Oculus Rift and DCS World Discussion

[Maximus_G]

So, 2.5k displays of appropriate size are in mass production now.

http://connect.dpreview.com/post/4993132187/zte-announces-nubia-z7

[metalnwood]

That display, 2560x1440 resolution has been rumoured for the CV1 for quite some time, it's the next logical step from 1920x1080

[ReviZorro]

Early Oculus Rift DK2 Unboxing - http://www.roadtovr.com/early-oculus-rift-dk2-unboxing/

[wasyl00]

Early Oculus Rift DK2 Unboxing - http://www.roadtovr.com/early-oculus-rift-dk2-unboxing/

 

Any day now...lol

[TOYKILLA]

Cant wait :-)

[Chivas]

Below is the understatement of the year. Whats even worse the author says very little about the experience. :(

 

E3 2014: DCS, The DK2 Enabled Flight Sim that Flew Under the RADAR

 

http://www.roadtovr.com/e3-2014/

[cichlidfan]

Below is the understatement of the year. Whats even worse the author says very little about the experience. :(

 

E3 2014: DCS, The DK2 Enabled Flight Sim that Flew Under the RADAR

 

http://www.roadtovr.com/e3-2014/

 

Kevin needs a proofreader.

[zahry]

Kevin needs a proofreader.

"- They so far sadly had no ground targets, but it was possible to see the flight model offered a new level of immersion" - oh dear - yes there are ground targets - and are visible on any monitor - unfortunately not on a rift due to low angular resolution (equal to monitor set to 320x200). They should be trying the rift on FC1 LOMAC or older games - the old games from end of nineties seems just like made for rift and actually look pretty good on it (you can't notice much loss of detail).

 

After seeing Elite: Dangerous (my worst disappointment in long time) i'm coming to conclusion that the only way how to make game playable on rift is to completely ruin it - ie. make the game shallow and exchange everything that has been achieved in past 15-20 years for cheap 3d effect. I sincerely hope ED won't get under pressure to ruin the DCS World in the same way frontier did. I hope in future there will be clearly divided titles for PC and Rift titles.

 

Edit: it would be actually good idea to ask ED to remaster the original LOMAC for rift instead of trying to fit a square peg into rounded hole

Edited July 13, 2014 by zahry

[latearrival]

Elite: Dangerous (my worst disappointment in long time)

I'm looking forward to playing DCS and Elite Dangerous when my DK2 arrives. Why was Elite so disappointing for you?

[zahry]

I'm looking forward to playing DCS and Elite Dangerous when my DK2 arrives. Why was Elite so disappointing for you?

If you will love the Elite: Dangerous on Oculus for exactly the same reasons why it completely ruined it for PC.

 

I was expecting something in style of X3: Rebirth - instead everything is big, chunky with focus on keeping the detail low and everything sooo simple (not in a good way), all the fonts are over sized so everything can be easily recognized on Wide FoV and low resolution. The cockpits, all systems and even dialogs are so simple that's feels like they are assuming everybody is completely dumb or blind.

 

On PC monitor it feels incredibly shallow and cheap (imagine playing iphone game on PC). Sure - it will make the rift experience excellent and whoever is on the Oculus bandwagon will have a great time because of the 3D effect but I wouldn't advertised it as a PC title, spectacular, awe inspiring or beautiful because it is none of it ... it is a rift title with all the consequences

Edited July 14, 2014 by zahry

[Burner_Tbird2]

If you will love the Elite: Dangerous on Oculus for exactly the same reasons why it completely ruined it for PC.

 

I was expecting something in style of X3: Rebirth - instead everything is big, chunky with focus on keeping the detail low and everything sooo simple (not in a good way), all the fonts are over sized so everything can be easily recognized on Wide FoV and low resolution. The cockpits, all systems and even dialogs are so simple that's feels like they are assuming everybody is completely dumb or blind.

