waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Maduce]

38 minutes ago, Tom Kazansky said:

I hope you don't own too many of ED's products, because you would lose them all if everyone followed your example.

 

I do, but that doesn't mean that I need to continue to do so and potentially throw good money after bad. I will resume my purchases once I feel it is safe to do so. You do you. 

[Oban]

22 more pages of he said she said, and blame gaming.. and the divide continues.

[lead dispenser]

1 hour ago, Notso said:

I don't think ANY company would stop working after not being paid for 2 months.  That's not even a full quarter.  Also, ps that ED themselves said they've withheld payment since the release due to the alleged issue. 

 

I think the fact that RB continued to work without pay at all for like 9-10 months by not only just doing Bug fixes but also adding new features Like JDAMs, TFR, etc, while this dispute was on-going is laudable.  It means they fully expected the issue to get resolved quickly and everything would go back to normal.  

Why would they think the dispute would be over or would be dealt with if they hadn't made any changes or fixed what was being disputed. i mean they would know if they had fixed the problem or not . if they had done I'm sure we wouldn't of heard about it 9 months later from a 1 sided post on a discord . i would almost go as far as to say the staff probably didn't even know there was a dispute otherwise they would of stopped much sooner. or fixed what was the problem . wouldn't you 

[Notso]

40 minutes ago, lead dispenser said:

Why would they think the dispute would be over or would be dealt with if they hadn't made any changes or fixed what was being disputed. i mean they would know if they had fixed the problem or not . if they had done I'm sure we wouldn't of heard about it 9 months later from a 1 sided post on a discord . i would almost go as far as to say the staff probably didn't even know there was a dispute otherwise they would of stopped much sooner. or fixed what was the problem . wouldn't you 

No, my understanding is RB was aware there was "A" dispute.  Over what, I am not privy to.  But there were communications in those early days/months and I would assume RB thought it was getting sorted out.  As time went by with still no money and no resolution in sight, I can only assume they decided to pull the plug.

As for the accusations of "Breach of IP", I've just learned new info that suggests its not as cut and dried as ED makes it out to be and it may go both ways in fact.  We'll see.  It reinforces my view that perhaps neither ED or RB's hands are completely clean on this and maybe they should just call it a draw and get on with it and Nick and Ron should just kiss and make up and go back to making sweet sweet money together.  

[Notso]

49 minutes ago, lead dispenser said:

i would almost go as far as to say the staff probably didn't even know there was a dispute otherwise they would of stopped much sooner. or fixed what was the problem . wouldn't you 

I don't know if ED has come out and said the A-29 module was the source of the IP breach or if that was just implied.  But RB has said that the A-29 was little more than "vaporware" with no FM and very little 3D modeling, if any,  It was certainly not even flyable at all.  And RB said they removed ALL A-29 work several months ago.  So if that IS the actual root cause of ED's issue with RB, its no longer a factor and hasn't been for a while.  I recall in an internal RB team conversation with Larry, RB's main Dev WELL before any of this drama ever broke out - I asked if I could fly the A-29 to test it out and see if I could help out on some of the development as the Strike Eagle was well on its way to being great and I had run out of things to SME on.  He laughed and said there is nothing there to test.  Its a "concept" at this point.  

So if the A-29 is ED's Raison d'etre of this dispute, its no longer a factor.  So there must be something else going on.  

[Oban]

9 minutes ago, Notso said:

No, my understanding is RB was aware there was "A" dispute.  Over what, I am not privy to.  But there were communications in those early days/months and I would assume RB thought it was getting sorted out.  As time went by with still no money and no resolution in sight, I can only assume they decided to pull the plug.

As for the accusations of "Breach of IP", I've just learned new info that suggests its not as cut and dried as ED makes it out to be and it may go both ways in fact.  We'll see.  It reinforces my view that perhaps neither ED or RB's hands are completely clean on this and maybe they should just call it a draw and get on with it and Nick and Ron should just kiss and make up and go back to making sweet sweet money together.  

More to the point, did you meet up with Nineline at Vegas yesterday?

[Notso]

20 minutes ago, Oban said:

More to the point, did you meet up with Nineline at Vegas yesterday?

Yep, I did.  Super nice guy.  We chatted for a bit.  It was nice to put a face to a name.  If it was up to us, we'd have solved the drama right then and there.  But its not up to us....  

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

3 minutes ago, Notso said:

 If it was up to us, we'd have solved the drama right then and there.  But its not up to us....  

Were it only so easy, seriously.

[afnav130]

2 hours ago, Mizzy said:

Where have YOU been, you cause trouble here every post you make without understanding anything. You found out Razbam were not paid by them going public and distorting the truth of what the dispute was really about. Can you read the first post i 

 

You do know that Notso here, was an IRL SE WSO AND he was the WSO SME for the SE correct? 

5 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

Were it only so easy, seriously.

It should be. Society has dictated otherwise. 

