A-6 "Intruder" by Razbam

[WinterH]

While I'm at it then, let me further baffle you folks by saying "F-14 = meh..." for me too :D. USN and / or USMC aircraft I'm interested in are :

 

A-7, A-4, F/A-18C. Even then, I'm not that much interested in carrier ops either, I'll takeoff / land from carrier a few times probably, for the sake of novelty. Then will use such aircraft mostly from "proper" runways :music_whistling:.

[Aginor]

What I don't get about parts of the discussion:

This isn't (eh... or shouldn't be) about preference. At least not only.

Why should take Razbam the extreme risk of doing a multi-crewed jet first when another, similarly capable and in many points similarly equipped (technology-wise) single-crewed jet can be done first?

 

I also think an A-6 might actually not be as much fun in DCSW as it might seem:

- Flying SP as a B/N with an AI pilot: ARRR!! **** Why U fly so bad?!

- Flying SP as a Pilot: *** dammit AI! Why U bomb so bad??!

==> People complaining in the forums about module being useless in singleplayer

 

- Flying in MP as a B/N: Spamming "Need A-6 pilot" in the chat, finally finding a pilot, bad communication because nobody wants to use TS, it sucks. Then finding a pilot who is a troll and flies directly into the ground, shouting "OLOLOLOL". Then finding another pilot, who sucks so badly you can't hit anything, and then complains you are a bad B/N. Rage quits, and since you can't control the plane you have to eject or crash.

- Flying in MP as a Pilot: Spamming "Need A-6 B/N" in the chat, finally finding one. Communication see above. He doesn't hit anything, claiming you are at fault. Rage quits. You find another, that one ejects as soon as you run out of ammo because "***NOOB, noOne flyZ back when winchester."

- flying MP as a pilot or B/N, switching seats so you can play effectively. Sucks, neither realistic nor fun. All groups above hate you.

- flying MP as a pilot or B/N with AI in the other seat: Either the AI is good, so people hate you and nobody finds someone to fly with ever, OR the AI is bad, which leads to constant complaining and/or the other cases above.

 

 

Only solution is to fly in a squadron, which most people don't do. So they will complain that "Razbam is the devil out to destroy DCSW" because they produced an iconic plane that you can only have fun in if you are one of the small percentage of an already small community who flies only MP and only with squad mates.

 

Also this whole post will probably apply to Leatherneck's F-14 as well.

 

 

And that's why IMHO A-7 should come before A-6, even though the A-6 might be the cooler plane. Solve the problems one at a time and let us fly something cool in the meantime. :)

[CHDT]

Aginor is totally right.

It remembers me the situation in Planetside 2 with vehicules without a gun for the pilot or which must be used by two guys together.

They are not a great selling success, a niche within a niche, within a niche.

 

I frankly don't understand the interest in this fat turkey.

[OneBlueSky]

 

Also this whole post will probably apply to Leatherneck's F-14 as well.

 

 

 

Could also just as easily be that people's love for those two planes will inspire more active online players or a better experience. When people really love something, it affects the online community and more people want to participate with it. Granted though, it doesn't always happen that way.

 

Also Jester AI could make all the difference with regard to the single player F-14 experience. It's not going to be just basic AI. Much smarter, written specifically for the purpose of multi-crew and the F-14. It's not as good if you prefer to play as a RIO, they say outright it will be really good and useful as a RIO but not as much as a pilot, though you can switch if you like. Nothing's to say that something couldn't be done for other multi-crew combat aircraft as well.

 

I get that some people just like the A-7 better, but planes requiring a BN or RIO are not as hopeless as all that. Where there's a will there's a way, and where there's as much love as the A-6 and F-14 inspire, there's certainly a will.

 

At the end of the day I'm just excited for anything new and of the era making it in game. Bring whatever comes, I'll buy it.

[Tirak]

Only solution is to fly in a squadron, which most people don't do. So they will complain that "Razbam is the devil out to destroy DCSW" because they produced an iconic plane that you can only have fun in if you are one of the small percentage of an already small community who flies only MP and only with squad mates.

 

Also this whole post will probably apply to Leatherneck's F-14 as well.

