waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[negrete]

19 hours ago, Lasko said:

That isn't how any of this works.  You want them to essentially say "This is a confidential matter, but here is what we know..."  You have unrealistic expectations.

"we should be allowed to know at least some sort of timeline when this is going to be resolved even if its a wild guess"

I meant the time when this is going to be resolved. Is the time also confidential? Maybe my expectations are to high that the parties are going to treat us like adults and tell us a posible time of when this is going to be resolved. We paid for a product that was not delivered, and a few that may or are already in problems, so even if its early access and dont finish it, they at least should make an excuse or say someting about it. Early access is always a risk and we have got too used to get ripped of by unfinished products in all the game industry.

Bignewy is a estimated time on when this is going be resolved also confidential? Im not asking if its prudent or not to say it, or if ED wants to say anything about it, that, I could understand it even if I dont share it. Due to people taken dates as life or death thing.

[draconus]

5 minutes ago, negrete said:

I meant the time when this is going to be resolved.

No one knows this, please, understand. It may be tomorrow or 6 years. It can't be predicted.

If you feel ripped just apply for refund.

[NineLine]

12 minutes ago, negrete said:

"we should be allowed to know at least some sort of timeline when this is going to be resolved even if its a wild guess"

I meant the time when this is going to be resolved. Is the time also confidential? Maybe my expectations are to high that the parties are going to treat us like adults and tell us a posible time of when this is going to be resolved. We paid for a product that was not delivered, and a few that may or are already in problems, so even if its early access and dont finish it, they at least should make an excuse or say someting about it. Early access is always a risk and we have got too used to get ripped of by unfinished products in all the game industry.

Bignewy is a estimated time on when this is going be resolved also confidential? Im not asking if its prudent or not to say it, or if ED wants to say anything about it, that, I could understand it even if I dont share it. Due to people taken dates as life or death thing.

Legal things do not work like this, we cannot give any estimated times right now of if or when this will be resolved. 

[Lasko]

16 minutes ago, negrete said:

We paid for a product that was not delivered

If this is your main problem, then request a credit to buy something else.  If that's not enough and the situation has soured you on DCS overall, that is unfortunate but still doesn't change anything.

[bfr]

6 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Not every dispute ends in payment, it may if the losing party still isn't able to fulfill obligations, but courts can decide to force a company to fulfill the contract before resorting to monetary penalties for non-compliance

What exactly do you think this obligation that must be fulfilled is? The dispute isn't about delivery of modules, the cessation of work on the existing and ongoing ones is merely a side-effect.

[Mizzy]

5 hours ago, NineLine said:

Legal things do not work like this, we cannot give any estimated times right now of if or when this will be resolved. 

'If' I believe is the operative in this dispute.

Mizzy

[Horns]

19 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Well, divorce courts are about breaking up a contract 

 

And being court-ordered to finish a job isn't out of the realm of possibilities

I know these are two separate responses that just happen to fall within the same post, but I would love to see the look on some poor SOB's face if the pronouncement in his divorce case was that he had to return to the marriage until he could provide his partner with a decent husband 

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, Horns said:

I would love to see the look on some poor SOB's face if the pronouncement in his divorce case was that he had to return to the marriage until he could provide his partner with a decent husband 

New reality show coming up!

16 hours ago, Nightdare said:

What? ...you don't know what a marriage contract is? 

I was referring to what they should have been, in a perfect world, (fairytales). I'm divorced. The economic part of them are always broken in some way or another, and most times it doesn't make sense to go to court. How many couples do you hear about fighting over dogs and what not. (Luckily I'm allergic).

Inheritance is another similar touchy subject. Egos and greed. No wars without them. 

[Hiob]

17 hours ago, Horns said:

If you're going to post in Russian, post in the Russian forum.

I know - completely off-topic - but a suggestion to ED ( @BIGNEWY), given the state of art of translation algorithms, wouldn't it be possible to auto-translate a post to english in the main forum (in addition to the original language post).
I get the issue with foreign language posts in the main forum, but the problem with the localized ones is that they are comparably small and less frequented.

[Nightdare]

19 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

Not going to happen. Courts want closure. They don't set themselves up to have to chase up software developers half way across the world in order to engage in ongoing disputes about what exactly 'fulfilling the contract' would mean.

They never do, when have you ever seen the court check their verdicts still being honored?

