We desperately need more eastern bloc aircraft

[StandingCow]

Crazy to see just how long a full fidelity aircraft can take to develop... the F-18 for example has been in the works for like 4 years?

[AOG]

That's actually not bad. Think of it this way. Creating the avionics software for the real thing takes 5-8 years. In effect ED are reverse engineering their code from the observed results of the original design process. It makes sense that it should take a similar amount of time as adjusted by the level of fidelity.

 

AOG

[WinterH]

As much as I'd like some of them, I have long put 4th gen Ru aircraft into "not happening" bin, and frankly, evenbif it could happen, I am not sure if MiG-29A would excite me a lot.

 

But, I definitely, and completely share the desire for more, much more Russian birds in the sim, and have been stating that in various threads.

 

Even if 4th gens are no-go, there still are amazing options in 3rd gen territory like various versions of MiG-25, MiG-23, MiG-27, Su-17/20/22, Su-15, may be even the Su-24 even though it is still in service.

 

As most of us are aware, someone is trying to do a Tu-22M3, we'll see howvthat goes.

 

Also, there could potentially be other "Red jets" than Russian ones. While China, if anything seem less happy to share than Russia whenvit comes to sharing / authorizing info on military hardware, if such info could be obtained "ED being based in Russia" issue would probably not be an issue for Chinese planes. I would enjoy J-7, A-5C or had they been possible at all J-10 and JH-7 too.

 

Something like a Su-17 should really be possible at this stage, at least I would hope so.

[Krupi]

Well, tell you what, brother...if we can get ED to cease the development of WW2 planes and focus on modern jets, perhaps it could done.

 

How about they stop working on the highly complex modern aircraft and start producing more WW2 aircraft :rolleyes:

 

Introducing WW2 aircraft is a big benefit to ED, larger player Base, more aircraft for third parties to develop quickly and the money will fund the work on complex modern aircraft.

 

Don't be so narrow minded.

[MikeMikeJuliet]

Now I bet some of you might laugh at me, and I fully understand that it would be a MASSIVE undertaking, but...

 

Why don't we stop pointless arguing, since this seems to be turning into a yelling contest, and create a mod for MiG-29A with the info that is available? I mean a bunch of you here say it would be possible and feasible and all info is available... so why not make it yourselves? There are a couple of modding groups working on other aircraft for DCS.

 

And even if it would never see the light of day, I bet everyone involved would really understand how much work ED and other developers have to put in their modules to get them to work...

 

Making a non-commercial mod doesn't require approval from the licence holder, right? It is just a fan creation.

 

 

With respect,

MikeMikeJuliet

[NeilWillis]

Nicely put MikeMikeJuliet.

 

Of course the desire is there for modern eastern block aircraft. No one disputes that ED have a hell of a job on their hands in pulling together everything that is needed to be able to release high fidelity, licensed, and accurate modules.

 

There are a few things to bear in mind.

 

ED have a policy of making no advanced announcements any longer due to the over ambitious expectations and criticisms from the forum. In order to have privileged information, you have to act responsibly, and the forum simply cannot do that, we have proved it time and time again.

 

ED have to comply with the law in both Russia, and internationally, and that fact could, and may be a brick wall to a lot of the projects they had in mind. We will never be privy to the legalities, because there will always be NDAs involved in any and probably all negotiations with the authorities and companies involved. Bottom line, it matters, and will never go away.

 

No amount of re-hashing the thorny subjects will change things, but of course, frustrations will be voiced, it is simply human nature.

 

It would be good however if people took the time to do a little research before going off at the deep end, and it would also make this forum a much more civillised place if people stopped getting personal, and when arguments fail, avoided turning to hyperbole, and simply let others say what they want to say.

 

It might also be a good idea to stop assuming that what non-ED representatives tell you is just rubbish. Some of the members here were around when ED and the other developers were much more open about their work. Sadly, the reaction of the forum has put an end to a lot of information, but opinions may still be highly accurate and valid, so take it at face value, and don't just dismiss it because of inconvenient speculations.

 

An example of how developers must now operate is the F-5E-3 project. It was in development for a long time before anyone got to hear anything at all about it. At least a year of development took place without a word being said. It is just as likely that other stuff is equally advanced, and that could include MiGs, Sukhois etc. We just don't know, so other than saying we'd like X, there is nothing substantive to say on the subject, because we simply don't know what ED are or aren't doing, and we are certainly not about to find out.