 

On PC monitor it feels incredibly shallow and cheap (imagine playing iphone game on PC). Sure - it will make the rift experience excellent and whoever is on the Oculus bandwagon will have a great time because of the 3D effect but I wouldn't advertised it as a PC title, spectacular, awe inspiring or beautiful because it is none of it ... it is a rift title with all the consequences

 

It will have 100B star systems and 400B stars. All procedurally generated and unique. Here's their latest video of a main sequence star.

 

 

Say what you will about art style and interface, elite isn't a simple game.

 

Art style is following current VR resolution capabilities. Once those capabilities improve we'll quickly return to more engaging UI.

 

Looking forward to CV1

[bongodriver]

ignore zahry, he is obviously on an anti oculus crusade.

[Chivas]

ignore zahry, he is obviously on an anti oculus crusade.

 

I agree, he's definitely made that obvious. I don't think anybody believes any of the prototypes will be perfect, otherwise there would be no need for prototypes. Basing such a negative opinion on prototypes is ridiculous. The developers seem to be in no hurry to develop the consumer version until they get most of it right. That said even the first consumer version could have issues like spotting distant dots. I already have that problem, on a good monitor, but that was easily solved by winging with folks who can see the dots :).

[zahry]

ignore zahry, he is obviously on an anti oculus crusade.

sorry for not jumping on the band wagon and joining the delusional ranks.

 

Sad fact is that the laudest screamers and oculus thumpers have very limited technical knowledge, no clue what is going on with VR and 3D and just parroting the official propaganda. Go and get the Oculus and prove me wrong - stop living in a fantasy. Or just start "Oculus Rift worship" thread if you don't like the facts. This thread is about how DCS World could work with Oculus device - not about supporting Oculus personally. And things won't improve if you'll keep living in a lalala land.

 

As for VR capabilities - oculus even in CV1 speculative version is still 15 years behind PC gaming with incredibly poor angular resolution with exactly the same image quality as VR920 back in 2008 - if DCS will support Rift they will have to take into account that. And for anybody who want to say oculus have bigger FoV - yes, and that's exactly why the resolution looks so bad - it has few extra pixels over VR920 but those are smeared across much bigger area - are you seriously expecting EVERYBODY should be forced to accept the lowest standard and halt all progress and development just because of one gadget some people might buy? Really?!?

Edited July 14, 2014 by zahry

[KaspeR32]

sorry for not jumping on the band wagon and joining the delusional ranks.

 

 

You really must be the delusional one. Who cares if people don't understand the tech behind the rift? It's all about the experience, and you don't need a masters degree to enjoy the experience with the rift. I have been flying around in Outerra with the DK1 and the MiG-29 for over a month now, and the cock-pit is nowhere near as pretty as DCS 6DoF pits. It is the single most immersive experience I've had, anywhere, when it comes to flying and feeling like you're there, IN the cockpit.

 

So, I and many other are excited to see what can be done with DCS and DK2/CV1. To sit there and say it's old tech and blah blah blah means nothing. If YOU don't enjoy the experience with the Rift and DCS or any other flight sim, that really sucks for you. But don't say people CAN'T enjoy the experience because you can't.

 

I do appreciate every point of view but you seem to be speaking for everyone when you say things like we're delusional because we had an awesome experience with the Rift.

[Razi]

I do appreciate every point of view but you seem to be speaking for everyone when you say things like we're delusional because we had an awesome experience with the Rift.

 

Once understood, his actual argument isn't as absurd as his posts suggest.

 

He seems to be primarily concerned with how the Rift might affect development of non-Rift PC titles. He is afraid that PC titles will be developed for the Rift first, non-Rift second, thereby giving the non-Rift market a second-rate experience. He cites Elite: Dangerous as an example:

 

If you will love the Elite: Dangerous on Oculus for exactly the same reasons why it completely ruined it for PC .... I wouldn't advertised it as a PC title, spectacular, awe inspiring or beautiful because it is none of it ... it is a rift title with all the consequences

 

P.S. I'm only attempting to de-escalate due to a misunderstanding. If you have an opinion on his argument, don't reply to me please.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Razi

[Cowboy10uk]

Zahry, mate your company makes some great visuals, I'm certainly not gonna take away from that, but unfortunately not that many of us have the space or the money to get the sort of visual setup you guys sell.