That's for the plaintiff to bring back to attention of the courts

All the court decides is yes/how much or no/bye concerning the plaintiff's case (and might add, if the defendant still won't comply, what the repercussions will be)

As far as the court cares, that's closure

 

 

19 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

Not that they can chase the actual people behind the code anyway, since they aren't party to the contract. They were employed or more likely subcontracted by RazBam. They could simply say 'no'. And RazBam would clearly struggle to find anyone with requisite experience to take over under such circumstances.

 

That's Razbam's problem, not the court's

RB's business model is about hiring people to do work for them, so they would need to do what they always do: find people to do that work

Just like a contractor building your house and failing to fulfill his obligations, even if his company might not employ any workmen directly, he can be compelled by the court to finish the job

 

 

5 hours ago, Horns said:

I know these are two separate responses that just happen to fall within the same post, but I would love to see the look on some poor SOB's face if the pronouncement in his divorce case was that he had to return to the marriage until he could provide his partner with a decent husband 

Ironically, prior to No-Fault divorce, spouses could be denied divorce and ordered to go back home (The small print called "Til death do us part")

 

Edited February 18 by Nightdare

[Nightdare]

13 hours ago, bfr said:

What exactly do you think this obligation that must be fulfilled is? The dispute isn't about delivery of modules, the cessation of work on the existing and ongoing ones is merely a side-effect.

Good point, but one I would have cleared up in writing if I were to have a dispute with the same 'currently not cooperating' party in another matter

 

-Note: I'm not saying RB is still hostile at the moment, but the dispute arose by RB not cooperating with the C&D, Once bitten twice shy

[bfr]

1 hour ago, Nightdare said:

Good point, but one I would have cleared up in writing if I were to have a dispute with the same 'currently not cooperating' party in another matter

 

-Note: I'm not saying RB is still hostile at the moment, but the dispute arose by RB not cooperating with the C&D, Once bitten twice shy

If things eventually get settled amicably and Razbam have the means, personnel and desire to pick up from where they left off then work will no doubt continue. No one can force them into doing that though.

[AndyJWest]

@Nightdare: I'm not going to bother engaging with you any more, since you are clearly more concerned with inventing hypothetical scenarios to play fantasy-lawyer about than you are with the actual topic of this thread.

[Horns]

According to the OP, the dispute currently has nothing to do with the non-completion of the F-15E. As far as we know, to this point ED *has not* claimed that Razbam have breached contract by not continuing to work on the mudhen up until this point, and Razbam have repeatedly stated they are prepared to resume work. If you have an official statement from either party that says otherwise, please link it, otherwise let's not confuse the timeline: Unless something has changed, Razbam ceasing to update their modules was a response to the dispute, not the subject of it.

As always, take official comments over mine.

[Pribs86]

I just want to say that I don't care about the politics, legal, or whatever it is between Razbam and ED. I bought the Harrier about a month back or so and have about 50hrs in it now and just wanted to say that I absolutely love the module. There are some issues with it, yes, but it is so fun and I believe that they did a wonderful job on it. It is fascinating to me to learn a new module that is completely different with the VTOL. I just wanted to spread some positivity somewhere and this seemed like the right place to do it. I hope that a resolution can be reached with both companies and neither Razbam or ED forget why they started this in the first place.... to share their passion for HAVING FUN. Don't forget it fellas, and thank you both for what you have done so far. Keep kicking ass!!!!

[TobiasDeVil]

In retrospect, I see it as a quarrel between two small spoiled children who would need a third authority figure to resolve their dispute decisively enough. 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

1 hour ago, TobiasDeVil said:

In retrospect, I see it as a quarrel between two small spoiled children who would need a third authority figure to resolve their dispute decisively enough. 

A lot of cases of this nature can boil down to this. Is it reductive? Extremely. But, is it cathartic? Definitely.

[Schmidtfire]

On 2/17/2025 at 8:19 PM, NineLine said:

Legal things do not work like this, we cannot give any estimated times right now of if or when this will be resolved. 

Let's say the situation gets resolved. ED protects it's IP and Razbam gets hit with a breach of contract. How will that outcome improve my RB modules?

And on the other hand, let's say that there is some kind of settlement. Razbam getting back to work with ED like nothing has happened? Yeah right 

...again not a good outcome for my RB modules. Perhaps I'm missing something, but from my perspective - it looks like there is nothing to gain for the DCS players,
no matter which company comes out on top. Offering a refund on the F-15E that early in the process speaks volumes.

The word if  is also kind of concerning when this situation has been going on for almost a year. Multiple modules are affected and has not received updates or fixes.
I hope I'm wrong, but if kind of signals that it's an acceptable outcome to leave this mess like it is. In two years time everyone will be talking about the MiG-29
and F-35 anyways...

