Free SU 25T VS SU 25A

[Fifi]

Hi,

 

Just tried the free SU25T, and was very surprised of its FM in regard of the SU 25A module...

Aren't they supposed to be same global plane, but different variant?

The SU 25A is much better handling in any situation IMO... is it because the T type doesn't have advanced FM? (because free)

 

I think i will not stick to this one...kind of desapointed...and the no 6DOF factor will not help either.

[Darkwolf]

I don't have the data with me here, but if i recall well, the Su25-T is more heavy due to added avionics and more fuel capacity.

 

That extra weight is killing the manoeuvrability.

 

I suggest you don't "fully" load your aircraft until you don't handle it well. :smilewink:

 

The key point for combat with this aircraft is not really the maoeuvrability, but the planning ahead. It is more good at shooting stuff with guided stuff from range, than gunning, dropping bombs and rocket in "wild" mode.

 

 

Have fun !

[Brisse]

As already said, the 25T is a lot heavier and it also have a big hump (to fit avionics) behind the cockpit that makes the fuselage less slick. ED have done a good job tuning the flight models. :)

[galevsky06]

The SU 25A is much better handling in any situation IMO... is it because the T type doesn't have advanced FM? (because free)

It does.

I think i will not stick to this one...kind of desapointed...and the no 6DOF factor will not help either.

3D Pit is on-going.... no published release date, but should not be so far.

[SchniX]

Both AFM, the Su-25T just too much heavy.

[Boberro]

In real life you wouldn't pack 2x Kh-29T, 16x Vikhrs, 2x Kh-25ML, 2x S-25L and 2x R-73 :]

 

This is why there would be less problems about maneuverability, than we have in game, because of our habbits.

[159th_Viper]

Give it time and learn to fly it properly. I've never had any issues regarding maneuverability - treated right, it is deadly.

[lxsapper]

And your joystick needs to have a dead zone of 5-10 and curve of 30-50, even if you think it's perfectly calibrated.

 

 

Don't try to enforce your preferences on other people. I fly with 0 dead zone and no curves. I hate deadzones and like the linear response. Don't tell people they have to anything, when it's not true.

[Fifi]

Ok, i understand now :)

Didn't know all those specifications...and that makes sens.

 

I'm really loving all the modules i bought so far, only the 25T was a notch down at first try.

But i guess time, learning and tons of practice will tell.

 

That's really good news if they plan to release 6DOF for the 25T :thumbup:

 

Other question: is there any English cockpit for it around? Or can i use the mod for the 25A?

Edited October 14, 2013 by Fifi

[lxsapper]

It's worth a try.

I had several people try it and they stuck with it, coz all aircraft fly better.

0 dead zone is not giving yourself any room for error.

And 0 curve has lowest precision, which is very important in a2a refueling and carrier landing.

 

The point of a dead zone is two fold 1 compensante for input variation arround the center of the controler and 2 to stop yourself from accidently making an input when you want you stick to be centered. The reason why I don't like them (but like I said this is tottaly personal preference) is one my controler is very precise (WH) any deviation from center I correct by trimming (like real pilots do) if I do an accidental input it will be minimal 1-2mm movements around the center translate to a minimal input wich is easely (and constantly) corrected, it's not error it's just piloting. But what I personaly hate about dead zones is the fact they they lead me to error, without them I know when my stick moves there will be response from the aircraft, but with a deadzone that response will only beguin somewhere offset from the center and that makes me "bump" the controls. I can understand people who like them but I think that after 1-3% they stop beeing usefull and become a waste of axis travel. You may even find you need less curve if you use less deadzone.

As for the curves I know people use them to gain precision arround the center of the axis, but that leads to less precison on the extremes, I rather keep my controls linear so a given amount of movement translates to an equal increase of response throuout the axis.

 

It's ok to tell people "I like this, try it", I only tought you shouldn't have said "you need to" because that's not the case at all.

[159th_Viper]

Don't set any curvature on the T-Toad: It's unrealistic and will make the aircraft more sluggish than necessary. Likewise with deadzone, unless your controller is skittish.

[AtaliaA1]

Don't set any curvature on the T-Toad: It's unrealistic and will make the aircraft more sluggish than necessary. Likewise with deadzone, unless your controller is skittish.

 

 

Isn't there a little "Play" in the stick of a real one? Even with Hydraulics you still have the mechanical connection to the shaft. (I would think)

[lxsapper]

Isn't there a little "Play" in the stick of a real one? Even with Hydraulics you still have the mechanical connection to the shaft. (I would think)

 

Very likely. There's play in my car steering wheel. :) And most cars that aren't top brand/model or spanking new.

