TM warthog: the worst gimbal in history

[bkthunder]

so, I did the whole re-greasing dance, not once, but 3 times! I followed famous videos on youtube, read all possible advice. I did everything in the right way.

 

I wasn't satisfied with the smoothness the first time around. Now, after the 3rd disassembly and a ton of Lewmar winch grease, I call it a day.

 

The stick is workable (and better than before), but it still has minimal stiction in some points. Most of all, the axis bleed is terrible. What a terrible design, seriously.

I opened up my old X-52 Pro, and while it has that stupid centering spring, the actual gimbal is divided in 2 axis like on a plane, and overall it's way simpler and better engineered.

 

Can't wait to get rid of this stick base and get a properly thought out gimbal.

[dburne]

Mine has done very well for me over the years, I added an extension a few months ago which helped a lot.

I am keeping an eye out however on the progress of the supposed upcoming Gunfighter by VKB...

 

BTW - trust me, the Cougar gimbal was far far worse.

[aaron886]

Same problem, friend. It's frustratingly bad. A 7.5cm extension (by MFG) has helped a lot for me.

[SpeedStick]

Thank god. I have been giving my stick the bad eye the last couple of months. Shitty ****ing gimble. I had the same problem. Regreased and sanded and smoothed and all that stuff. And no its spiking. But I still like the handle and throttle. So Im putting my hopes in the VKB Gunfighter.

[Thadiun Okona]

Sorry for the long post... at some point I'm going to make my own topic of it, but I'm in the process of designing alternate gimbals for the Warthog to replace the 'trailer hitch', which will retain the MX sensor and TARGET functionality, but on precision machined mechanisms.

My goal is to design gimbals that are compact enough to fit in an enclosure the same form factor as the stock one, so those with proper installations can use it as a drop-in replacement without modification to mounts.

 

Am making 2 different types, starting with opposing rocker arm construction (like CH Products or older VKB), as well as cam centering. My gimbals have provisions for spring centering on both sides of the assembly, allowing double the permissible max loads on the tiny mechanisms.

 

Here's some shots of my prototype rocker arm version, however the newer iteration is just slightly smaller to meet my req.

 

 

 

 

 

As the Rocker arm examples above have dual mechanisms, so will the cam versions. Anyone that's ever mounted a Warthog grip on VKB gimbals or used an extension on one will understand how soft it is, even with the stiffest spring and there is a limit on how strong that spring can be, hence double mechanisms.

 

Obviously Warthog's stock gimbals annoy me as well, however so long as the sticktion isn't present they are passable for most situations. Keep in mind, not all greases are created equal, and many people swear by are not very good.

 

I have settled on Nyogel 767a for this, an extremely thick damping grease that goes a long way towards taming the nastiness of that center detent as well as killing the ratcheting. However, no matter what grease you use, it's important not to let dust/cheeto crumbs/cat hair/etc find there way into the base,

and the open topped enclosure has quite the apatite if ignored.

 

I make/sell a super simple mod for stock Warthogs to keep dust out of the base enclosure. I'll be making my own topic for those shortly, but here's an album with pics/explanation http://imgur.com/a/9u123

 

Dimensions for the disc are there if anyone wants to cut out their own to try or use, or I sell my black mylar ones for $4 inc shipping in US and $5 international

[SpeedStick]

Wow. That is really cool. I was actually just thinking about making a gimbal myself but who am I kidding? I wouldn't even know where to start. Really like the gimbal. I would pay money if you ever get a working spare over. Just saying!

[Cibit]

I will have a gimbal as soon as your into production:thumbup:

[Revvin]

That gimbal looks stunning! FWIW I Dian think the Warthog gimbal was that bad, agree with dburne - the Cougar gimbal was awful, not so much in the design but the cheap metal used that led to a lot of play developing.

[PicksKing]

so, I did the whole re-greasing dance, not once, but 3 times! I followed famous videos on youtube, read all possible advice. I did everything in the right way.

 

I wasn't satisfied with the smoothness the first time around. Now, after the 3rd disassembly and a ton of Lewmar winch grease, I call it a day.

 

The stick is workable (and better than before), but it still has minimal stiction in some points. Most of all, the axis bleed is terrible. What a terrible design, seriously.

I opened up my old X-52 Pro, and while it has that stupid centering spring, the actual gimbal is divided in 2 axis like on a plane, and overall it's way simpler and better engineered.

 

Can't wait to get rid of this stick base and get a properly thought out gimbal.

 

I guess in the vast majority of all cases a too fluid grease was used. The grease layer breaches and both parts of the gimble contacts each other. The only way to avoid that, is using a more solid grease. Try NLGI 4, instead of 2 or 3, which were recommended by some users.

[Rabso]

 

wow that looks great Thadiun, keep going all TM Warthog users will love it.