 

I don't foresee this being as much of a problem as you seem to think. If you're not part of a squadron or a clan or guild or whatever you call it, most of the major servers have a TS you can get onto. Finding pilots/RIOs isn't going to be a problem. It's no different than say, Project Reality, where most major servers had a mumble or TS, and in very short order the entire team would be on, even if they weren't part of a clan.

[Aginor]

@OneBlueSky

Sure, me too. I think DCSW has to have multi-crewed planes.

 

Great working multicrewed jets will be loads of fun. The point is just that it might be development-wise better to first get the other stuff under control (by creating another plane that makes use of those) so with the A-6 project they can focus on the aspects that make this plane particularly hard.

 

Leatherneck did exactly that. They created a supersonic jet with A2A radar, guided weapons, and complex systems. They had a lot of stuff to learn and fix. Now they know how it works.

So now they add swept wing and multicrew.

 

And yes, the Jester AI (or something similar by another developer) might be just the solution we need. I just.... let's say if it really works that way I will be very surprised. Writing AI is a very complex task.

 

 

EDIT@Tirak: I played BF2 and several MMOs and DCSW for years and the random players never joined TS. :D

Maybe times have changed. :)

Edited March 15, 2016 by Aginor

[Tirak]

@OneBlueSky

Sure, me too. I think DCSW has to have multi-crewed planes.

 

Great working multicrewed jets will be loads of fun. The point is just that it might be development-wise better to first get the other stuff under control (by creating another plane that makes use of those) so with the A-6 project they can focus on the aspects that make this plane particularly hard.

 

Leatherneck did exactly that. They created a supersonic jet with A2A radar, guided weapons, and complex systems. They had a lot of stuff to learn and fix. Now they know how it works.

So now they add swept wing and multicrew.

 

And yes, the Jester AI (or something similar by another developer) might be just the solution we need. I just.... let's say if it really works that way I will be very surprised. Writing AI is a very complex task.

 

 

EDIT@Tirak: I played BF2 and several MMOs and DCSW for years and the random players never joined TS. :D

Maybe times have changed. :)

 

 

Ah, now I see your reasoning, I suppose I folded CHDT's post in with yours and applied the reasoning incorrectly. In that case, I agree, a company jumping headlong into a multicrew aircraft would definitely be trying to run before walking, though I think that somewhat discounts RAZBAM's strides with the Mirage 2000. Granted, there's a ways to go on that module, but I'm of the opinion by the time it gets down to coding the Intruder, the Mirage will be in a similar place as the MiG-21 was when LN announced their Tomcat.

 

As for PR, it always attracted a slightly different crowd than the regular BF2 lemmings, and had the advantage of a built in VoIP, but a few years ago before I stopped playing, pretty much everyone was on Mumble. Multicrew isn't going to work if most people are stuck using text chat for comms.

[Einherjer]

I don't see this as a problem, more then a chance to create what really different or unic! Flying mulicrew with a squadronmate or a friend is a complete new feature for flight simmers and it brings an enormous amount of realism ( in other topics the crowd holds the realism flag really high) and I hope it will not be sacrificed for a few arcade gamers who are not willing enough to join a ts server or cooperate with others!

[hannibal]

multicrew a big attractor to VR gaming.. that social aspect

[Sierra99]

I'll be honest, I think Razbam should do an A-7 or A-6, but not both. I realise they have slightly different roles, but ultimately they are both US Naval Ground Attack aircraft of similar vintage.

 

I have to wonder if that's not exactly why they are doing both. when you factor in the overlap of eras they'd have the ability to cover Vietnam through Iraqi Freedom. I also have to wonder how hard it is to "port" previous models from other sims to DCS. If it's fairly easy, why wouldn't they?

 

Sierra

[Home Fries]

Think about it this way: aircrew coordination is a huge challenge even among professional aviators in the same aircraft. It is only over time that crews begin to gel and start thinking alike.

 

Randomly jumping into another cockpit may be a disaster, but then if you find a serious counterpart it may be a lot of fun. Either way it will be challenging.

 

If you're the pilot, imagine flying through the mountains in bad weather with nothing but DIANE cueing you when to climb/dive/turn, and depending on your B/N to back you up with the ground radar (and being able to read ground radar returns, which is art as well as science). Your B/N gets a fix off the ground radar (again art and science) and updates the INS, and your DIANE shifts accordingly. You have to decide whether to trust that fix, as well as the word of your B/N when he gives you his confidence. All of this happens well before you even get to your target area, where you depend on the B/N to set up your approach, put DIANE into attack, and set Master Arm on.

