, even longer.

 

[Beirut]

Just now, lead dispenser said:

your joking right

 

Hold on, let me check...

 

Nope.

 

Just now, lead dispenser said:

you literally said above that sometimes updates are not so prompt an after 8 weeks you think its been abandoned 

how many game patch's have we had in 8 weeks we've had 2 an razbam have only missed 1 the latest 5 june, the patch before that may 22 razbam updated south atlantic map so they could of updated planes but didn't that's on them  

 

But this is not an ordinary waiting period, this time period has been one of RB saying "We shall not".

 

When RB turns it around and says "we shall", I will be delighted. I very much enjoy my RB modules. But there is intent and there is reality. Intent may well be to provide support again. But reality is my RB modules are officially orphaned. I look forward to that changing.

[Rainmaker]

2 minutes ago, Oban said:

Yes he's correct, Ron opted to hold his module owners to ransom, good faith works both ways too.

Razbam should have gone through their legal team and exhausted all resources instead of shafting every single Razbam module owner to get what he wanted, classy move on his part... said nobody ever.

Not one person here knows what the terms and conditions are/were between ED and Razbam, that's down to them to negotiate, but going on a rant on public platform rarely works well for the rantee, the road to hell is paved with good intention, that being said Razbam cares not a jot about the customers who own their models if they're threatening to abondon all their products entirely , they'll be totally finished as a 3d developer. If they cared, they'd have considered the wider consequences.

For all those demanding that ED stop selling Razbam products, it's not that simple, why not just disable all current razbam products right now if Razbam are not going to support the products anylonger ... Razbam have not put out a statement to say they're closing down, and that there will never be updates again, all they've stated is that until the legal issues have been resolved, then they're not going to update their products.

Have they terminated all the contracts of all their current staff, told all their coders they're closing the door for good? No they have not, they want this issue to be fixed as much as anyone else, is it a shyt show? for sure it is, is there going to be a loser? highly likely, at the moment the consumer is the one losing out on updates, that's all, nothing else has been set in stone. All Razbam modules are still functioning, and will continue to function until either party make a decision that will end it all, and that could be months away, even longer.

 

Oh. So in your mind, continue to work for free?  Cater to you and not the income developers deserve for their work?  How non-selfish of you to consider you are not the only party involved. 
There was statement made. The one that likely had to be made, instead of just being silent, with no development. Was it does to influence opinion?  Probably. Was it done to ‘punish’ you?  Like…seriously?  Think of that beyond the fact that just you exist. 

[lead dispenser]

Just now, Beirut said:

But this is not an ordinary waiting period, this time period has been one of RB saying "We shall not".

 

When RB turns it around and says "we shall", I will be delighted. I very much enjoy my RB modules. But there is intent and there is reality. Intent may well be to provide support again. But reality is my RB modules are officially orphaned. I look forward to that changing.

1 missed patch is not an ordinary waiting period your right is not its 1 patch late certainly not abandoned though an as we have had no official word there's no reason to think they would be 

[Beirut]

5 minutes ago, lead dispenser said:

1 missed patch is not an ordinary waiting period your right is not its 1 patch late certainly not abandoned though an as we have had no official word there's no reason to think they would be 

 

As stated, when RB changes their tune from "We shall not" to "We shall", I will be delighted. I look forward to F-15E updates.

 

But as long as my bought and paid for modules exist under a developer's umbrella of "We shall not", then that is the reality. My modules are orphans. Hopefully that will change.

[upyr1]

On 5/30/2024 at 5:11 PM, NineLine said:

It's impossible to answer right now, as I said above no matter what the end result is we will do whatever we can to make the post-drama the best it can be. Our united goal right now is to get back to as normal as possible life as it was before this. DCS needs the F-15E, it has it now, the best-case scenario is to get back to normal business with it.

Can you clarify what the situation is with the source code? I've heard conflicting stories on this, I believe after the Hawk Fiasco that ED had plans to take over module source code if anyone left I have also heard that wasn't the case. 