[bkthunder]

Sorry for the long post... at some point I'm going to make my own topic of it, but I'm in the process of designing alternate gimbals for the Warthog to replace the 'trailer hitch', which will retain the MX sensor and TARGET functionality, but on precision machined mechanisms.

My goal is to design gimbals that are compact enough to fit in an enclosure the same form factor as the stock one, so those with proper installations can use it as a drop-in replacement without modification to mounts.

 

Am making 2 different types, starting with opposing rocker arm construction (like CH Products or older VKB), as well as cam centering. My gimbals have provisions for spring centering on both sides of the assembly, allowing double the permissible max loads on the tiny mechanisms.

 

Here's some shots of my prototype rocker arm version, however the newer iteration is just slightly smaller to meet my req.

 

 

 

 

 

As the Rocker arm examples above have dual mechanisms, so will the cam versions. Anyone that's ever mounted a Warthog grip on VKB gimbals or used an extension on one will understand how soft it is, even with the stiffest spring and there is a limit on how strong that spring can be, hence double mechanisms.

 

Obviously Warthog's stock gimbals annoy me as well, however so long as the sticktion isn't present they are passable for most situations. Keep in mind, not all greases are created equal, and many people swear by are not very good.

 

I have settled on Nyogel 767a for this, an extremely thick damping grease that goes a long way towards taming the nastiness of that center detent as well as killing the ratcheting. However, no matter what grease you use, it's important not to let dust/cheeto crumbs/cat hair/etc find there way into the base,

and the open topped enclosure has quite the apatite if ignored.

 

I make/sell a super simple mod for stock Warthogs to keep dust out of the base enclosure. I'll be making my own topic for those shortly, but here's an album with pics/explanation http://imgur.com/a/9u123

 

Dimensions for the disc are there if anyone wants to cut out their own to try or use, or I sell my black mylar ones for $4 inc shipping in US and $5 international

 

I hope you're going to sell this 'cause I will get one for sure!

 

I love the A-10C/F-16 stick, the throttles could be better but still nothing to complain so far. With the right gimbal I wouldn't need anything more :joystick:

[Zettman]

Nice work! I would buy one for sure. Would be nice if you could keep the original controller board so that it will still work out of the box with the DCS A10C module. But even without I would still buy it.

 

About greasing the Warthog, I first used a more fluid grease when I switched to a more solid grease, I had less stickion problems and did not have to regrease every 3 month. Last time I regreased with the more solid grease was about one year ago.

 

Zettman

[Mr_Burns]

so, I did the whole re-greasing dance, not once, but 3 times! I followed famous videos on youtube, read all possible advice. I did everything in the right way.

 

I wasn't satisfied with the smoothness the first time around. Now, after the 3rd disassembly and a ton of Lewmar winch grease, I call it a day.

 

The stick is workable (and better than before), but it still has minimal stiction in some points. Most of all, the axis bleed is terrible. What a terrible design, seriously.

I opened up my old X-52 Pro, and while it has that stupid centering spring, the actual gimbal is divided in 2 axis like on a plane, and overall it's way simpler and better engineered.

 

Can't wait to get rid of this stick base and get a properly thought out gimbal.

 

I took my X52 (none pro) and loved the way the gimbals were made and the hall sensors worked. Had it for over 7 years and took it apart last weekend to turn it into a helo throttle, still greased and no wear even on the cheap plastic.

 

Haven't even looked in the warthog yet, it's only 2 months old and works gorgeous except for the sensor slew which I had to remap to the mic switch, that slew looked like the mouse controller on the X52, is that really in the A-10?

[agrasyuk]

Sorry for the long post... at some point I'm going to make my own topic of it, but I'm in the process of designing alternate gimbals for the Warthog to replace the 'trailer hitch', which will retain the MX sensor and TARGET functionality, but on precision machined mechanisms.

My goal is to design gimbals that are compact enough to fit in an enclosure the same form factor as the stock one, so those with proper installations can use it as a drop-in replacement without modification to mounts.

 

Am making 2 different types, starting with opposing rocker arm construction (like CH Products or older VKB), as well as cam centering. My gimbals have provisions for spring centering on both sides of the assembly, allowing double the permissible max loads on the tiny mechanisms.

 

Here's some shots of my prototype rocker arm version, however the newer iteration is just slightly smaller to meet my req.

 

 

 

 

 

As the Rocker arm examples above have dual mechanisms, so will the cam versions. Anyone that's ever mounted a Warthog grip on VKB gimbals or used an extension on one will understand how soft it is, even with the stiffest spring and there is a limit on how strong that spring can be, hence double mechanisms.

 

Obviously Warthog's stock gimbals annoy me as well, however so long as the sticktion isn't present they are passable for most situations. Keep in mind, not all greases are created equal, and many people swear by are not very good.