[Oban]

19 minutes ago, Notso said:

Yep, I did.  Super nice guy.  We chatted for a bit.  It was nice to put a face to a name.  If it was up to us, we'd have solved the drama right then and there.  But its not up to us....  

Excellent!! 100% with you on this

[Raven434th]

what happens to the f15 if we go for the store credit... does it get removed from our inventory or stays there but not get updated. 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

16 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

You do know that Notso here, was an IRL SE WSO AND he was the WSO SME for the SE correct? 

It should be. Society has dictated otherwise. 

That's irrelevant to the subject given this is a business dispute and not questions about the Strike Eagle's accuracy or inaccuracy. If he's a practicing legal expert, then that's the relevancy and not his experience as a SE WSO.

Also, yes and for good reason. Laws exist.

[afnav130]

19 minutes ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

That's irrelevant to the subject given this is a business dispute and not questions about the Strike Eagle's accuracy or inaccuracy. If he's a practicing legal expert, then that's the relevancy and not his experience as a SE WSO.

Also, yes and for good reason. Laws exist.

Disgree. About 30 years ago, everyone went lawyer happy. That is a real thing. Look at someone wrong. Lawyer. Trip over a sprinkler on someone's lawn? Lawyer. 

[Czar66]

48 minutes ago, Raven434th said:

what happens to the f15 if we go for the store credit... does it get removed from our inventory or stays there but not get updated. 

I'd bet it is the same when the free trial expires.
Removed from the module manager owned modules installation prompt. License revoked. If you keep it installed, it will warn you about unable to be authenticated and the module will be disabled.

It is a guess.

[MAXsenna]

DAMMIT!  How do you keep from embedding two posts together all the time??  Is it a time thing?

Yeah, I think if you reply twice in less than one minute, they're automatically "multi-quoted".

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

Yep, I did.  Super nice guy.  We chatted for a bit.  It was nice to put a face to a name.  If it was up to us, we'd have solved the drama right then and there.  But its not up to us....  

That's great to hear! Seems, you had a nice chat, and pretty sure the whole community would've been happy for you guys to have solved it.
Cheers!

Edit: It's more than three minutes. Maybe it's five.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[lead dispenser]

1 hour ago, Notso said:

I don't know if ED has come out and said the A-29 module was the source of the IP breach or if that was just implied.  But RB has said that the A-29 was little more than "vaporware" with no FM and very little 3D modeling, if any,  It was certainly not even flyable at all.  And RB said they removed ALL A-29 work several months ago.  So if that IS the actual root cause of ED's issue with RB, its no longer a factor and hasn't been for a while.  I recall in an internal RB team conversation with Larry, RB's main Dev WELL before any of this drama ever broke out - I asked if I could fly the A-29 to test it out and see if I could help out on some of the development as the Strike Eagle was well on its way to being great and I had run out of things to SME on.  He laughed and said there is nothing there to test.  Its a "concept" at this point.  

So if the A-29 is ED's Raison d'etre of this dispute, its no longer a factor.  So there must be something else going on.  

it would seem so,  if it was as simple as that an offer to buy buy the rights would of ended it a long time ago . i cant comment on the ip thing i've not heard or read anything on the subject 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

40 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

well he's not exactly wrong either. remember those days a good ol' knuckle sandwich lunch date would solve most problems?

 

 

While, it'd feel great for me to hurl someone I disliked through a window but it doesn't really give me actual compensation.

We need to get tax credits based on the cool factor of something we do, honestly.

[Tom Kazansky]

59 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Yeah, I think if you reply twice in less than one minute, they're automatically "multi-quoted".
...

Edit: It's more than three minutes. Maybe it's five.

@Notso

Max is correct.

It takes 5 min from the time of the first post until the consecutive posts stop beeing merged automatically.

Just tested in BN's test thread

[Notso]

20 minutes ago, Tom Kazansky said:

@Notso

Max is correct.

It takes 5 min from the time of the first post until the consecutive posts stop beeing merged automatically.

Just tested in BN's test thread

Thanks!

[MAXsenna]

Thanks @Tom Kazansky

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[BIGNEWY]

locked for moderation

-----------------

Reopened, 

some warnings handed out, treat each other with respect or you will lose your posting rights here. 

Some off topic removed also. 

 

It is obvious some in this thread are here to push an agenda or just troll, I suggest taking a step back while we wait for a resolution to the dispute. 

thank you 

 

[SkateZilla]

10 hours ago, Oban said:

Ah I guess you forgot how the community was pissed off and were blaming that the release of the Sinai map was pushed ahead of the F15E  ? 

My point here Notso, is that the seeds of discontent were already sown by certain elements within Razbam towards Eagle Dynamics, and the current situation has exasperated this tenfold.

Ima tell you right now, despite what you've read on the "Exposed" Reddit, Screenshotting discord messages that are made in heat of the moment during conversation, and then used w/o context to push a narrative for views.

You do not know the reason for the delay, and there's no point speculating about it, it had ZERO to do with the current situation, no one was p'd off or pitch forking or pointing fingers at ED over the delay. This is the narrative websites that have a habit of posting egregious stories and claims wanted to push.

