Force trim and early access

[av8orDave]

Today's newsletter seems to indicate that force trim is an after-early-access-launch feature. Is this accurate? Seems like kind of a major thing to not have working at launch.

[Yurgon]

It says "Basic trim system and AI helper" for Early Access. I'd assume this is the force trim we're used to from other helicopters. I know next to nothing about the Chinook, but I wouldn't be surprised if it has advanced trim functions/modes that are more complicated to implement (and more complicated to learn).

If it lacked force trim (be it via force trim release or by a "beep trim" hat like in fixed wing aircraft) that would render it pretty much useless for most virtual pilots. Can't imagine it'll come out like that.

Edited June 21, 2024 by Yurgon

[Thump]

This module is hilariously rushed.  Viper 2.0

[av8orDave]

8 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

It says "Basic trim system and AI helper" for Early Access. I'd assume this is the force trim we're used to from other helicopters. I know next to nothing about the Chinook, but I wouldn't be surprised if it has advanced trim functions/modes that are more complicated to implement (and more complicated to learn).

If it lacked force trim (be it via force trim release or by a "beep trim" hat like in fixed wing aircraft) that would render it pretty much useless for most virtual pilots. Can't imagine it'll come out like that.

 

Maybe we can get some clarification from @BIGNEWY? The specific verbiage in the newsletter is that the after-early access release features include "DAFCS trim system and force trim."

I agree that without force trim, a helicopter is almost useless.

[Snappy]

No force trim for a helicopter, not even training missions. This has got to be a joke to put it into sale already, though I know its not a joke .

[CaptJodan]

I hope more clarification would come on this as well.  I saw this and was deeply concerned about F-16 release Mk 2.  I can understand not having all the autopilot functions in at launch or some of the other features, but no force trim?  And what is covered by "basic trim"?  

I'd trade the AI helper out for later access in exchange for proper trimming (yes, I know this isn't how development works).  I'm kinda baffled by this and would like further information on how exactly this is going to work.  

[Talisman_VR]

I must admit that I am concerned about this too.  I just hope that we can get some clarification as soon as possible to hopefully put our minds at ease.

I use a force feedback cyclic/joystick and have a concern about how force feedback will be implemented in this regard for early access.

It would be very helpful if any clarification from the developers on this topic could also cover the force feedback aspects associated with this issue.

Happy landings,

Talisman 

Edited June 21, 2024 by Talisman_VR

[sorcer3r]

5 hours ago, Thump said:

This module is hilariously rushed.  Viper 2.0

hm on the other hand we did not expect 6DOF cockpit already as early access feature... right?

[inexus]

1 hour ago, sorcer3r said:

hm on the other hand we did not expect 6DOF cockpit already as early access feature... right?

AND 'with mouse interactive control' .... sure seems like they tried hard to make up some bullet points

 

No videos, nothing that showcases what the helo will be capable of for the EA release but just asking people to buy it. Sorry not this time ED. 

[shagrat]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb inexus:

(...) just asking people to buy it. Sorry not this time ED. 

Offering to safe some money through pre-order or early access purchase?

[Snappy]

13 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Offering to safe some money through pre-order or early access purchase?

No thanks, I think pre-order or EA discount or not , they should offer a product that clears a minimum bar of functionality and this is not it. 

Its simply a bad trend. I'm exaggerating now, but at some point they may offer just a blender 3d model , for 35% off. Huge savings, but the actual functioning flyable plane may come at an undefined point in the future. And lets be real here, given EDs track record, we know that EA is very very vaguely defined time-wise and many of their products are still lacking critical components years after being available for sale.

They continue to give more or less the same amount of EA / preorder discount but for less and less basic features available at release in return.The opposite of what the 3rd party developers are doing lately , with F-4E and Kiowa shipping somwhere between feature-rich to almost complete.

Edited June 22, 2024 by Snappy

[shagrat]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Snappy:

No thanks, I think pre-order or EA discount or not , they should offer a product that clears a minimum bar of functionality and this is not it. 

Its simply a bad trend. I'm exaggerating now, but at some point they may offer just a blender 3d model , for 35% off. Huge savings, but the actual functioning flyable plane may come at an undefined point in the future. And lets be real here, given EDs track record, we know that EA is very very vaguely defined time-wise and many of their products are still lacking critical components years after being available for sale.

They continue to give more or less the same amount of EA/-preorder discount but for less and less basic features available at release in return.

 

No need to rant. You can always NOT buy, like in every store in the world...

That's how a store works. Offering something... and if you don't like the offer, you need to decide if you buy it, or pass, until you find something that suits you.

Do you go around shops in your town and complain about all the stuff they offer, that you don't like to buy?

Edit: and the release(!) is still years away. The early access phase is next, and that's what they deliver for early access. So of course it is incomplete! That's why it's called "early access".

Edited June 22, 2024 by shagrat

[shagrat]

Btw. I am confident "basic trim" is meant as opposed to "Advanced trim system of the real helicopter, that has hovering assist modes and other highly advanced stuff, like the Apache's hold modes, that took a couple updates during the early access phase to be implemented".

Just speculating, here.

[Hotdognz]

8 minutes ago, shagrat said:

No need to rant. You can always NOT buy, like in every store in the world...

That's how a store works. Offering something... and if you don't like the offer, you need to decide if you buy it, or pass, until you find something that suits you.

Do you go around shops in your town and complain about all the stuff they offer, that you don't like to buy?

Edit: and the release(!) is still years away. The early access phase is next, and that's what they deliver for early access. So of course it is incomplete! That's why it's called "early access".