[StandingCow]

How about they stop working on the highly complex modern aircraft and start producing more WW2 aircraft :rolleyes:

 

Introducing WW2 aircraft is a big benefit to ED, larger player Base, more aircraft for third parties to develop quickly and the money will fund the work on complex modern aircraft.

 

Don't be so narrow minded.

 

WW2 aircraft might have a larger player base, but I think it's mostly an issue of there really being no other sims that do modern era aircraft out there. There are tons of WW2 aircraft sims/games though.

[WinterH]

WW2 aircraft might have a larger player base, but I think it's mostly an issue of there really being no other sims that do modern era aircraft out there. There are tons of WW2 aircraft sims/games though.

 

WT : Not even worth consideration from a sim perspective

IL-2 BoS & BoM : Half assed thing between sim/game, with unlocking crap as if it's an MMO like WT...

IL-2 CloD TF : Pretty good, but still not DCS level when it comes to flight & systems. Also focused on early war only.

Il-2 1946 mods : haven't tried newer ones, but can't imagine them being much better than WT level.

 

There are a grand sum of zero WW II sims portraying aircraft up to the level DCS does.

 

Whenever people don't get the specific aircraft they want, they throw the blame towards other aircraft in sim and proclaim "who wants that?!", or "there are sims for that".

 

Fact is, 4th gen fighters will most likely always be few and in between compared to older aircraft, OR their numbers will be upped by laxing the definition of "DCS level" and injecting in more and more guesstimations. Some people just refuse believing this, and decides to throw poo at other modules, as being useless, and causing aircraft they want to be not developed. It gets old, just saying... :) Still... there will be 4th gen aircraft which I am sure will be done to at least a very satisfactory degree, ED's F/A-18C. Possibly LN's F-14 too. However I am less sure about Typhoon and Razbam's current and future 4th gens for example... but it's OK, people want newer jets, and they're getting some one way or another. Meanwhile, I hope they won't keep peeing on other aircraft other people like to have ;).

 

And wasn't this about RED jets anyways? These threads always devolve like this... peace, out...

 

EDIT : Oh and, felt the need to clarify, post has a more negative tone than I intented, but negativity isn't targeted towards you StandingCow, it's more of a general adressing of multitudes of "meh, enough with period x, just do period y already!" attitude around here.

Edited August 12, 2016 by WinterH

[Silver_Dragon]

WW2 aircraft might have a larger player base, but I think it's mostly an issue of there really being no other sims that do modern era aircraft out there. There are tons of WW2 aircraft sims/games though.

 

DCS: World dont centre on none era, actually the broad range of DCS: W move from WW2 to early 2000s.

 

The "tons" of ww2 aircraft's / sims move on medium / low technology / fidelity. We never was a ww2 aircraft on a combat simulator to that "hardcore" level show by ED or 3rd parties (exception some aircraft's modelling on FSX / civil simulators).

 

The WW2 aircraft's / early fighters has a good start point to new 3rd parties, not complicate systems. great quantity to choose, good info and someone has actually in flight or more plausible get a license. Actualy has a "team" build a WW2 east aircraft (I-16 type 24 by Octopus-G)

 

Remember a important point, some of the actual 3rd parties (VEAO, Leatherneck, Polychop, etc...) start as modders team on the past before get the 3rd party status, only the perseverance, good work and progress can make that modders teams reach to a next steep, but that take time. We like see more and more 3rd parties into DCS: W with new modules (aircrafts / terrain / Ai units, etc), and other "modules" in the future (pilot-able vehicles / ships / trains :D ) if DCS: W continue improve them.

 

The future has open.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Silver_Dragon

[gavagai]

ED have to comply with the law in both Russia, and internationally, and that fact could, and may be a brick wall to a lot of the projects they had in mind. We will never be privy to the legalities, because there will always be NDAs involved in any and probably all negotiations with the authorities and companies involved. Bottom line, it matters, and will never go away.

 

Is there a quote from ED saying that there are legal matters to overcome before they can make a e.g. DCS Mig-29?

 

Legal issues seem like a popular thing to throw out here on the forums, but I've never heard about it except from forum users.

 

Thanks.

[firmek]

To make a clickable full fidelity require a module authorisation by russian authorities to model correctly system and functionality.

Is there any general knowledge as for which Russian aircrafts and their systems are declassified at the moment to the extent allowing implementation of full fidelity module. What I'm thinking about is 3'th and early/mid 4'th generation planes that would be still capable and interesting in DCS environment. Something like Su-17/20/22, Su-24, Su-25, MiG-23, MiG-25, MiG-27, first versions of MiG-29 or Su-27.

