*SA342 BUG REPORTS*

[Goggles]

Description: Flight model, pedal input during level turns

DCS Version:>1.5

 

In the simulation in level flight, pedal is required during turns in order for the helicopter to make coordinated turns: i.e. ball in the centre.

 

In the simulation, without pedal input in level turns, the helicopter slips: ball slides to the inside, and streamer points towards the turn. In other words, after banking the helicopter, the helicopter resists yawing in the direction of the bank.

 

In a real helicopter, pedal input is not necessary to make coordinated turns. Starting in cruise flight with the ball in the middle, coordinated turns can be made with feet on the floor.

 

The flight model does not make the aircraft pleasant to manoeuver.

 

The Belsimtek UH-1H flight model accurately replicates coordinated forward flight level turns: no pedal input required.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Goggles

[westr]

Cannot switch off Labels with ShiftF2 only with gazelle module. Not sure if this has been reported?

[nomdeplume]

Cannot switch off Labels with ShiftF2 only with gazelle module. Not sure if this has been reported?

Isn't it Shift-F10 to toggle labels? Or are you referring to something else?

[Goggles]

Description: Flight model, pedal input during level turns

DCS Version:>1.5

 

In the simulation in level flight, pedal is required during turns in order for the helicopter to make coordinated turns: i.e. ball in the centre.

 

In the simulation, without pedal input in level turns, the helicopter slips: ball slides to the inside, and streamer points towards the turn. In other words, after banking the helicopter, the helicopter resists yawing in the direction of the bank.

 

In a real helicopter, pedal input is not necessary to make coordinated turns. Starting in cruise flight with the ball in the middle, coordinated turns can be made with feet on the floor.

 

The flight model does not make the aircraft pleasant to manoeuver.

 

The Belsimtek UH-1H flight model accurately replicates coordinated forward flight level turns: no pedal input required.

 

Any reaction, comments, denials, corroboration, discussion?

[Mt5_Roie]

Well the Gazelle isn't a Huey so it would fly quite differently from it. The Gazelle also has a Stability Augmentation System which keeps it flying, sort of like a older version of the fly-by-wire system moderns aircraft have. So comparing a Huey to a Gazelle isn't really a good comparison. It's like saying a bus should turn like a Porsche.

 

So my reaction: Gazelle isn't a Huey....and thus requires a different way to fly her.

Comments: I like turtles.

Denials: Aliens are secretly controlling your Gazelle.

Corroboration: If you look at the 3D model of the Gazelle...it's pretty clear the illuminate are controlling your Gazalle

Discussion: 21 pilot...not real pilots, nor are their 21 of them: discuss.

 

Any reaction, comments, denials, corroboration, discussion?

[Goggles]

Well the Gazelle isn't a Huey so it would fly quite differently from it. The Gazelle also has a Stability Augmentation System which keeps it flying, sort of like a older version of the fly-by-wire system moderns aircraft have. So comparing a Huey to a Gazelle isn't really a good comparison. It's like saying a bus should turn like a Porsche.

 

So my reaction: Gazelle isn't a Huey....and thus requires a different way to fly her.

Comments: I like turtles.

Denials: Aliens are secretly controlling your Gazelle.

Corroboration: If you look at the 3D model of the Gazelle...it's pretty clear the illuminate are controlling your Gazalle

Discussion: 21 pilot...not real pilots, nor are their 21 of them: discuss.

 

I stumbled upon this thread:

 

ED Forums » English » Licensed Third Party Projects » Polychop-Simulations » SA-342M Gazelle » Bugs and Problems » Something wrong with flight dynamics.

 

 

What I meant by not feeling her, is that I don't feel I am flying a helicopter. Something I felt with Huey, Mi-8 and Ka-50. The responses from the helicopter are not those that I would except in real life (albeit all the differences between types, just talking about non artificially stabilized flight), specially in turns, it feels like it doesn't have a vertical stabilizer. I know that the Gazelle one is small, and probably, has something to do with that, comparing it to the size of the vertical structure of the 365, that is massive, but I really feels like it lacks the feeling of flying. Also when using stabilization, it's like the SAS is fighting with me and not helping me at all flying the aircraft.

 

 

Focha is right, and he's a real, current and experienced helicopter pilot flying Airbus Helicopter products. I haven't flown helicopters in 40 years.

 

In a bank in forward flight, the vertical stabilizer should keep the helicopter in a coordinated turn: ball in the middle, or close to it. In effect, the yaw axis resists the turn resulting in the aircraft side-slipping.