[Ignition]

39 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Again, all I have to do to make a good assumption is looking at Razbams history and just put 2+2 together to see where the problem lies. It may not be a 100% correct assumption, but its a "safe" assumption. As for the business model, its not much different than what Microsoft has offered for their simulator for the last 20+ years and counting. Seems to be a good model TBH.

 

"assumption"

[Horns]

Aside from the current debate: It was said earlier in this thread that the Mirage 2000 had been ‘fixed’ in yesterday’s update, even though it wasn’t in the changelog. Just mentioning for those who might be waiting on that.

[Oban]

4 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

Oh. So in your mind, continue to work for free?  Cater to you and not the income developers deserve for their work?  How non-selfish of you to consider you are not the only party involved. 
There was statement made. The one that likely had to be made, instead of just being silent, with no development. Was it does to influence opinion?  Probably. Was it done to ‘punish’ you?  Like…seriously?  Think of that beyond the fact that just you exist. 

That's not what I said, and well you know it, I have stated multiple times, that all of this should have been done through legal representatives, and not thrown into the public, and holding them all to ransome, you may think that's an acceptable strategy, I don't.

Are you privy to the terms and conditions of when payments will be made and to the invoicing procedures between Razbam and Eagle Dynamics?

Are you privy to all the communications in that 10 month period between Razbam Finance department and Eagle Dynamics Finance department ?

Are you privy to the emails between Razbam Finance requesting payment and the submitted invoices as per the terms and conditions ?

Are you privy to the meeting between Razbam stakeholders as to how they're going to proceed with receiving their funds and the passing of the decision to go through legal channels

Are you privy to the meeting between Razbam CEO/Finance Department and their legal representatives in which to raise the issue through legal matters?

Are you privy to the meeting between all Razbam employees in which they all agreed that going public and creating a shytstorm ?

Are you privy to the alleged dispute over IP rights ?

Are you privy to the possibility of NDA's between both parties ?

My guess is the answer is no, you have no real clue, you're not in any loop, nor in a position to know the entire story, you're in the dark as much as the rest of us, and you're venting. That is your prerogative, as a customer, it's your right.

I have been in a position within a company where it took over a year to get invoices paid by a client, when it should have been a matter of 90 days max as per their contractual terms and conditions, of which I wrote, even having meetings with their CEO to try and resolve outstanding invoices, and they still dragged their heels..

Regardless of the non payment Razbam should have had contingencies in place for paying their employees, and all of them should have had clauses in their terms and conditions as to which they'd have protections in place for such issues, how many razbam employees went public about not getting paid for 10 months? How many Razbam employees sought legal advice as they'd not received a salary in 10 months?

Nobody starts a project and expects a deferred payment with no explanation as to why it's not forthcoming, when the project is released, albeit in early access...

Again, not one person venting here has access to the terms and conditions.

ED wouldn't withold payment of invoice without probable cause, and just reason, until that reason gets made public, which is highly unlikely, then the shytshow will keep rolling on.

[PD919]

RAZBAM is losing the PR battle by air dirty laundry publicly and not putting a muzzle on their discord.  It's a ****show over there.  

The prudent move by RAZBAM would be to say that they are refusing the add new content to their modules, but will continue to bugfix until the lawyers have resolved the issue.  Both sides would have more pressure to come to an arrangement.  Bug fixing just shows the company is acting in good faith but feels wronged.

[Rainmaker]

3 minutes ago, Oban said:

That's not what I said, and well you know it, I have stated multiple times, that all of this should have been done through legal representatives, and not thrown into the public, and holding them all to ransome, you may think that's an acceptable strategy, I don't.

Are you privy to the terms and conditions of when payments will be made and to the invoicing procedures between Razbam and Eagle Dynamics?

Are you privy to all the communications in that 10 month period between Razbam Finance department and Eagle Dynamics Finance department ?