However on the HW the stick actually inputs inside this play zone, every displacement no mater how small translates into input from the stick. I'm confortable with this, but I undestand if people are more confortable with a 1% or so deadzone. But I do quite a bit of flying (straight and level stuff) inside this play area without actually pusshing the stick spring system.

 

With mechanical linkage there is usually no response to movement inside the playzone because no control surfaces, or steering column (in a car) are beeing dispaced.

[Angel101]

...

This aircraft is the most capable air-to-ground, more so than A-10A/C.

And is the closest multi-role jet that we have currently.

....

 

I strongly disagree, reading your post I know that you love the toad, it´s good, but I think that you know nothing (jon snow) about A-10C and his avionics and weapons... also Toad isn´t a real threat for any F-xxC // Mig-2x or Su-xx.

[Fifi]

The point of a dead zone is two fold 1 compensante for input variation arround the center of the controler and 2 to stop yourself from accidently making an input when you want you stick to be centered. The reason why I don't like them (but like I said this is tottaly personal preference) is one my controler is very precise (WH) any deviation from center I correct by trimming (like real pilots do) if I do an accidental input it will be minimal 1-2mm movements around the center translate to a minimal input wich is easely (and constantly) corrected, it's not error it's just piloting. But what I personaly hate about dead zones is the fact they they lead me to error, without them I know when my stick moves there will be response from the aircraft, but with a deadzone that response will only beguin somewhere offset from the center and that makes me "bump" the controls. I can understand people who like them but I think that after 1-3% they stop beeing usefull and become a waste of axis travel. You may even find you need less curve if you use less deadzone.

As for the curves I know people use them to gain precision arround the center of the axis, but that leads to less precison on the extremes, I rather keep my controls linear so a given amount of movement translates to an equal increase of response throuout the axis.

 

It's ok to tell people "I like this, try it", I only tought you shouldn't have said "you need to" because that's not the case at all.

 

I totally agree with your statement.

I own a TM Warthog, and imo this stick doesn't need any dead zone or even curves.

I'm saying, because i tried...and result was worst :smilewink:

Only for helicopters, i can set a small/slightly S curve to the pitch and roll, just to help a bit.

[159th_Viper]

... also Toad isn´t a real threat for any F-xxC // Mig-2x or Su-xx.

 

You think?

 

Here's a re-post:

 

 

....Now what kind of petaQ would fire three missiles at a virtually defenseless Su-25T? :huh:

 

Defenceless? Not quite :D

 

Look at it this way.......My motto is to ALWAYS carry 2x73's and maybe 60's as well. ECM pods are next to useless at present. If you're tagged by a fighter, don't run. Put him on your 3/9 line and wait for the launch. Once launched, dive and spoof the missiles, relatively easy to do with terrain masking and altitude.

 

Now, depending on the 'I-talk-with-my-hands' aaahh sorry, I meant Fighter Jock, once you spoofed his missile he's probably spluttering in his cockpit thinking OMGWTFHOWISTOADIESTILLALIVEOMGWTF and suffering a pride-demeaning anxiety attack, not necessarily in that order. At this stage you should know three things:

 

1 - Where he is approximately

 

and

 

2 - How far away he is

 

and

 

3 - His closure rate

 

Now as a direct result of the fast-jet's self-esteem issues at getting bested by a Toad you can bet dollars to doughnuts that he is seeing red, throwing caution out of the window and is hunting you down like a hound-dog, salivating over his HUD.

 

Wait for the next missile volley and pray for good fortune! When it happens, you should see it and hopefully get a visual. All this time you should also have been closing in on the Bandit to get your 73's within range.

 

Spoof the missiles to the best of your ability, again with countermeasures, terrain masking where relevant and altitude. IF you are successful then revel in the delight that

 

1 - The fast-jet jock has no doubt just had an accident that will require a new flight-suit, brought upon by yet another Toad-thwart

 

and

 

2 - You are about to feed him a 73, followed by a 60, or, depending on your mood, another 73 and for dessert, 2 60's.

 

Once the bugger has been suitably humbled, drop the remainder of your ordnance and run like the clappers back to base as you can be certain that he has just respawned and is running at you again with his a$$ on fire bent on revenge.

 

Now this works sometimes, sometimes not, depending on the calibre of your foe as mentioned. That is however neither here nor there as trust me when I say that there is no better feeling than handing a Fast-Jet jock his a$$ on a platter whilst driving a Toad. It may not happen often but when it does more than makes up for the times when it does not.