Edited August 12, 2016 by firmek
EDIT: added Su-24 and Su-25 to the list

[Scarecrow]

Is there a quote from ED saying that there are legal matters to overcome before they can make a e.g. DCS Mig-29?

 

Legal issues seem like a popular thing to throw out here on the forums, but I've never heard about it except from forum users.

 

Thanks.

 

No. But all the new pits have the capability to become clickable.

[Steel Jaw]

WW2 planes are already covered very well in other sims is my point.

 

On the narrow minded remark, I turned 50 this year andso Im entitled to be. :P

 

How about they stop working on the highly complex modern aircraft and start producing more WW2 aircraft :rolleyes:

 

Introducing WW2 aircraft is a big benefit to ED, larger player Base, more aircraft for third parties to develop quickly and the money will fund the work on complex modern aircraft.

 

Don't be so narrow minded.

[StandingCow]

WT : Not even worth consideration from a sim perspective

IL-2 BoS & BoM : Half assed thing between sim/game, with unlocking crap as if it's an MMO like WT...

IL-2 CloD TF : Pretty good, but still not DCS level when it comes to flight & systems. Also focused on early war only.

Il-2 1946 mods : haven't tried newer ones, but can't imagine them being much better than WT level.

 

There are a grand sum of zero WW II sims portraying aircraft up to the level DCS does.

 

Whenever people don't get the specific aircraft they want, they throw the blame towards other aircraft in sim and proclaim "who wants that?!", or "there are sims for that".

 

Fact is, 4th gen fighters will most likely always be few and in between compared to older aircraft, OR their numbers will be upped by laxing the definition of "DCS level" and injecting in more and more guesstimations. Some people just refuse believing this, and decides to throw poo at other modules, as being useless, and causing aircraft they want to be not developed. It gets old, just saying... :) Still... there will be 4th gen aircraft which I am sure will be done to at least a very satisfactory degree, ED's F/A-18C. Possibly LN's F-14 too. However I am less sure about Typhoon and Razbam's current and future 4th gens for example... but it's OK, people want newer jets, and they're getting some one way or another. Meanwhile, I hope they won't keep peeing on other aircraft other people like to have ;).

 

And wasn't this about RED jets anyways? These threads always devolve like this... peace, out...

 

EDIT : Oh and, felt the need to clarify, post has a more negative tone than I intented, but negativity isn't targeted towards you StandingCow, it's more of a general adressing of multitudes of "meh, enough with period x, just do period y already!" attitude around here.

 

I didn't take it as a negative at all, my point was only that there is more WW2 sim stuff out there than modern day military aircraft. :)

 

DCS: World dont centre on none era, actually the broad range of DCS: W move from WW2 to early 2000s.

 

The "tons" of ww2 aircraft's / sims move on medium / low technology / fidelity. We never was a ww2 aircraft on a combat simulator to that "hardcore" level show by ED or 3rd parties (exception some aircraft's modelling on FSX / civil simulators).

 

The WW2 aircraft's / early fighters has a good start point to new 3rd parties, not complicate systems. great quantity to choose, good info and someone has actually in flight or more plausible get a license. Actualy has a "team" build a WW2 east aircraft (I-16 type 24 by Octopus-G)

 

Remember a important point, some of the actual 3rd parties (VEAO, Leatherneck, Polychop, etc...) start as modders team on the past before get the 3rd party status, only the perseverance, good work and progress can make that modders teams reach to a next steep, but that take time. We like see more and more 3rd parties into DCS: W with new modules (aircrafts / terrain / Ai units, etc), and other "modules" in the future (pilot-able vehicles / ships / trains :D ) if DCS: W continue improve them.

 

The future has open.

 

Don't get me wrong fellas, I am not suggesting they don't do WW2 aircraft, I love my P-51 afterall and am looking forward to the spitfire. I was just stating that the reason WW2 aircraft games are more popular is because of the lack of modern day fighter sims at DCS level.

 

What we REALLY need is more Vietnam era aircraft! :pilotfly:

[NeilWillis]

Is there a quote from ED saying that there are legal matters to overcome before they can make a e.g. DCS Mig-29?

 

Legal issues seem like a popular thing to throw out here on the forums, but I've never heard about it except from forum users.

 

Thanks.