Are you privy to the emails between Razbam Finance requesting payment and the submitted invoices as per the terms and conditions ?

Are you privy to the meeting between Razbam stakeholders as to how they're going to proceed with receiving their funds and the passing of the decision to go through legal channels

Are you privy to the meeting between Razbam CEO/Finance Department and their legal representatives in which to raise the issue through legal matters?

Are you privy to the meeting between all Razbam employees in which they all agreed that going public and creating a shytstorm ?

Are you privy to the alleged dispute over IP rights ?

Are you privy to the possibility of NDA's between both parties ?

My guess is the answer is no, you have no real clue, you're not in any loop, nor in a position to know the entire story, you're in the dark as much as the rest of us, and you're venting. That is your prerogative, as a customer, it's your right.

I have been in a position within a company where it took over a year to get invoices paid by a client, when it should have been a matter of 90 days max as per their contractual terms and conditions, of which I wrote, even having meetings with their CEO to try and resolve outstanding invoices, and they still dragged their heels..

Regardless of the non payment Razbam should have had contingencies in place for paying their employees, and all of them should have had clauses in their terms and conditions as to which they'd have protections in place for such issues, how many razbam employees went public about not getting paid for 10 months? How many Razbam employees sought legal advice as they'd not received a salary in 10 months?

Nobody starts a project and expects a deferred payment with no explanation as to why it's not forthcoming, when the project is released, albeit in early access...

Again, not one person venting here has access to the terms and conditions.

ED wouldn't withold payment of invoice without probable cause, and just reason, until that reason gets made public, which is highly unlikely, then the shytshow will keep rolling on.

And if there was no probable cause?  Then what?  So far, there was a very broad-brush accusation made to IP infringement.  Why respond at all if that’s the case?  

The payments that were never made support both you and the devs that have rack up thousands of man-hours in order to get to a releasable state.  That happened, and there has been no compensation. You honestly think it got to this point without any prior deliberation?  That you were the first choice at the negotiating table?  If not, I stand by what I stated the first time.  You were never ‘held hostage’ over anything. The customer is a result of fallout, that’s it. If you find that tree that magically grows money, I’m sure development could continue. Until then, there is an end state and the road ends. The pavers have no money to work.  Matter of fact, they are in the negative.  You could have seen the same scenario play out 6,7,8 months ago instead of now, but you didn’t…you were given continued support and not ‘held hostage’ instead. 

As for venting over the module as a customer, you don’t know me all that well obviously.  The module doesnt mean that much to me.  I started playing DCS again to support the module, and basically nothing more. I can easily leave it behind and do something else. What I do care about is good people, that I personally know, giving up 1000s of personal hours for unpaid work while someone else gets to play with the money as they see fit.  And so far, again, that’s based on a very broad-brushed claim that’s been made, without a court decision mind you, that someone is guilty of something based on a single-part opinion. Not a court opinion, a single party. So yes, forgive me if I take a side over someone’s income source to make a living vs someone’s hobby.  But don’t assume you have any idea about what I know or my reason for being here.  

[Hammer1-1]

1 hour ago, Ignition said:

"assumption"

You know what else are "assumptions"? Hypothesis and theories; all of which are rooted in study. Lets keep pretending that Razbam can do no wrong and you will be the fisrt to get bit in the ass the next time this happens. You know who else has a history in not supporting their modules? VEAO and they're gone with just an apology/excuse letter.  15+ years and only two instances seems to look like a great track record.

Edited June 7, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[Oban]

20 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

And if there was no probable cause?  Then what?  So far, there was a very broad-brush accusation made to IP infringement.  Why respond at all if that’s the case?  