 

I have settled on Nyogel 767a for this, an extremely thick damping grease that goes a long way towards taming the nastiness of that center detent as well as killing the ratcheting. However, no matter what grease you use, it's important not to let dust/cheeto crumbs/cat hair/etc find there way into the base,

and the open topped enclosure has quite the apatite if ignored.

 

I make/sell a super simple mod for stock Warthogs to keep dust out of the base enclosure. I'll be making my own topic for those shortly, but here's an album with pics/explanation http://imgur.com/a/9u123

 

Dimensions for the disc are there if anyone wants to cut out their own to try or use, or I sell my black mylar ones for $4 inc shipping in US and $5 international

 

Sorry for using a beaten cliche phrase but pictures above are the definition of "money in the bank". Looks great, good luck on your endeavor.

VKB could use some competition )

[jcbak]

Buy an extension and your issues will be solved for the most part. I use a 10cm extension and it solved any issues I had with stiction...... I am curious about the improved gimbal however.

[dburne]

Seeing those gimbal pictures brings back fond memories of IJ's excellent NXT gimbal mod for the Cougar.

It has definitely perked my interest, keep us updated on the progress. That cam centering certainly sounds appealing as well.

 

I would love to see something like this for the Warthog, and would be very interested in a product like that!

[98abaile]

Would be very much interested in the double cam gimbal and how much it will cost.

[some1]

Very interesting, count me in.

 

Though you probably should open a new thread for your development.

[Thadiun Okona]

Very interesting, count me in.

 

Though you probably should open a new thread for your development.

 

Thanks, definitely going to make my own topic just wasn't ready just yet but with all the relevant grumbling about the Warty lately I had to at least say something :p

 

 

 

Also, less drastic solutions are pretty effective for at least the scourge of sticktion, main topic of op, however the ergonomics/kinematics of the stock gimbals are-what-they-are and a different subject.

 

Sticktion itself however is pretty easy to make go away if you use the right grease, and so long as you use the wrong grease you are just kicking the can down the road, but you also really have to

stop letting dust/cat hair/lint enter the top of the gimbals, either make a boot or a plastic shield like I make, but don't leave that thing open or the hourglass runs out of sand in a hurry. http://imgur.com/a/9u123

 

 

Best: Nyogel 767a

 

Acceptable: Molykote EL30 (thicker Molykote formulas likely better)

 

Both synthetics good for plastic with excellent lubricating properties, however the Nyogel is a high tech damping grease that has no equal, it's not merely thick, this stuff is super stiff without offering the

slightest additional resistance to break it from a standstill (I've experimented with a great many greases in friction mechanisms I make). Most thick greases actually induce ratcheting and have very poor 'breakout' properties, especially after a little evaporation and dust ingestion...

 

Damping grease demonstration:

 

Molykote is not in that test, but when I compare manufacturer specs on relevant viscosity values, the Nyogel is ~600% thicker, and that viscosity really smooths out the impact when crossing the detente in addition to really smoothing the feel of the gimbals.

 

Nyogel 767a

Viscosity Index 194

27840 cP (absolute viscosity)

40c Viscosity 32000 cSt (kinematic viscosity)

SG = .87

Molykote EM-30L

Vistocity Index 56

5096 cP (absolute viscosity)

40c Viscosity 5600 cSt (kinematic viscosity)

SG = .91

[Lange_666]

TM warthog: the worst gimbal in history

 

No it's not, it's the TM Cougar which was/is far worse then the Warthog.

[Necroscope]

No it's not, it's the TM Cougar which was/is far worse then the Warthog.

 

True. Once you get used to Hog - any other gimbals become worse then the Warthog. Especially if your Hog was extended.

I have Cobra M5 as well and it is physically uncomfortable to have weak-n-wobbly joystick with separated axis in hand.

It is same feeling as weak handshake, if you know what I mean. ;)

[Sokol1_br]

What lead to the question:

 

Excluding VKB and BAUR CAM gimbals - as very few people use, so few feedback - what joystick have a at least reasonable good gimbal in computer joystick history? :)

[Sporg]

What lead to the question:

 

Excluding VKB and BAUR CAM gimbals - as very few people use, so few feedback - what joystick have a at least reasonable good gimbal in computer joystick history? :)

I had a relatively new Saitek x36 USB.

 

I felt it had a very good feeling in both axis and was reasonably precise.

 

When I later got an x52 I felt it was a serious step down in quality and in feeling.

 

However the gimbal in the x32 was plastic, so not long lasting under heavy use.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Sporg
correction

[dburne]

I don't remember the TM F16 FLCS being all that bad really... but then again it was followed by the Cougar, that gimbal had a way of making other not so great gimbals look pretty darn good.

[Dudikoff]

I had a relatively new Saitek x32 USB.

 

X36? I loved mine, too. I'm sure it still works, but you had to use some 3rd party drivers for newer windows.