waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Oban]

32 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

All I’m saying is they feel RB did something bad enough to warrant withholding pay, but not bad enough to not/stop selling their work.

Are they in full rights to do that legally? Idk, probably. Does it seem right to do that morally/ethically? People can draw their own opinions on that. 

doesn't matter what feels ethical/morally, it's the fine print in the contract.

Electric cars and mobile phones call for the mining of lithium, for their batteries, which have been proven to be mined by children according to amnesty international, but people still by them, is that ethically and morally the right thing to do? 

[JuiceIsLoose]

2 minutes ago, Oban said:

doesn't matter what feels ethical/morally, it's the fine print in the contract.

Electric cars and mobile phones call for the mining of lithium, for their batteries, which have been proven to be mined by children according to amnesty international, but people still by them, is that ethically and morally the right thing to do? 

I honestly do not understand your point. So are you saying ED must, contractually, sell the F-15E while also, contractually, not pay RB? Because they have no other choice?

[Oban]

8 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

I honestly do not understand your point. So are you saying ED must, contractually, sell the F-15E while also, contractually, not pay RB? Because they have no other choice?

The dispute is not about the module.The dispute is allegedly about the business practice and the alleged breach of contract between the 2 parties,

If ED decide to remove the F15E along with all the other Razbam modules, they're in breach of contract, that product was delivered to ED from razbam, whether it's Early access or not.

You know that there's several other Razbam products, so why single out the F15E? The same company also do the South Atlantic map, and that IS getting updated.

You can continue to display your displeasure at their sales and marketing all you want, unless you're privy to the terms and conditions, then for ED it's business as usual until legally instructed otherwise. There's not much more to understand.

[JuiceIsLoose]

14 minutes ago, Oban said:

The dispute is not about the module.The dispute is allegedly about the business practice and the alleged breach of contract between the 2 parties,

If ED decide to remove the F15E along with all the other Razbam modules, they're in breach of contract, that product was delivered to ED from razbam, whether it's Early access or not.

You know that there's several other Razbam products, so why single out the F15E? The same company also do the South Atlantic map, and that IS getting updated.

You can continue to display your displeasure at their sales and marketing all you want, unless you're privy to the terms and conditions, then for ED it's business as usual until legally instructed otherwise. There's not much more to understand.

So you’re saying them removing the modules from sale is a breach of contract? But not paying them their portion of sales is then not breach of contract? Wild contract. 

[Oban]

2 minutes ago, JuiceIsLoose said:

So you’re saying them removing the modules from sale is a breach of contract? But not paying them their portion of sales is then not breach of contract? Wild contract. 

Indeed, and contracts which none here are in the either companies legal teams. Does is make things better ? no it doesn't, but it has been epxlained that it's all a legal matter now, and that isn't likely to change anytime soon.

As they stand, all Razbam modules ARE working, even the F15E  A/A radar ( there's a working solution for those that wish to continue using it)..

[MustangSally]

Here we go....doesn't anyone read the first post?

[brandiment]

Apparently not, they would rather just come on here and yell at the internet about the issue at hand as they interpret it, disregarding the fact that a lot of the proceedings are being handled behind the scenes and out of sight of the public for legal reasons. I get it, everyone is frustrated with the situation, they feel that they got scammed out of a product that they bought knowing it was not fully finished yet. I my self am rather displeased with the current state of events. However, there is nothing that we the consumer can really do besides warn potential buyers of RAZBAM products about the current ongoing litigation and issues between the two companies. This is an issue between those two entities and the consumer just happens to be caught in the crossfire. I bought the F-15E hoping it would be a great airframe to fly, it still is a great air frame to fly. However there are other airframes to enjoy and mods to help fix the F-15E if you choose to go that route. The ED team is also working to try and bring functionality back to it from there end in what ever way they can. We could sit here and point fingers and call either party the bad guy while tearing ourselves apart due to differing opinions or ideals. Or we could accept the situation at hand, hope for a speedy resolve and either adapt and over come, fly another airframe, or just take a hiatus in the mean time. Either way the finger pointing and the arguing isn't going to do nothing but lead to further anger and outrage.

[Bosun]

I'm learning that this forum as just as many airchair lawyers as it does armchair generals. 

I propose a new rule.