 

It seems that turn characteristics of the flight model in forward flight, require that pedal be added in the direction of turn. But in reality, the vertical stabilizer should otherwise keep the aircraft in a coordinated turn with the ball in the centre and the streamer lined up in the centre. There was also a comment that some cyclic input into the bank is required to maintain the bank; in a coordinated turn, the cyclic should remain centered once the aircraft is banked. This is another indication that the aircraft is side-slipping.

 

 

All conventional (with anti-torque tail-rotors/fenestrons) helicopters have practically the same handling characteristics. As explained in the FAA Helicopter Instructor's Handbook FAA-H-8083-4, p 10-6 (which is generic):

 

"To enter a turn from straight-and-level flight, apply sideward pressure on the cyclic in the direction the turn in made. This is the only control movement needed to start the turn. Antitorque pedals are not used to assist the turn. Airplane pilots transitioning to helicopters attempt to use the antitorque pedals as they would rudder pedal."

Buses and Porsches alike tend to skid in a turn. That's the law of physics, not handling characteristics. Same with helicopters.

 

A SAS would not induce unfavourable flying characteristics by inducing a slip towards a level turn, thereby making it harder to fly. In any case, if the SAS was turned off, it would fly like any other single rotor helicopter equipped with an anti-torque rotor/fenestron.

 

I never flew a helicopter with a SAS. Just basic boosted controls in the Bell 47, Bell 205 and Bell 206, and electrically trimmed cyclic in the Hughes 500C. They all basically flew the same and the Gazelle should be no different: no pedal input needed in cruise flight in a level coordinated turn.

 

P.S. Your last comment makes no sense.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Goggles

[Ramsay]

A SAS would not induce unfavourable flying characteristics by inducing a slip towards a level turn, thereby making it harder to fly. In any case, if the SAS was turned off, it would fly like any other single rotor helicopter equipped with an anti-torque rotor/fenestron.

 

AFAIK, above 48 kts (approx. 90 km/h), the SAS yaw actuator disengages, so shouldn't effect a coordinated turn at cruise.

 

This is from a SA-341 owner

I forgot to mention one component of the SAS system. They call it a 'Badin switch'. Once airspeed is about 48kts, the switch disengages the yaw electric actuator.

http://www.aviafora.com/forums/forum/helicopter-fora/gazelles/343-shrieking-gazelles?p=1010#post1010

 

and from the SA-341G manual, page 37

2.9.3 Transition to forward flight

...

NOTE: If SAS including yaw channel control is included, a short yaw movement may be noticed at approximately 50 knots when the yaw channel is automatically disengaged.

http://www.avialogs.com/en/aircraft/france/aerospatiale/as341gazelle/flight-manual-gazelle-sa-341g.html

Edited November 1, 2016 by Ramsay

[Goggles]

AFAIK, above 48 kts (approx. 90 km/h), the SAS yaw actuator disengages, so shouldn't effect a coordinated turn at cruise.

 

This is from a SA-341 owner

 

http://www.aviafora.com/forums/forum/helicopter-fora/gazelles/343-shrieking-gazelles?p=1010#post1010

 

and from the SA-341G manual, page 37

 

http://www.avialogs.com/en/aircraft/france/aerospatiale/as341gazelle/flight-manual-gazelle-sa-341g.html

 

Thanks for that.

 

Further reading the manual, the autopilot does not have a yaw channel. In the Flight Manual Supplement 13, section 0.5, it states:

 

"Since the autopilot functions only in cyclic ((pitch and roll), the pilot must continue to operate the directional pedals and collective pitch when necessary."

 

It wouldn't make any sense when on autopilot, to have to continually having to input pedal during turns in order to keep them coordinated (ball in the middle) and no slip or skid.

[0xDEADBEEF]

Well the Gazelle isn't a Huey so it would fly quite differently from it. The Gazelle also has a Stability Augmentation System which keeps it flying, sort of like a older version of the fly-by-wire system moderns aircraft have. So comparing a Huey to a Gazelle isn't really a good comparison. It's like saying a bus should turn like a Porsche.

 

So my reaction: Gazelle isn't a Huey....and thus requires a different way to fly her.

Comments: I like turtles.

Denials: Aliens are secretly controlling your Gazelle.

Corroboration: If you look at the 3D model of the Gazelle...it's pretty clear the illuminate are controlling your Gazalle

Discussion: 21 pilot...not real pilots, nor are their 21 of them: discuss.