 

 

 

 

 

Or you can just do what another 159th squaddie did: Hunt him down like a Dawg and End him with your 30mm :D

 

VdHrGxKYiy8

 

 

:D

[GeorgeLKMT]

I don't know much about A-10C, but 16x Vikhr = ultimate fun package :smartass:

[seikdel]

Boy, folks 'round these parts get mighty highfalutin with their controller settings. Seriously, it's personal preference. If your stick requires deadzone, use it. If you can control the aircraft better with an S-curve, use it. Don't try to make everyone else be like you, because [spoiler alert] they're not![/spoiler alert]

 

OMGWTFHOWISTOADIESTILLALIVEOMGWTF

This post still gets me every time =D

 

Its the only aircraft that can destroy absolutely everything in DCS, which cannot be said for any other individual aircraft.

As a Ka-50 pilot who's sunk ships with Kh-25MLs and killed a MiG-29 with Vikhrs, I beg to differ =P

 

Su-25T has IRCM directly behind it that spoofs all IR missiles close to 100% of the times.

83% ;-)

[maturin]

There's no such thing as 100% in warfare.

[esb77]

Ah, just a technical note regarding this:

Avionics? Su-25T Autopilot has terrain following. And it also perfectly adjusts the trim for you.

 

While the 25T can do rapid and useful auto-trim functions via the autopilot it most emphatically DOES NOT have terrain following capability.

 

It has a very good radar altitude hold mode.

 

The difference may seem subtle, but it's about what the sensors tell the autopilot and how the autopilot reacts. The radar altimeter does not measure the plane's altitude! It measures the straight line z axis (of the plane's frame of reference, not the ground's) distance between the belly of the Su-25T and the nearest large radar reflective surface within 1500m.

 

Edit for clarity: If you draw a right triangle below the plane with the sides defined by vertical altitude above ground, ground level (ignoring any slope of the ground), and the bank angle of the plane, the radar altimeter measures the distance along the bank angle to the ground rather than the distance straight down to the ground. The autopilot treats the radar altitude as the vertical altitude though, and this creates LOTS of opportunities for crashing the plane.

 

A true terrain following mode would in addition to the basic radar altitude need to know which direction is up relative to the ground, and the distance to the nearest observable obstacle in the front lower quarter sphere relative to the plane. This information is needed so that any obstacle can be recognized by the terrain following algorithm and maneuvered around.

 

There were attack planes and bombers from the Su-25's era that were designed for high speed low altitude ingress and had TFR systems that would fly the plane over rough terrain at low altitudes without pilot assistance. Put the Su-25T in a similar situation on autopilot and it will promptly fly you into the ground. Banking at altitudes less than 15 m with the AP in r-alt hold mode is also very dangerous in the 25T because the bank angle increases the radar altimeter reading which the autopilot interprets as greater distance AGL. Then it decreases altitude to maintain a constant radar altimeter reading and you get a wingtip strike that ruins your lovely SEAD run.

 

The Grach-T is a wonderful plane if you know and respect it's limits. It'll kill you quickly if you don't respect them though.

 

I keep telling myself that one day I'll take enough of a break from flying it to learn how to operate the aircraft in my five paid modules.

Edited October 15, 2013 by esb77

[Angel101]

I fly A-10C and know enough to use it efficiently in DCS.

I program the bombs, flares and do everything very well in it.

And I fly Su-25T since FC1, and I can tell you that it's much more capable.

 

A-10C's main advantage is Mavericks (only 4 or 6) and CBU-105 GPS bombs that do not miss and kill multiple targets at once from high altitude.

Also the sensors and RWR. But CMs on automatic is a waste.

Su-25T has IRCM directly behind it that spoofs all IR missiles close to 100% of the times.

 

I don´t know anyone using the CM´s on automatic, always manual with custom programs.

 

We can be alerted (when it works :music_whistling:) from IR lauches, and anything that leaves an trail behind it.

 

You do not mention nothing about GAU-8, it´s the essence of the plane. With enough rounds to open several tanks and transform them in cabriolets.

 

 

A-10C is absolutely useless against any radar SAM with the range over 10km (all but Tunguska).

It's unable to SEAD, the SAMs have to be located visually by placing yourself in danger.

 

Is not a plane to do that task, there other platforms to do that job.

 

But in case that we find and spike of a low defence system like a tunguska, thor or even an Gecko, we can triangulate it´s position safely out of his range and search with the TGP and engage with a mav. Of course is slower than do it in a Toad. example:

 

And also, If we need we can engage better defence systems doing what this plane does best... flying low.

 

 

Su-25T is more of a threat to anything, air or ground targets, than A-10C can be.

It can always outrun the A-10 and force it back into a head on fight, instead of telephone booth.