If you want to comment on what ED or RB should or should not do - 

You must cite the relevant clauses within their contract while also citing your legal authority and permission to share those clauses publicly, in order to have your comment be valid.

If you want to share that you're upset - go for it.  But that doesn't change how the legal case will progress unless you're the actual lawyer handling the case.

[krazyj]

Not sure why people are hating on ED here, their contract is with the entity RB. it has been RBs own decision to stop paying their devs. 

if RB was interested in solving this, they could have continued dev albeit on a lower capacity and once resolved the update would be ready to be sent out immediately after. 

not paying their contractors is 100% a RB decision. 

[Hammer1-1]

3 minutes ago, krazyj said:

Not sure why people are hating on ED here, their contract is with the entity RB. it has been RBs own decision to stop paying their devs. 

if RB was interested in solving this, they could have continued dev albeit on a lower capacity and once resolved the update would be ready to be sent out immediately after. 

not paying their contractors is 100% a RB decision. 

Dont be pushing no methods on how contracts work, people around these here parts are experts in the law and they know better than the rest of us. Honestly this topic should rest, its a self induced lobotomy every time I open this thread up.

[YoYo]

I wonder if today's Patch will solve the RADAR problem.

Does anyone know if ED took care of the problem and solved it?

[BIGNEWY]

20 minutes ago, YoYo said:

I wonder if today's Patch will solve the RADAR problem.

Does anyone know if ED took care of the problem and solved it?

please wait for change logs. 

thank you

[YoYo]

11 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

please wait for change logs. 

thank you

Surprise? This sounds promising!

[HWasp]

3 hours ago, krazyj said:

Not sure why people are hating on ED here, their contract is with the entity RB. it has been RBs own decision to stop paying their devs. 

if RB was interested in solving this, they could have continued dev albeit on a lower capacity and once resolved the update would be ready to be sent out immediately after. 

not paying their contractors is 100% a RB decision. 

In your expert opinion, where should RB, as a company, generate the revenue to pay their employees in the current situation? Start developing for another platform quickly? Lemonade stand? Sell illegal substances on the street?

Every company like that has cash reserves to pay everybody for years, right? 

[Gizmo03]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb HWasp:

Every company like that has cash reserves to pay everybody for years, right? 

Not really for years but a financial reserve for a defined period? Yes - at least a good company has something like this. It's part of a so called business plan.
And if you don't have something like this: here in this thread and subforum you can see a good example of what happens.

[HWasp]

10 minutes ago, Gizmo03 said:

Not really for years but a financial reserve for a defined period? Yes - at least a good company has something like this. It's part of a so called business plan.
And if you don't have something like this: here in this thread and subforum you can see a good example of what happens.

Ok, so a good company has the cash reserves to contiue to pay all employees for over a year... I wonder how many of these good companies exist in the real world

[stonewall197922]

10 часов назад, HWasp сказал:

Ok, so a good company has the cash reserves to contiue to pay all employees for over a year... I wonder how many of these good companies exist in the real world

Good company diversifies risks. And if not paid for a long period, will  bring the case to court. Only if they are sure its not their fault.

Edited July 4 by stonewall197922

[felixx75]

Cool, more assumptions, conjecture and speculation 

[BIGNEWY]

Folks its not helpful second guessing how private companies should be run. We can only be patient and wait for a resolution. 

thank you 

[Gizmo03]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb HWasp:

I wonder how many of these good companies exist in the real world

I've no clue about that - but i think not just a few.

I'm no expert but just someone reading the forum here - not more and the following is just my point of view.
A couple of weeks ago the rumors of HB not getting paid for a year were somehow confirmed in a very questionable way - by unauthorized published private corresponence. Maybe it was just a fake - i don't know. I just saw it.
Did we notice when that happend? No - everything was fine for us because we didn't know - so, no worries.
Where are they now?
After raising the bars in DCS with their Tomcat they finished their 2 modules and released a second version of their Tomcat - as promised. They made partnership with another 3rd party dev. to bring a Gen 4+ aircraft (the EF Typhoon) to DCS in the future and raising the bars again with their freshly released Phantom for which they are working on other different versions. Additionally to that they have another module (A-6E) in the pipeline.
Now RB didn't get paid for one year.
Did we notice when that happend? Hell YES. Since three month everyone who likes their modules is really worried. And there are a couple of threads here full of speculations.
Where are they now?
They stoped working on their products and the support, went public with the issue, blamed ED for not paying them and most probably they went to court. Also they left their customers behind because it's not yet clear what will happen to their modules and if the F-15E will see a final release at all.