The payments that were never made support both you and the devs that have rack up thousands of man-hours in order to get to a releasable state.  That happened, and there has been no compensation. You honestly think it got to this point without any prior deliberation?  That you were the first choice at the negotiating table?  If not, I stand by what I stated the first time.  You were never ‘held hostage’ over anything. The customer is a result of fallout, that’s it. If you find that tree that magically grows money, I’m sure development could continue. Until then, there is an end state and the road ends. The pavers have no money to work.  Matter of fact, they are in the negative.  You could have seen the same scenario play out 6,7,8 months ago instead of now, but you didn’t…you were given continued support and not ‘held hostage’ instead. 

As for venting over the module as a customer, you don’t know me all that well obviously.  The module doesnt mean that much to me.  I started playing DCS again to support the module, and basically nothing more. I can easily leave it behind and do something else. What I do care about is good people, that I personally know, giving up 1000s of personal hours for unpaid work while someone else gets to play with the money as they see fit.  And so far, again, that’s based on a very broad-brushed claim that’s been made, without a court decision mind you, that someone is guilty of something based on a single-part opinion. Not a court opinion, a single party. So yes, forgive me if I take a side over someone’s income source to make a living vs someone’s hobby.  But don’t assume you have any idea about what I know or my reason for being here.  

Oh it's been fairly obvious as to which side of the fence you're on, and where your allegiances lie, and there's no problems with that.

It's commendable that you're more concerned about those behind the scenes at Razbam rather than the consumers, the way I see it, both have lost out, as for the employees, the moral dillema for them is walking out of a company that's been unable to pay them, and risk losing not getting paid at all, or staying put, and still not getting paid, a tough choice.

I do see your point and where you're coming from, personally I will wait for the lawyers to hash this out, but thats possibly going to take a considerable amount of time, and in the meantime, that doesn't help Razbam employees, I highly doubt they can sustain several more months without facing liquidation or bankruptcy.. and they will cease to be, and that's the last thing employees, clients or customers want.

It's a shyt show, and the relationship between both parties will never be the same again, and more than likely untenable, no amount of refunds will help the Razbam employees in this case.

[Hammer1-1]

50 minutes ago, PD919 said:

RAZBAM is losing the PR battle by air dirty laundry publicly and not putting a muzzle on their discord.  It's a ****show over there.  

The prudent move by RAZBAM would be to say that they are refusing the add new content to their modules, but will continue to bugfix until the lawyers have resolved the issue.  Both sides would have more pressure to come to an arrangement.  Bug fixing just shows the company is acting in good faith but feels wronged.

I agree 100%.

[Rainmaker]

1 minute ago, Oban said:

Oh it's been fairly obvious as to which side of the fence you're on, and where your allegiances lie, and there's no problems with that.

It's commendable that you're more concerned about those behind the scenes at Razbam rather than the consumers, the way I see it, both have lost out, as for the employees, the moral dillema for them is walking out of a company that's been unable to pay them, and risk losing not getting paid at all, or staying put, and still not getting paid, a tough choice.

I do see your point and where you're coming from, personally I will wait for the lawyers to hash this out, but thats possibly going to take a considerable amount of time, and in the meantime, that doesn't help Razbam employees, I highly doubt they can sustain several more months without facing liquidation or bankruptcy.. and they will cease to be, and that's the last thing employees, clients or customers want.

It's a shyt show, and the relationship between both parties will never be the same again, and more than likely untenable, no amount of refunds will help the Razbam employees in this case.

Well, right now there are no refunds, store credit?  Wanna guess where the money stays?  And what could less sales receipts of the F-15 do?  I’ll let everyone else solve that equation. 
 

You can only work on the premise of an IOU for so long. That time has come.  So, no, I can sit there and agree that the community is being held for ransom.  Unfortunate bystander?  Yes. Agreed.  The way I see it, that IOU is now years old, not months. Years of dev time on the idea that it equates to food on the table at the end of the day. 

[Oban]

Just now, Rainmaker said:

Well, right now there are no refunds, store credit?  Wanna guess where the money stays?  And what could less sales receipts of the F-15 do?  I’ll let everyone else solve that equation. 
 