Edited June 24, 2024 by SkateZilla

[SkateZilla]

6 hours ago, Notso said:

I don't know if ED has come out and said the A-29 module was the source of the IP breach or if that was just implied.  But RB has said that the A-29 was little more than "vaporware" with no FM and very little 3D modeling, if any,  It was certainly not even flyable at all.  And RB said they removed ALL A-29 work several months ago.  So if that IS the actual root cause of ED's issue with RB, its no longer a factor and hasn't been for a while.  I recall in an internal RB team conversation with Larry, RB's main Dev WELL before any of this drama ever broke out - I asked if I could fly the A-29 to test it out and see if I could help out on some of the development as the Strike Eagle was well on its way to being great and I had run out of things to SME on.  He laughed and said there is nothing there to test.  Its a "concept" at this point.  

So if the A-29 is ED's Raison d'etre of this dispute, its no longer a factor.  So there must be something else going on.  

Not to get technical, But the actual state of the A-29 likely isn't the seed. *( 3D Model, FM, Systems etc., or even if any production work had been done at all )

If I go to another party *(Say BoBo Studios LLC [It's a rando name]) and I say I will give them DCS: F-15E Source Code for a 24 Pack of Dr. Pepper, 

Once both parties agree, then it's a breach of RB IP as I used the RB IP in exchange for something of value.

It wouldn't matter if it was Monetary, Physical Items, or Digital Items. *(I.E. Data/Manuals for Said Aircraft). Once something has been agreed on, and the deal is made, it's done.

Bigger companies are facing similar issues *(which is why I keep saying it's not just a ED<->RB thing), this is par for the course, You aren't a big studio until you face at least one of these legal hurdles. *( Bungie is still under investigation for Destiny, as MS is saying they took IP that belonged to MS when they left HALO development. How long ago was destiny released?, you get my point. MS is still under investigation from several Aircraft manufacturers from the original FS2020 Lineup, it's now 2024, and they were notified during the FS2020 Beta which was in 2019, and they are still selling FS2020 with those aircraft still in their sim.)

Right now consumers are for the lack of a better term, Stuck in the Middle.
They have no say in the outcome, they have no information other than what's been made public, so it's hard to show trust in either party.

So the tree, at least for me, is basically I'm not blaming anyone,
it's a contractual dispute, let it be resolved so we can get back to and keep enjoying the Aircraft (and not Just the F-15E, all of them),
regardless of what information is public, and my position, I'm still a consumer as well, and I'm not taking any sides/camps or protecting this company over that company, there's no point to backing anyone, as it has no bearing on the legal proceedings, and all it does is promote segregation within the community *(ED backers vs RB backers), Ironically, none of the backers have any information that prove either camp is right. Yes, ED withheld payments due to what they stated to be an IP breach, it's not illegal, and done by every company at one point or another.), That's literally the only thing that's been confirmed. Everything else is heresy. *(belief or opinion).

RB : I feel for them, working several months without being paid, its tough.
I've been through similar things with other studio paths. ( I waited a year to get paid for some scenes I rendered ).
I've also had ad revenue and donations with held for several months, for wearing a T-Shirt w/ a logo on it during a live stream.

ED: I understand as a business, they have the right to protect their IP.

Like I said, consumers are stuck in the middle, it's like being 5 yrs old and Mom and Dad are arguing about money, being 5 yrs old, we don't have a clue what they are talking about.

Edited June 24, 2024 by SkateZilla

[BMO]

25 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

Like I said, consumers are stuck in the middle, it's like being 5 yrs old and Mom and Dad are arguing about money, being 5 yrs old, we don't have a clue what they are talking about.

The only difference is that the customers are financing both. If the customers have no trust anymore they will stop giving money.

39 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

Ima tell you right now, despite what you've read on the "Exposed" Reddit, Screenshotting discord messages that are made in heat of the moment during conversation, and then used w/o context to push a narrative for views.

even if some is out of context the optic is really really bad. not paying your bigger 3rd partie dev´s for a long time - for whatever reason. then releasing half baked modules or just a ton of them already looks a bit strange.

+ knowing (it´s publicly available information) that ED is giving a lot of money to nick greys fighter collection which also had it´s trouble the last years makes it VERY EASY to question ED financial state.

 

I will happily start trusting ED again and believe in the future of DCS as soon as theres proof that it´s a healty thing again. For me that would mean cleaning up year long dev debts, long awaited core improvements etc. Not the current live-support like existence.

 

I dont think the community is all against you, we all want DCS to become great. Now it´s on you guys to regain that trust thats needed for it.

Best of luck.

[ustio]

I just hope a peaceful resolution. I'm not an expert in law, but I just don't see how realitically ED can take Razbam to court. And even if they win the court, I don't see how ED can realistically obtain the source code if RB just went nuclear. Like the Owner is in Ecuador, Radar dev is in France, with other dev around the world 

 

Nobody win if this is taken to court

Edited June 24, 2024 by ustio