Do you see a difference between these two companies? Could it be that one of them is a good one - probably with a solid financial plan and one not?

Just my opinion but anyway - i think this whole conversation will be deleted soon from this thread (for understandable reasons).

Edited July 4 by Gizmo03

[BigBorner]

2 hours ago, HWasp said:

Ok, so a good company has the cash reserves to contiue to pay all employees for over a year... I wonder how many of these good companies exist in the real world

15 years consulting here. 
They’re all insane. 

[n0pe]

Objective Truths which are not matters of opinion or open to debate, vs Opinions...ugh. 

We don't know the true reasons and might never, so opinions should be kept quiet until the facts are known. Many people cannot decipher the difference between fact or fiction and spout opinions as truths.... SH*T sticks, don't be a part of it. 

You don't know WHY it is still up for sale, it could be there as ED owns the code as part of the contract, and they WILL take over any future development (once resource has been allocated) and may already be doing it. Saying you cannot believe it is still on sale on the site because of the opinions you have read is just total nonsense. It is completely your choice to buy or not to buy, with any product. It can happen with anything, anywhere and just because you paid money for it doesn't mean you will get what you paid for. Its up to you as a consumer to do your own research and make a decision. 

Business is complicated, and as its been said before, mostly you never hear about the problems. If you did you would probably never buy a car or a mobile phone ever again. We are only aware of this situation because of someone's momentarily hot headed decision to air their dirty laundry. Whatever the reasons behind doing it, we have zero business in knowing why, or the reasons behind them. We are not written into the contract so have zero to do with any of it. I am hopeful that if ED could not maintain the F15(or any other Razbam module) if it all went south, they would have already removed it from the store to protect themselves from any future fallout...That's my non-fact based opinion(Whether you asked for it or not lol). 

 

[krazyj]

4 hours ago, HWasp said:

In your expert opinion, where should RB, as a company, generate the revenue to pay their employees in the current situation? Start developing for another platform quickly? Lemonade stand? Sell illegal substances on the street?

Every company like that has cash reserves to pay everybody for years, right? 

 A company should have reserves yes, for a period depending on the company revenue and expenses its normal. How long a period is based on the type of activity but for some companies 12-24 months is not considered unusual . plenty of products go through a development phase, you think people worked for free ? 

the other option is to have devs to on minimal time and let them perform other jobs. 

Again as I read it the situation is entirely brought on by RB themselves. 

[Capn kamikaze]

5 hours ago, krazyj said:

 A company should have reserves yes, for a period depending on the company revenue and expenses its normal. How long a period is based on the type of activity but for some companies 12-24 months is not considered unusual . plenty of products go through a development phase, you think people worked for free ? 

the other option is to have devs to on minimal time and let them perform other jobs. 

Again as I read it the situation is entirely brought on by RB themselves. 

This smells like they've not budgeted properly for the development of any of the modules, using the latest release to pay for developing and finishing the previous one, and that's only one module under-performing financially or one previous module that was way more work than they anticipated sucking up the dev time away from a grinding halt.

It's sad, frankly Razbam can clearly NOT be trusted, so their future sales are screwed, I know I certainly won't be buying anything with their name on it again, if they even survive this omni-shammbles of a situation.

[HWasp]

6 hours ago, krazyj said:

 A company should have reserves yes, for a period depending on the company revenue and expenses its normal. How long a period is based on the type of activity but for some companies 12-24 months is not considered unusual . plenty of products go through a development phase, you think people worked for free ? 

the other option is to have devs to on minimal time and let them perform other jobs. 

Again as I read it the situation is entirely brought on by RB themselves. 

That's funny because 2020 was just 4 years ago, seems like already completely forgotten. Billion dollar airlines and other businesses related to tourism and travel started to lay off people or send them on unpaid leaves much sooner than that.

Shame, they all did not have 12-24 months of reserves for unplanned emergencies... 

I think, you have no idea, what you are talking about.