fixed Super slow .50 caliber rounds

[unltd]

What's up with the .50 cal? Rolling into a diving strafe, I am catching and passing my rounds as I fire them. Seems like the rounds are loosing too much energy too quickly.

Edited May 2, 2016 by unltd

[71st_AH Rob]

Hmm, maybe that's why it is so hard to hit Migs these days?

[Reflected]

Upgrade to AMRAAMs and your problem will be gone...or wait... :D

[Art-J]

Don't know about muzzle velocity, but overheating of the guns comes very fast after recent updates. A couple of short bursts in gunnery tutorial mission and dispersion of the guns gets crazy in no-time.

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

Yes as the guns over heat (too quickly) the dispersion grows to insane levels and the velocity drops right off, this makes the gun sight totally usless even at very short ranges. As the sight isnt quite estimating lead correctly with a cool barrel its off by a huge amount with a hot barrel.

The guns, ammo and sight in the F86 needs some serious work, to bring the gunnery up to realistic levels.

[f-18hornet]

Yes as the guns over heat (too quickly) the dispersion grows to insane levels and the velocity drops right off, this makes the gun sight totally usless even at very short ranges. As the sight isnt quite estimating lead correctly with a cool barrel its off by a huge amount with a hot barrel.

The guns, ammo and sight in the F86 needs some serious work, to bring the gunnery up to realistic levels.

 

You are right with the gunsight - something must have changed. I just tried the Sabre after a while and it is really much more harder to hit a MiG.

[71st_AH Rob]

I did a quick unscientific test that I will repeat when I have more time

 

Took a Sabre out to the end of a long runway at the marks and fired the guns and observed where the rounds landed. the marks are 500' apart and the rounds landed before the second set of marks, mean point of impact was the ~center of reticle.

 

I checked the gun table in the F86.LUA and found that the azimuth and elevation are set to 0 so we should get a flat trajectory out of the barrel that drops only due to gravity

 

The M20 APIT has a Muzzle velocity of over 2900 fps so I would expect the rounds to land around the 625 yd mark assuming an avg muzzle height of 72"

 

I will repeat the experiment more scientifically when I have time and make a vid of it determining the exact median point of impact of the beaten zone.

 

This also raises another question, so I went to T.O. 1F-F86-1 and checked the information on gunnery eqpt in sect IV page 4-28. It confirms that the guns are bore sighted parallel to the fuselage center-line and that the sight is bore sighted down to intersect the mean gun bore at 2250 feet.

 

So what? Well since the sight line starts off above the gun line and continues in a perfectly straight line the sight line is angled down and the rounds leave the barrel on a flat trajectory dropping in an ever increasing arc at rate of 9.8m/s/s the flat sight line must intersect this arc fairly close the the nose of the a/c then stays below it until it intersects it again at 2250 feet from the muzzle.

 

The A-4 can be manually ranged from 1200' to 2700' so if it was set to 2250' the reticle would point to a spot on the ground fairly close to the nose of the a/c, (500'? don't have time to do the math right now) and the rounds would strike the ground beyond the reticle.

 

Anyone care to test this while I'm away for the weekend?

[Hubert Bigglesworth]

Yes the problem is the sight doesnt look/point down enough, the sight line is always above the projectiles. When using the mech cage 600ft i would expect to see the tracers pass through the center dot of the reticle (going up) fly some distance and then pass through it again (coming down) but the tracers are always below the sight line.

Does anyone have the correct dimensions in the vertical for the distance between the center of the gun sight and the muzzles of the guns ? if so it would be easy to work all this out, either just bore sight, and or actual trajectories using a .50cal elevation chart for bullet drop.

I've worked this out in the past, just scaling the f86 model in game to get the vertical offset between the guns and gun sight and worked out on this info, the sight needs to look down 20+MOA more iirc. But with the actual dimensions this could be worked out accurately.

 

Good post Rob. Make a copy of your lua file and change the elevation azimuths from 0 to 0.333 (degrees i think) and see the difference, i know elevating the guns is incorrect, but i cant find the file to depress the gun sight. Only works offline.

 

Hoping this gets sorted, over heat too.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Hubert Bigglesworth
spelling

[311Gryphon]

This is a very interesting topic. Hopefully more information to come soon. For one, I'd rather it not become HARDER to shoot things from the cockpit of the F-86. It already seems to be a pretty tough gig. For another thing, I'm not sure how the overheating changed POI and ballistics in real life but it just doesn't seem like shooting for a few seconds would cause that much of a difference. I've never shot an M2 but I've shot a lot of other guns. They do get hot quickly and the ballistics do change but I wouldn't think it would be that dramatic. Ah well. I guess we'll see.

[unltd]

@311Gryphon, it was fixed a couple of updates ago.

[Wolf_ofthe_North]

Guns are still super slow.

[Schmidtfire]

+1. Please fix this BST.

 

With a proper radar lock and auto-range, I still need to lead and place the pipper way in front of the target. If I am directly behind him (6 o' clock) the bullets shoot a lot lower lower than the pipper. Makes precise aiming VERY difficult atm.