You can only work on the premise of an IOU for so long. That time has come.  So, no, I can sit there and agree that the community is being held for ransom.  Unfortunate bystander?  Yes. Agreed.  The way I see it, that IOU is now years old, not months. Years of dev time on the idea that it equates to food on the table at the end of the day. 

Has there been any change in the stance from the CEO that they have no intention in abandoning their product then?

[lead dispenser]

1 hour ago, Beirut said:

As stated, when RB changes their tune from "We shall not" to "We shall", I will be delighted. I look forward to F-15E updates.

 

But as long as my bought and paid for modules exist under a developer's umbrella of "We shall not", then that is the reality. My modules are orphans. Hopefully that will change.

There has been no official statement.so no its not. you just have the need to be right in a situation where your not  .if you want to believe that your products are abandoned that's up to you its not reality but what ever helps you sleep at night

[Tom P]

Don't worry guys, just 2 week.

[Rainmaker]

39 minutes ago, Oban said:

Has there been any change in the stance from the CEO that they have no intention in abandoning their product then?

I dunno?!?  

I would just ask, where's the money gonna come from?  Rational question I feel like.  I don't feel like there ever was an intent to pack up and leave which was what a bunch of initial claims were from the community.  'Oh, they are just abandoning ship, taking our money and running'.  Remember when everyone was accusing the CEOs statement of being made up and surely they had been paid?  Surely no one works this long without payment?  Pepperidge Farm remembers.  Probably still remnants of that in this thread most likely.  Where are we at now?  Everyone put that speculation to be since it's been confirmed?

In the end,, money has to come from somewhere.  Developers have to eat and provide for their family.  You have spent it, the people that are wanting to support it don't have it.  That's where we are.

The end question for the consumer needs to be, "Are you okay with the money you paid not being in the hands of the person who spent hours at their computer making it for you?'.  Or in the hands of someone who didn't?  That's for everyone else to decide.  Me personally, not a fan.  That $50 everyone spent (only speaking for one module here) won't get anyone very far these days, certainly not me.  I have one bill under that, can't fill the gas tank, etc etc.  But that conglomerate of money turns in to tens of thousands and likely hundreds of thousands of dollars for those who spent 5+ years developing something on the idea that they would be able to use the rewards from that to pay their bills, provide for family, and someday maybe have a retirement.  Right now, that's not happening.  The whole ordeal is much grander than what equates to a hobby for me.  Just my $0.02

[NineLine]

2 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

Oh. So in your mind, continue to work for free?  Cater to you and not the income developers deserve for their work?  How non-selfish of you to consider you are not the only party involved. 
There was statement made. The one that likely had to be made, instead of just being silent, with no development. Was it does to influence opinion?  Probably. Was it done to ‘punish’ you?  Like…seriously?  Think of that beyond the fact that just you exist. 

Like it or not, all our paying customers feel punished by this and no matter what anyone thinks or believes the share is, both sides share the blame of anyone feeling punished which is why the path to the quickest resolution is needed and I hope both are committed to that. I can only speak for ED but I truly want to believe both sides see and feel this urgency.

[Major_Mayhem]

3 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

Punish?  You mean like the last 10 months they worked without pay to support the module?  That punishment?  I think you need to be looking at this from a different perspective.  

I really don't care, I don't care about ED either, I care no more for them then I do a Chrysler employee when the clutch on my Jeep goes out and I'm stuck on the side of the road during a labor dispute between them and their company. So it doesn't matter to me what is going on between ED and Razbam.

I'm the customer, I'm not their family and I'm not their friend, The only investment I have with them is the money I paid for their Early Access product under the promise it will be supported and fully developed which is now very questionable.

Nate coulda ran off with Ron's Wife, I'm not their marriage counselor, and It doesn't change the fact I paid for a lemon module that right now is looking like it's going to go the way of VEAO Simulation's Hawk T.1A. 

My beef with Razbam is that they deliberately used us to put pressure on ED to give Razbam what Razbam wants.