 

That's why the RIFT with all it's faults is currently the best choice for most of us. I don't think it's got much to do with blind faith or not understanding the technology but more of the fact that it takes us very little space and is relatively cheap.

 

Ok at the moment the visuals are not great, it has quite bad resolution and the head tracking lags and quite often locks up. However over time these will improve and it still gives the best sense of immersion a general home user like the majority of us here can hope for.

 

If there is something as cheap, that takes up as little room and provides me with the same sense of immersion then please, let me know, because I'm intrested. I couldn't give two hoots about branding and propaganda, I'm just a simple simmer with very limited space, trying to get the best possibly immersive experience. That's all I want, immersion.

 

Cowboy10uk

[bongodriver]

sorry for not jumping on the band wagon and joining the delusional ranks.

 

Sad fact is that the laudest screamers and oculus thumpers have very limited technical knowledge, no clue what is going on with VR and 3D and just parroting the official propaganda. Go and get the Oculus and prove me wrong - stop living in a fantasy. Or just start "Oculus Rift worship" thread if you don't like the facts. This thread is about how DCS World could work with Oculus device - not about supporting Oculus personally. And things won't improve if you'll keep living in a lalala land.

 

As for VR capabilities - oculus even in CV1 speculative version is still 15 years behind PC gaming with incredibly poor angular resolution with exactly the same image quality as VR920 back in 2008 - if DCS will support Rift they will have to take into account that. And for anybody who want to say oculus have bigger FoV - yes, and that's exactly why the resolution looks so bad - it has few extra pixels over VR920 but those are smeared across much bigger area - are you seriously expecting EVERYBODY should be forced to accept the lowest standard and halt all progress and development just because of one gadget some people might buy? Really?!?

 

No, the sad fact is simply that VR is putting your nose out of joint because you are a seller of alternate technology which is going to suffer badly because it is massively limited and frankly inferior.

[hansangb]

Look, I have DK1. It is low res. It's almost not playable. It's not even CLOSE to what you get on a monitor. But it does have immersion going for it. So Zahry has a point. Maybe to a fault - since resolution is not the end all, be all. But I'm *MORE* concerned about not knowing where my hands are. And how to operate the MFDs. Not everything can be done via HOTAS. Otherwise, real jets wouldn't have a cockpit display! I tried motion tracking devices and the simply do not have the accuracy and speed necessary. And if you say "peek out of the bottom of the Rift" you've just blown your immersion story.

 

I see great promise here and I think technology will catch up. After all, we only see HD in a very small spot with our eyes. What we think is HD is really just our brain tricking us into thinking it's HD.

[Chivas]

This time huge amounts of people seem to be blown away by the VR experience even with low detail visuals. So its obviously not all about some aspects of the visual quality. Groups are organizing to fund, develop ,and create VR hardware/software in unheard of numbers. The VR hardware itself will be relatively cheap. The only major problem I see is the high cost of the graphics card and system that will probably be necessary for the best experience. This could cause a bump in the road to the acceptance of VR, but once that levels out the skies the limit. Zahry will be lost in the wilderness for a short time, while tech takes a popular detour, but the roads will eventually connect, and all will be well. :)

[metalnwood]

But I'm *MORE* concerned about not knowing where my hands are. And how to operate the MFDs. Not everything can be done via HOTAS. Otherwise, real jets wouldn't have a cockpit display! .

 

I agree that the first incarnation might not be great for reading some of those small displays. I don't see much of an issue if there is an in game mouse that works well in the rift so I can use the MFD like that in the future. Certainly not as good as using the MFD on the touchscreen but if the rest of the experience is worth more than having to use a mouse for MFD's then it's an OK tradeoff.

 

I have said it before though, I like flight sims. Since the A10 came out it has been my most used sim because I get the most enjoyment from it. I don't have any allegiance to it though so if DK2 comes out and I get more enjoyment flying in the swiss alps in a glider with a feeling of actually being there then thats what I will be doing.