 

I am glad you guys are taking feedback on the Flightmodel so serious. :noexpression:

Like really, I have no words. I'm completely speachless about this reaction.

 

Edit: Wait, I'll try the humorous approach as well. The Gazelle does not fly like a helicopter, so lets please not compare it to how other helicopters fly, ok?

[Mt5_Roie]

Glad to see you have a sense of humor.

 

But we do actually take FM issues seriously, some testing is taking al to longer then expected so can't comment on any updates yet. Any bug reports submitted with the bug template are filed and logged, tested and confirmed, and brought to the next level.

 

 

I am glad you guys are taking feedback on the Flightmodel so serious. :noexpression:

Like really, I have no words. I'm completely speachless about this reaction.

 

Edit: Wait, I'll try the humorous approach as well. The Gazelle does not fly like a helicopter, so lets please not compare it to how other helicopters fly, ok?

[shagrat]

Thanks for that.

 

Further reading the manual, the autopilot does not have a yaw channel. In the Flight Manual Supplement 13, section 0.5, it states:

 

"Since the autopilot functions only in cyclic ((pitch and roll), the pilot must continue to operate the directional pedals and collective pitch when necessary."

 

It wouldn't make any sense when on autopilot, to have to continually having to input pedal during turns in order to keep them coordinated (ball in the middle) and no slip or skid.

You mean the SA-341G does NOT have a yaw channel, right?

 

As the SA-342 HAS a yaw channel (you will notice during startup, that there is SAS channel for yaw beside the two for pitch and roll).

 

Besides you may ask your friend if he can elaborate on the flight behaviour of his SA-341 after attaching a 800kg concrete block (Viviane sight) on top left of the canopy, maybe that has an impact on the flight characteristics.

 

A good hint, was from a real military Gazelle pilot on these forums. They use the "Autopilot Master switch" on the cyclic to disengage the SAS temporarily, while turning or doing low speed aggressive maneuvers, to have full control.

[BronzeYardNo11]

Comments: I like turtles.

Denials: Aliens are secretly controlling your Gazelle.

Corroboration: If you look at the 3D model of the Gazelle...it's pretty clear the illuminate are controlling your Gazalle

Discussion: 21 pilot...not real pilots, nor are their 21 of them: discuss.

 

Roie please.

[Mt5_Roie]

My brain is a bit fried these days with testing and all the fun election stuff....so I use humor to help. My title does say court jester after all.

 

WE are working on fixing things, but its taking a bit longer then expected. As soon as we have any updates, I'll let you know.

 

Roie please.

[Goggles]

You mean the SA-341G does NOT have a yaw channel, right?

 

As the SA-342 HAS a yaw channel (you will notice during startup, that there is SAS channel for yaw beside the two for pitch and roll).

 

Besides you may ask your friend if he can elaborate on the flight behaviour of his SA-341 after attaching a 800kg concrete block (Viviane sight) on top left of the canopy, maybe that has an impact on the flight characteristics.

 

A good hint, was from a real military Gazelle pilot on these forums. They use the "Autopilot Master switch" on the cyclic to disengage the SAS temporarily, while turning or doing low speed aggressive maneuvers, to have full control.

 

According to the SA-341G flight manual, the SAS does (yes) have a SAS yaw channel. However, it disengages when the airspeed exceeds 90 km/hr.

 

The autopilot itself does not (no) have a yaw channel. According to the flight manual, the autopilot is separate from the SAS.

 

The issue is not "slow speed aggressive maneuvers" , but turns in level flight in cruise, above 90 km/hr, after the SAS yaw channel is supposed to be automatically disengaged. At cruise speeds, the fin is big enough to keep the helicopter stable in the yaw axis, and to maintain coordinated turns, so that operation of the SAS yaw axis would otherwise be redundant in cruise speed in straight flight, and counterproductive in cruise speed in turns.

 

As for the big block on top the flight canopy, that applies to the SA-342M, but not the SA-342L or SA-342Mistral. Parasitic drag would be minimal for the 2 latter, and the two side-mounted rocket pods would have balanced parasitic drag for the SA-342Mistral. In any case, in straight and level cruise flight, the aerodynamic forces acting on the fuselage achieve a balanced state, as pedal would have been adjusted to keep the ball in the middle; initiating a roll to turn would not require any more pedal input in order to keep the turn coordinated.

 

The question should be asked to a real experienced SA-342 pilot: does the pilot need to input any pedal while rolling into a bank in forward cruise flight. If so, to what extent. If this is the case, what is the behaviour of the helicopter if pedal is not input as the aircraft is rolled into a bank, as it affects slip/skid, and the streamer on the windshield.