Why hasn't Razbam just litigated? Why not just get a lawyer and sue, heck they should have at least one on retainer.

If Razbam is in the right than this should have never had come before us in the first place and Ron should have kept his pie hole shut. Instead, He basically told the customer base that their stuff isn't going to work any more cause ED did them a naughty an so they are no longer supporting their products, so there!

"They give me what I want or Your Toys will break!" <In evil villain voice>

Right now, I just want my money back on the Razbam products I have purchased in store credit. I will find other products sold by ED to spend it on. However, I will never ever buy another Razbam product for any sim, I will never pre-order another product from ED for DCS ever again (Th. I will either pay full price for the products when they release or wait even longer and catch them when they go on sale. That may be a year or two but once bitten twice shy. And Lastly I don't want to have to play on 5+ year old version of DCS to use a product I paid for like those poor souls that bought Hawk T1a, If that happens I will no longer be be buying anything from ED ... I'll be stuck on old version anyway and won't be able to use new products, so why buy them?!?!.

The biggest wrong I see with ED right now is continuing to Sell Razbam products specially if they are in the right. unfortunately IF ED is in the right that also means Razbam is probably done for and won't be able to continue to support and develop their products any way, No one will let them sell mods for their sims let alone ED. So pretty much they will be out of the Sim/Mod game.

The only bright side of this is If ED is in the right they can allegedly take over the mods to further support and developer them at which time I will happily repurchase them then.

I'm not a fan boy I just want what I paid for and I don't like being used or manipulated to help settle some one else's dispute.

Edited June 7, 2024 by Major_Mayhem

[Rainmaker]

1 hour ago, Oban said:

Has there been any change in the stance from the CEO that they have no intention in abandoning their product then?

Additionally, that guy, is probably his own worst enemy when it comes to social media.  Someone make me God for a day and I will change all his passwords....along with about another 1000 public figures (I have a list)  in the world.  Consider that a promise.

Edited June 7, 2024 by Rainmaker

[Oban]

1 minute ago, Rainmaker said:

Additionally, that guy, is probably his own worst enemy when it comes to social media.  Someone make me God for a day and I will change all his passwords....along with about another 1000 public figures (I have a list)  in the world.  Consider that a promise.

 

Now this made me laugh!!

[krazyj]

3 hours ago, Beirut said:

 

Eight-weeks ago... no support

Seven-weeks ago... no support

Six-weeks ago... no support

Five-weeks ago... no support

Four weeks ago... no support

Three-weeks ago... no support

Two-weeks ago... no support

One week ago... no support

Yesterday... no support

Today... no support

Tomorrow... who knows

 

As it stands right now and as it has stood for two-months, my RB modules are orphans.

 

.

 

by that standard the Sania map has also been abandoned. over 12 months and not one update.

I dont have RB products but looking at the glaring obvious thing. other 3rd party devs have been paid, we assume this as no other products havent been updated in a long while aside from Sanai, so the logic here should dictate that RB did something to make ED withhold payment. 

Not taking sides, just looking at things objectively.  

[Rainmaker]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

Like it or not, all our paying customers feel punished by this and no matter what anyone thinks or believes the share is, both sides share the blame of anyone feeling punished which is why the path to the quickest resolution is needed and I hope both are committed to that. I can only speak for ED but I truly want to believe both sides see and feel this urgency.

Well, I’m sure the paying customers didn’t pay their money to be held as a litigation tool between parties either, nor was that their intent for it, but here we are.  So, talk to yo people, have them pay those people that put forth the man hours to put the -15 in the game (pretty sure that was the buyers intent), and everyone else can go back to doing what they were doing 2 months ago. After that, the two at the top can go have whatever jousting match they wanna have and leave everyone else, and the money they spent out of it. Sounds like pretty darn easy solution to me.  Pretty sure no one would continue to feel ‘punished’ after that right?  

Edited June 7, 2024 by Rainmaker