 

The rift will work better in some cases than others, I think it's clear to most that the first iteration will not be near perfection for complex cockpits with lots of small text and little dots to look at on the horizon. On the other hand, I have done my fair share of summing where I don't need to look at complex pits and small dots on the horizon.

 

DCS is my current flight sim fad but the rift could change that if I get more enjoyment in less complex civ aircraft with a better sense of flying, I know the best experience on day 1 will not be in the a10 but thats where the technology is starting, not ending.

[blksolo]

I think DK2 will help with a lot of the problems people are having reading the MFD's because you will have the ability to lean in. I have 20/20 vision and I still have to lean in to read some of the finer things in the cockpit on my monitor.

[Kuky]

I would definitely not say that VR helmet is better then full blown projection... far from it. Lets be honest here, the only good thing VR has is much lower price and space it requires ;)

 

VR is alright, if you are just using HOTAS, with no peripherials, even using mouse to press buttons in game is not that good because your perception of where you are clicking in game (distances etc) are not the same as what you will be doing with your hands (to have to keep reaching the mouse)

 

I can see lot of people getting the CV of the rift (probably me included) then when novelty wears off, and we actually have to fight and press buttons in cockpits etc... we'll start to get anoyed with it and then start to see the downsides... right now we can't see it, but I am suspecting this is how it will be few months/years down the road when/if Oculus becomes widespread and catches on in flight sim community.

[metalnwood]

I can see lot of people getting the CV of the rift (probably me included) then when novelty wears off, and we actually have to fight and press buttons in cockpits etc... we'll start to get anoyed with it and then start to see the downsides... right now we can't see it, but I am suspecting this is how it will be few months/years down the road when/if Oculus becomes widespread and catches on in flight sim community.

 

Yes but we have to remember we are using some of the more complex aircraft in DCS that have many challenges when thinking about using them for VR, that doesn't mean VR cannot translate in to a great experience for flight simming. It's just that what it is good at might not be what they guys at the ed forum do most of the time.

 

I am not modifying my pit but I will add the rift and use it for what it's good at and not use it when my screen and helios is better.

 

When the rift matures there will be things where being in a vr pit is not so much of an issue, i.e. WWI scenarios, ww2, gliding, formation flying, air racing..

 

I am sure there are a lot more scenarios that work well with a rift and just a HOTAS + perhaps the odd bit of voice control where the immersion will blitz a monitor.

 

At the end of the day it is horses for courses, while a monitor will be better for some things, the immersion of the rift in others that don't have any peripheral issues will be better.

 

Of course some people will just like it one way or there other full stop :)

[vicx]

Yeah this argument that something is lost and something is found when new technology comes along reminds me of LAN gaming in the late 90's. On LAN twitch gaming was a better experience, but even with higher latency and lag, WAN gaming was always going to be the focus forever more.

 

Twitch gamers on PC also thought higher framerates and lower latency were more important than higher resolutions and making every thing look pretty. We weren't wrong but as it turns out, these other things were worthy of pursuing.

 

However I do like that the pendulum now swings back the other way with 3D stereoscopic gaming and VR. We now have 120hz monitors again (just like my old Sony CRT) and developers are now targeting low latency because you will vomit if the world doesn't update your VR viewport fast enough. Do you think that Sim users will not benefit from developers tweaking engines for high fps and low latency? Sims require low latency for sim fidelity even more than twitch games do.

 

Now for a disclosure. I only came to DCS because of an interest in VR experiences.

• I thought about ordering a DK2 after seeing an Elite: Dangerous demo.
  
• I installed the free DCS World after reading that DCS will have native Rift support.
  
• I enjoyed DCS Su-25T so much that I bought BS2 and FC3
  
• Two weeks later I ordered a DK2 because ... DCS will be an awesome VR experience.
  

 

So I'm like a VR barbarian at the DCS gates.

 

Kuky I totally agree with your prediction that VR will actually make you less competitive. I don't think there is any doubt that immersion will have to be it's own reward.