[danielk]

+1

The F86 is really a beautiful plan and nicely done by BST, but with the current horrible bullet trajectory it takes all fun out of it. PLEASE fix this!! it is long overdue!!

[Bader]

Hi Guys,

 

We see you have a problem, If its any help to you.... We have the cure.

 

Check this link.....https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=173897

[Bersagliere81]

I bought sabre yesterday and I must say I was expecting .50 ammo to have much better range when strafing the ground.

Ammo appear to fall short too soon, but I must admit I have no knowledge in this matter.

Still a great plane, looking forward for news of this issue

[SoW Reddog]

So there is no response from devs on this in over a year... really?

 

DCS has such potential but they release too much unfinished alpha /beta/early release and never finish it off. Disappointing.

[71st_AH Rob]

Nineline, while you are out swatting bugs, have a look at this one and also the info in this thread:https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2982233#post2982233

 

Particularly posts https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2982233&postcount=21 and onwards.

[NineLine]

Yeah, was going to do some light reading on this tonight, will add those to my reading list. thanks.

[Squiffy]

In case you didn't see. AlphaZulu and I did some editing the last year or so. Him more than me by far. I found the muzzle velocity of the M3(2) to be a good bit low as well as the effective fire range. Outside of any barrel warp issues, the M3 should be up towards 890 to 900 m/s. Then increase the life range of the round to about 2000 m or so and you will see a good difference. You can do this by editing the .lua files for the F-86 and M3 lines for 50 cal API and APIT in weapons.lua. I was actually able to make the ammo OP super ammo and make ridiculous kills over 900 m/s and 2200 m range. I turned it back down. But of course these changes won't pass the integrity check in multiplayer. AZ has a download that can be shared like what you saw above on the coop servers using canons.

 

I was not able to find clear specs on the aviation M3 round API and APIT apart from newer ammo and sniper rounds in particular. Those cartridges are big and a good bit more grains

than was loaded on the F-86. Still 870 to 890 m/s helps a lot.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Squiffy

[71st_AH Rob]

M20 round had a velocity of 2950 ft/s or ~900m/s

[fencible]

So ~2950 fps with a 700 gr bullet?

[Squiffy]

Ah, yeah and somebody just broke the Sabre on the latest beta release! Argh! I even swapped back to my edited F-86 and Shell.lua files. Somebody broke the jamming damage! They jam at the slightest inclination now. What the heck?! The barrel heat looks the same and I didn't see anything in the other damage lines. Come on man. It happens even with reduced barrel heat. I have unlimited ammo on and NO random system failures. I tried changing guns and switching on and off. What a kill joy.

 

Please post the source for the more realistic 900 m/s round. I couldn't sort them out from modern sniper rounds.

[Squiffy]

Update. I tried both with and without gun heat at 30,000 feet. Followed a couple MiGs through dives down to low altitude. After quitting out several times with jams, I hung in there and sure enough the guns came back. It may be an effects or weather feature now. It also sounded like the gun switch may have been clicking in cockpit, maybe not. If it is an effect I would love to see which file.

 

Also, for .50 rounds, check this out.

 

https://www.range365.com/six-hardest-kicking-cartridges

 

And also, there is one round in the shell...lua that is another bullet. Is it M50 or M2? Can't remember. I think it's a red or green tracer above the M2(3) and it has a muzzle velocity of 930 m/s. Seriously! So what is that? A super awesome machine gun in the days of canons (later modern jet age), or did some .50 round get a magic grain boost? The .50 BMG sniper round is guess what...700 grain still?

 

And from wikipedia .50 BMG:

 

Ballistic performance

Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy

647 gr (42 g) Speer 3,044 ft/s (928 m/s) 13,310 ft⋅lbf (18,050 J)

655 gr (42 g) ADI 3,029 ft/s (923 m/s) 13,350 ft⋅lbf (18,100 J)

700 gr (45 g) Barnes 2,978 ft/s (908 m/s) 13,971 ft⋅lbf (18,942 J)

750 gr (49 g) Hornady 2,820 ft/s (860 m/s) 13,241 ft⋅lbf (17,952 J)[2]

800 gr (52 g) Barnes 2,895 ft/s (882 m/s) 14,895 ft⋅lbf (20,195

Edited February 1, 2019 by Squiffy

[Foul Ole Ron]

It's a miracle the USAF were able to shoot down any Migs in Korea if the Sabre's guns were really like this..

[Squiffy]

You know it. A clear, and agreed historical truth about the conflict was the Sabre's superior accuracy and utility in high g turning engagements. High rate of roll, g suit, and superior training. Boots Blesse's comment in my sig was a brilliant, succinct, summary and example of combat leadership when he told one of his squadron pilots, mid battle, to put the ship in a 4 g turn and keep it there. [Dogfights show - Interview] At that g loading, it was impossible for the MiG to pull enough lead and hit you with the heavier, lower muzzle velocity cannon. Period.