 

I would hardly call Snappy post a rant, everyone knows EDs early access program, we don't need reminding about its meaning and a lot of us hear are happy to get EA and have supported it for many years and id say some of that may even pay your wage unless you work for free,  its just the content is getting less and less.

[LuseKofte]

Funny really. I like things to be finished too when buying. 
But I rather see what it can do before I lie a judgement on it. We all witness real problems in this world, come on, this is not one of them. 
 

[shagrat]

vor 51 Minuten schrieb Hotdognz:

I would hardly call Snappy post a rant, everyone knows EDs early access program, we don't need reminding about its meaning and a lot of us hear are happy to get EA and have supported it for many years and id say some of that may even pay your wage unless you work for free,  its just the content is getting less and less.

Huh? My job pays my wages.

I am a normal customer, when it comes to buying DCS modules.

And what triggered that reminder, was the "at release" comment, which hinted at the usual perception, that early access, equals release and thus claims to a certain feature set, necessarily implemented.

As i said, my educated guess is, they will have trim at early access, but not the sophisticated real life features.

Force Feedback support would be a nice to have, but I remember a time, where non of the modules had even basic FFB support and only in the recent years were new FFB sticks available, usually home made "3D print prototype" turned small business.

It took some effort for ED to get their hands on old working MS FFB-sticks etc. to even be able to develop/test FFB implementation.

I hope they do have basic FFB support on early access, though.

Worst case I need to use the Hardware "Force Trim Release" Emulation.

 

[Snappy]

26 minutes ago, shagrat said:

Huh? My job pays my wages.

I am a normal customer, when it comes to buying DCS modules.

And what triggered that reminder, was the "at release" comment, which hinted at the usual perception, that early access, equals release and thus claims to a certain feature set, necessarily implemented.

As i said, my educated guess is, they will have trim at early access, but not the sophisticated real life features.

Force Feedback support would be a nice to have, but I remember a time, where non of the modules had even basic FFB support and only in the recent years were new FFB sticks available, usually home made "3D print prototype" turned small business.

It took some effort for ED to get their hands on old working MS FFB-sticks etc. to even be able to develop/test FFB implementation.

I hope they do have basic FFB support on early access, though.

Worst case I need to use the Hardware "Force Trim Release" Emulation.

 

 

Well , I thought it was clear that I meant "release" in a figurative sense, as in "being made available for use", not in the litteral "out of EA, now official release".

Consider it not a rant, but a feedback regarding EDs apparently contineously reducing mininum bar for EA . And btw its not like the discount gets ever larger simulteanously.

If you encountered a product in a store that you considered defective and/or fundamentally incomplete / unfit for purchase of course you can tell the store owner that.
Its a called customer feedback. And please, before you now  say, "you re not a customer, because you aren't buying it" , again "customer" in a more figurative sense.

I was a previous customer in that store and I may come back in the future , so the store owner may or may not be interested in my feedback if he wants to keep me as a customer.

But each to their own, I for sure won't buy it in the now announced feature-state.

Edited June 22, 2024 by Snappy

[LuseKofte]

It is early access. They will give a broader access and they will have serious reports of problems. They do not need other kind of support than our honest opinion on a product we actually spent time in. 
In their opinion the module is in a state they find it ready for such a test. 
If you do not have that faith in a developer you should not take part in early access. In fact my guesses is ED do not wish you to buy early access. 
I have a VP force ffb base , if fb is not supported at release. I am not sure how my stick will respond. If it respond when not assigned to a craft I am good. Then it is a very accurate stick. 
I do not call many statements concerns.  I like to call it something else. But I get banned if I say it

[Guest]

On 6/22/2024 at 3:35 AM, davidrbarnette said:

Today's newsletter seems to indicate that force trim is an after-early-access-launch feature. Is this accurate? Seems like kind of a major thing to not have working at launch.

I wonder if ED would consider a new payment model:

Instead of giving discounts for early access, they list all of the features that they have on their roadmap, and appropriate a cost to each additional feature, that isn't available on launch.

So you might pay 50% up front for the 'launch' version, then, as each one is available; $10 for Force Trim, $10 for Multicrew gunners with various gun models, $10 for working winches and slings etc...

So we would still get our hands on the model early if we wanted, and they could spread their income across the life of the module.

[Watari]

So basic trim means what please?

Just a basic trim like an mi8 or huey have? 

Auto-hover is an different thing. 

So stabilization channels will work?

[BIGNEWY]

At early access launch the trim will work in a basic way, move it to desired position, press button and this becomes centre. Its a pretty standard concept for trim. 
Proper trim using dafcs modes will be added later during early access development. 

thank you 

[MAXsenna]

At early access launch the trim will work in a basic way, move it to desired position, press button and this becomes centre. Its a pretty standard concept for trim. 
Proper trim using dafcs modes will be added later during early access development. 
thank you 

Thanks!
And FFB?

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[av8orDave]

30 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

At early access launch the trim will work in a basic way, move it to desired position, press button and this becomes centre. Its a pretty standard concept for trim. 
Proper trim using dafcs modes will be added later during early access development. 

thank you 

Perfect! Thank you for the response. Count me in for early access.

[BIGNEWY]

3 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

Perfect! Thank you for the response. Count me in for early access.

great to hear, it is going to be a lot of fun, of course not everyone enjoys early access, we understand that, but it is user feedback and reports that help us make the product better during the development phase so thank you. 

 

[Caveman655]

49 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

At early access launch the trim will work in a basic way, move it to desired position, press button and this becomes centre. Its a pretty standard concept for trim. 
Proper trim using dafcs modes will be added later during early access development. 

thank you 

Does this also apply to the night vision? That seemed like a weird thing to leave out of EA, but wouldn't be bad if we at least get some basic optics.