[NineLine]

Just now, Schmidtfire said:

Let's say the situation gets resolved. ED protects it's IP and Razbam gets hit with a breach of contract. How will that outcome improve my RB modules?

And on the other hand, let's say that there is some kind of settlement. Razbam getting back to work with ED like nothing has happened? Yeah right 

...again not a good outcome for my RB modules. Perhaps I'm missing something, but from my perspective - it looks like there is nothing to gain for the DCS players,
no matter which company comes out on top. Offering a refund on the F-15E that early in the process speaks volumes.

The word if  is also kind of concerning when this situation has been going on for almost a year. Multiple modules are affected and has not received updates or fixes.
I hope I'm wrong, but if kind of signals that it's an acceptable outcome to leave this mess like it is. In two years time everyone will be talking about the MiG-29
and F-35 anyways...

Protection of the IP has a large impact on DCS customers for sure, although it's not always abundantly clear, especially with the cloak of legal involvement. I cannot go into what it means and why you should care because of it other than it's important to resolve this and move forward. In very simple terms though, maintaining the integrity of an IP maintains the value of what you purchased. 

As for going back to work as nothing happened, it's simply not possible, nor is it possible to day 1 of the resolution have every customer feel secure as they did the day before this all happened. It will take hard work on everyone's part, ED and RB included to restore customer confidence and confidence in each other. I hope everyone will be working towards regaining that trust on day 1 though. 
 

[TobiasDeVil]

22 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

A lot of cases of this nature can boil down to this. Is it reductive? Extremely. But, is it cathartic? Definitely.

From my point of view, nothing has happened all year. The will that should have addressed and solved the problem at the outset will probably continue with its unique strategy and we will all be delighted with the results.

Edited February 26 by TobiasDeVil

[JuiceIsLoose]

16 hours ago, NineLine said:

Protection of the IP has a large impact on DCS customers for sure, although it's not always abundantly clear, especially with the cloak of legal involvement. I cannot go into what it means and why you should care because of it other than it's important to resolve this and move forward. In very simple terms though, maintaining the integrity of an IP maintains the value of what you purchased. 

As for going back to work as nothing happened, it's simply not possible, nor is it possible to day 1 of the resolution have every customer feel secure as they did the day before this all happened. It will take hard work on everyone's part, ED and RB included to restore customer confidence and confidence in each other. I hope everyone will be working towards regaining that trust on day 1 though. 
 

I'm sure some transparency from Eagle Dynamics would sure help in restoring customer confidence. Not sure how you actually regain any trust with no transparency. 

[BIGNEWY]

53 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

I'm sure some transparency from Eagle Dynamics would sure help in restoring customer confidence. Not sure how you actually regain any trust with no transparency. 

This isn't Judge Judy, the IP dispute is a private one and a legal matter, to post publicly about that is unprofessional and would be contrary to legal advice. 

We posted a response when RAZBAM decided to go public and now we continue to wait for RAZBAM and a resolution to the dispute. There is nothing more to add for now.

thank you

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

2 hours ago, TobiasDeVil said:

From my point of view, nothing has happened all year. The will that should have addressed and solved the problem at the outset will probably continue with its unique strategy and we will all be delighted with the results.

Unfortunately, our POV doesn't enter into it. Private companies don't have to share certain information publicly unless subpoenaed or compelled to do so, whatever the legal lingua franca states. Even then, it'd come out in a court proceeding. They're also under NDA for the time being as per their legal teams.

We'd like to all think the customer comes first, but once things hit legal? That might no longer be the case given the nature of the claims put forth.

Edited February 26 by MiG21bisFishbedL

[scommander2]

51 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

We'd like to all think the customer comes first

Agreed completely, and I guess that RB lacks the same concept.  Otherwise, we should not wait so long. 

Sorry, I have not followed this thread for a while and just wondering:

Will ED have any backup/alternative plan to do something for F-15E after a period time (says 6 months)? 

 

Edited February 26 by scommander2

[WRCRob]

At this point, I am still riding out the storm in my Strike Eagle, but if there is no resolution or the resolution is the removal of the Strike Eagle and other Razbam Modules from the sim, I would be nice if we could get a credit for the upcoming 15C for those that stuck it out. While I will miss the A/G Aspects of the E, I would be willing to trade 1 eagle for another to scratch that itch. However it is my sincerest hope that something can be accomplished and that some form of resolution comes from this and we can continue to use the Strike Eagle and other Razbam products for Years to come.