[Goggles]

My brain is a bit fried these days with testing and all the fun election stuff....so I use humor to help. My title does say court jester after all.

 

WE are working on fixing things, but its taking a bit longer then expected. As soon as we have any updates, I'll let you know.

 

Nobody here is demanding instant action. But it would be nice to have some issues acknowledged and feedback given from the developers.

 

Hopefully, rational discussion is encouraged and reported to the developers, and that might help them understand, troubleshoot and fix issues, especially complex flight dynamics that do not seem apparent to the uninitiated.

[Mt5_Roie]

Well any issue that is reported using the bug template has been tested and reported. So the issues are acknowledged. It takes time to replicate some things in order to be able to fix them. Repeatable issues are easiest since we can replicate the issue and debug it live to fix. Other issues, primarily FM issues, require working with the real pilots. This makes things take longer since we have to schedule a time with them and have them be able to test any updates we make.

 

So patience is the key.

 

Nobody here is demanding instant action. But it would be nice to have some issues acknowledged and feedback given from the developers.

 

Hopefully, rational discussion is encouraged and reported to the developers, and that might help them understand, troubleshoot and fix issues, especially complex flight dynamics that do not seem apparent to the uninitiated.

[Whisper]

Nobody here is demanding instant action. But it would be nice to have some issues acknowledged and feedback given from the developers.

 

You mean this ? :

 

But we do actually take FM issues seriously, some testing is taking al to longer then expected so can't comment on any updates yet. Any bug reports submitted with the bug template are filed and logged, tested and confirmed, and brought to the next level.

[Pheonix0869]

Seems I am unable to access the Gazelle in 1.5 open beta. Whenever in the ME, or any other mission is selected, after the briefing I am given an F-10 map with the AI (presumably) controlling the chopper...

[Mt5_Roie]

The Gazelle hasn't been released yet for 1.5.5 Open Beta as we're still working on updating the code. The 1.5.5 update contains several network updates, so were working on updating the code for it. We hope to have it updated before 1.5.5 goes live.

 

Seems I am unable to access the Gazelle in 1.5 open beta. Whenever in the ME, or any other mission is selected, after the briefing I am given an F-10 map with the AI (presumably) controlling the chopper...

[Pheonix0869]

Thanks for the quick response, and no worries. Figured you might want a heads up if it was an unexpected glitch. Keep up the great work!

[Justificus]

Ok, I should have looked in this section before posting my issue in the other area I did...:doh: Off to go delete that thread...

[Falcaw]

Hey PolyChop, I am fairly new to DCS but so far the SA342 is by far my favourite module. So much fun!

 

I just have one problem. Not sure if it has been reported yet.

 

Sometimes when starting a mission from cold start etc, I start with no tail and it is lying on the ground next to me.. Noticed it on training "improve your flying" but have had it happen on user created missions too. It appears to be a bit random. Not sure if it is a bug with the gazelle module or dcs world doing damage when placing units sometimes on load. It's not a major problem I just check to see if I have a tail before starting the aircraft, if not reload. Just thought you should know.

 

DCS: 1.5.5

[jjohnson241]

Trim Reversed

 

Description: Trim action is reversed, i.e., Trim Nose Up command results in nose down trim, Trim Nose Down command results in nose up trim, Left Wing Down command results in right wing down, etc.

Single Player

Non Steam

To recreate: Start, Fly and apply trim

 

Controllers: HOTAS Warthog using POV Hat on Joystick for trim input.

O/S: Windows 10 32GB RAM GTX 1070 4GB

No Mods used to recreate

 

Note: Reported in Bugs thread by other players as early as 11/13/16

[Deceter]

Auto start cheat feature is not working for me in MP servers.

 

Only tried two (AEF) but same in 1.5 and 2.0.

 

Feature works fine in SP.

 

Is this expected?

 

EDIT: Problem solved. Seems Win Key doesn't work in VR. Remapped to single key press and it works fine.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Deceter
Update

[docWilly]

Auto start cheat feature is not working for me in MP servers.

 

Only tried two (AEF) but same in 1.5 and 2.0.

 

Feature works fine in SP.

 

Is this expected?

 

 

Never had any issues with autostart "cheat" in various MP servers since very first release of th Gaz. There must be another issue and maybe on your side.

Not sure if the server admin can inhibit this "cheat" (which is none to my opinion). Does anyone know about that?