And in a head on, Vikhr-M can be reliably locked and launched vs aircraft at over 10km.

And the Toad's precision weapons payload is larger.

The situational awareness in it is achieved over time.

 

We can spend pages writing about who is going to win in a encounter, they aren´t made for this purpose, they just carry self-defense weapons... so I´m not going to enter in a dispute.

 

About SA, with a TAD, datalink and RWR capable of track several threats, do you think that we have a bad SA?

 

Maybe you in Su-25T are not much of a threat, but I am.

Did you not notice 6 F-15C kills with it on the screenshots? And no, that's in the air, as they're taking off to get me at Sukhumi, one by one. Yes, Vikhr-M and cannon vs F-15s in the air.

I rest my case. :)

 

So, you killed several airplanes in the take off phase... :lol: then tell me the difference between destroying them on ground.

 

Love it! :D

 

Yea, it's like Halloween death candy ready to be given out left and right. :)

There are no counter-measures against Vikhr-M, except maneuvering.

 

I agree, it´s a pleasure to load so much missiles.. but the downside is easy for an airplane to break the lock.

 

...

But keep in mind that A-10C is from 2005+ upgrade and Su-25T is from 1985!

...

 

I know, we are comparing apples and oranges. Just I disagree with your sentence "This aircraft is the most capable air-to-ground, more so than A-10A/C."

Edited October 15, 2013 by Angel101
misspelling

[Eldur]

It's worth a try.

I had several people try it and they stuck with it, coz all aircraft fly better.

0 dead zone is not giving yourself any room for error.

And 0 curve has lowest precision, which is very important in a2a refueling and carrier landing.

 

I flew with special curves all the time wherever I could (Il-2, Lock On etc) until Rise of Flight came without curves initially. That made me practice with linear curves that I now use in every sim. Needs minimal movement, but precision is the same at each position of the stick - with curves this changes. BTW force feedback trim in DCS is pain in the ass with non-linear input curves :D

 

Best training is flying the Sopwith Camel in RoF with linear curves. If you can hold a steady aim in that crate, you can fly anything in any sim. It's probably the most sensitive and bitchy thing in pitch axis that I might ever see.

[Fifi]

Best training is flying the Sopwith Camel in RoF with linear curves. If you can hold a steady aim in that crate, you can fly anything in any sim. It's probably the most sensitive and bitchy thing in pitch axis that I might ever see.

 

Strangely, i can fly the Camel on linear curve without much trouble (FFB stick or not), but the DR1 always gives me very hard times...

 

Back on topic, it was 25T VS 25A...not 25T VS A10...wich is not comparing apples to oranges :D

[uboats]

Both have afm, 25t includes more equip, thus heavier and with poorer fly performance than 25a

[CypherGrunyev]

Expert, you're kinda becoming a propaganda poster slowly with each post.

 

You won't shutup about how the Vikhr is such a "Great" missile, and how it can even kill defenseless planes on takeoff. Whoah!

 

Fact of the matter is its still a SACLO's missile. I still have to guide it in with the laser, and any deviation of that laser or temporary loss can send it on bad trajectory. Not to mention if there's ANY SORT OF MANPAD THREAT, the pilot puts himself at risk to continue guidance. Yes. Its an effective missile. I love using it against armor just as much as the next Slavic Male. However. it doesn't mean it's god. As for it's "Air To air" Capability, any Fighter pilot who fails to detect, notice, or in any other way counter a bogey getting within 10 miles of him is a bad pilot. Especially when it's a Ground Attack.

 

I mean hell, Scorpion has tricked me a couple times using mountains and AWAC's walk-on.... in an actual fighter [MiG-29] But last time I recall, tank's don't climb mountains and Ground Attack airplanes like tanks. So by that generalization it mean's ground attack airplanes shouldn't like mountains either.

 

I don't know why you scream SEAD with it, when using that fookin pod makes you a MASSIVE target for pretty much everything on the map. Every time I take out my SU-25T, slap on the ELINT pod and some SEAD missiles, I get painted almost instantly by enemies. Oh, but don't worry, that GLORIOUS RWR the russian's had to put on EVERYTHING can tell me there's a GENERAL THREAT TO MY FRONT. OH BOY, DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING. Better yet, it even goes so far as to give me a single light-indicator as to if it's on the ground or in the AIR. Whoah!

 

I am in no way trying to say the SU-25T is a bad aircraft. It's not. I still like to take it out of the hangar and rack up some kills. But in the end of the day, I still prefer my A-10A/C.

Edited October 21, 2013 by CypherGrunyev
I suck at formatting