 

If you're the B/N, you've got the radar. Your pilot depends on you to keep the INS solution tight so his DIANE cues are accurate. You also need to trust your pilot to fly the cues, but you're constantly looking at the radar returns to make sure you don't see "mountain shadow" which indicates a peak higher than your current altitude. If you see it, you need to call it and make sure your pilot makes the right move to avoid Controlled Flight into Terrain (CFIT). You're like a coach: you're calling the shots, but you're dependent on your pilot to execute.

 

Either way, it's a major challenge. That said, either way, when it works it's exhilarating! When it doesn't, it's frustrating, but you can learn and do better next time (providing your counterpart is serious). As long as you have a serious counterpart, it will be rewarding either way.

[ghostdog688]

A-6 "Intruder" by Razbam

 

I think the barrier to derp will be the cost of the module; no-one is going to drop $50 to troll folks in MP by deliberately sucking at a MP session. In fact, I would trust the people with this module MORE, because they are seriously looking for likeminded crew.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jazzinman]

And an EA-6b with Harms would be great too!

[Einherjer]

Absolutely! But with the actual ECM system it's not much useful.

The A-6B or E can carry HARMs too

[Aginor]

I admit I may be too pessimistic based on my experience concerning multicrew, I really hope y'all are right. In fact I would be VERY happy to be wrong. :)

[iLOVEwindmills]

Hi gents:

Well, yes, we do have an A-6 planned and that´s the starting mesh (lots of work to be done) but it will not appear before the F-15E which is planned after the Harrier release (Tucano release might appear in the interim, at least that´s the plan).Around Harrier release time you might start seeing pics of the A-6 being made, but once again, it wont be ready after the F-15E is, which is our top priority.

Best regards

Prowler

 

Don't want to derail but is the A7 still planned somewhere?

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

 

I frankly don't understand the interest in this fat turkey.

We'll have to start some fund to help deal with that disability of yours. :thumbup:

[AG-51_Razor]

It's just this kind of altruism within this community that keeps me hanging around. I will be the first to contribute Fishbed! :pilotfly:

[Sarge55]

As much as I enjoy the different aircraft I have to wonder if everyone will just be flying the F-18C which can do it all and very well at that. It will certainly be released before any of the others so will have a considerable head start in establishing it's premier position in Naval Aviation.

 

Obviously the multi-crew enthusiasts will still gravitate to the A-6 and F-14 but the A-7 will be sidelined I think. So, A-6 before A-7 makes sense.

 

Just my thoughts... could easily be proved wrong.

[King_Hrothgar]

There is a degree of truth to that, but the A-7 is still substantially different (it's a late 1950's fighter adapted to ground attack). I suspect the F-15E will fall into that trap more than the A-6 or A-7 would.

[Vectury]

Looking forward to the A-6 already, even if its gonna be a long wait! Ty Raz :thumbup:

[AG-51_Razor]

I think folks should not look at the choices made by the 3rd Party developers in terms of what they think will be the most popular or most useful, given what is available today and how their choice will or wont fit in. The developers have their own special reasons for their choices and they may or may not see fit to share them with us. The fact remains that the developers are going to do what they are going to do and there's not much chance that anything we have to say in here is going to change their minds. We should just be happy that they are planning on developing something for us to fly in this great world that DCS has created for us.

[gospadin]

Odds are you'd have some weapon release capability flying by yourself, with an AI BN.

 

Gunners on the huey are pretty good, no reason basic BN capability wouldn't work when controlled by AI too.

 

Sure, when you're "in the mix" and targets are popping up left and right you'd be at a disadvantage by yourself, but that's not a huge deal.

[AG-51_Razor]

.......but just in case I'm way off base here, I'd like to see an A-7 or an A-6, or maybe an F-15E next! :megalol:

[gospadin]

As much as I enjoy the different aircraft I have to wonder if everyone will just be flying the F-18C which can do it all and very well at that.

 

Possibly, but i'm sure we'll see more period-correct servers over time as the stable of possible planes grows.