 

They are ever present, so don't discount them. No aircraft will make it to DCS World through endorsed developers without being fully cleared by the intellectual rights holders.

 

ED never talk about such matters because they are always negotiated under a cloak of confidentiality.

 

You want to make a MiG, then MiG have to be approached and a license obtained, and without it, any project will instantly be kicked into the long grass. Without it you will be exposed to punitive legal action by the rights owners. It is exactly the same for any commercially sensitive material - just ask anyone who pirates software, music or film. If you want to use copyrighted material you are required to obtain clearance first.

 

It is a simple fact that the more recent the subject matter, the less likely you will be to get a release to replicate it.

 

It is simply a fact of life, and if you don't understand that, then what planet are you from?

[Bearfoot]

WW2 planes are already covered very well in other sims is my point

 

By some definition of "very well" that, upon closer examination finds itself pretty tepid. By the same token, if you look hard enough there enough sims that do modern jets. 60th generation/space even. You might have to use the mouse to fly it, or it might only be an IOS/Android platform, but it is there ...

 

The IL2 series is very good. But NOBODY does a high-fidelity one quite like DCS. I would not complain if DCS stopped working on all modern jets and worked only on WW2 (hey need to add a Zero to complement the upcoming F4U, some flyable bombers and attack, such as B17, JU88, Val, Aichi)! But I would be THRILLED if they decided to focus 100% on helis (*ANY* western attack heli but esp AH1W or AH64, Mi-24, UH60)! Or stop all this fussing with SoH and F/18 and just get the Normandy map out of the door!

 

Personally, I cannot understand how anyone finds the notion of why someone would give up actually FLYING for just pushing something around the sky using brute force while managing a bunch of computerized systems ...

 

But hey, I am broad-minded enough to accept that my own narrow interests not only should not be imposed on the community, but that it is exactly the broadness of the DCS base that allows for "niche" projects to be entertained. As Wags mentioned, the FC aircraft helped fund the high-fidelity modern jets we have today. And so, while I am looking forward to the F/18 (honestly, in modern jets the A6 and Harrier even more, though), I'm hoping it helps pay for getting an AH-1W (or an A6M!) off the ground in the future though!

 

In any case, I think the notion that working on WW2 is interfering with modern jets is naive. From what I gather, many times one team finishes it work early and then needs something else to do while waiting for another team to do its thing, and thus multiple projects are juggled.

[Seaeagle]

Is there a quote from ED saying that there are legal matters to overcome before they can make a e.g. DCS Mig-29?

 

No :) .

 

Legal issues seem like a popular thing to throw out here on the forums, but I've never heard about it except from forum users.

 

I believe there were examples of this, but generally speaking the stumbling block is usually with acquiring the necessary level of documentation. Even for older largely declassified aircraft, its obviously so that the "deeper" the simulation, the more information required and the harder it becomes to obtain it to a sufficient level from open sources alone. For more recent aircraft types various systems are classified, which in turn would make a "DCS level" simulation all but impossible......I guess you could call that "legal issues".

 

But I don't see any of this being an issue for ED with regards to something like the MiG-29("baseline" version). The funny thing about this forum is that when people start speculating on the feasibility of a particular aircraft module and why it hasn't been made/announced yet, they tend to come up with the most exotic explanations.

 

Who ever said that they can't/won't make a MiG-29 module?. ED works in mysterious ways and without knowing what goes on behind the scenes, any attempt to assign logical reasoning to their projects(and the order in which they are pursued) is bound to fail.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

WW2 planes are already covered very well in other sims is my point.

 

On the narrow minded remark, I turned 50 this year andso Im entitled to be. :P

I mean, I might be a little bitter, too, if I could remember dinosaurs, too! :music_whistling:

[Bearfoot]

On the narrow minded remark, I turned 50 this year andso Im entitled to be. :P

 

 

 

I mean, I might be a little bitter, too, if I could remember dinosaurs, too! :music_whistling:

 

Old age does make you narrow-minded.

Narrow-mindedness is what makes you old! ;)

[wilky510]

What I'm thinking about is 3'th and early/mid 4'th generation planes that would be still capable and interesting in DCS environment. Something like Su-17/20/22, Su-24, Su-25, MiG-23, MiG-25, MiG-27, first versions of MiG-29 or Su-27.

IF ED can and make aircraft from Eastern side of things, it'll most likely be along exactly the aircraft generations you said: very early 4th, late 3rd or early 3rd generation.

 

Problem is MP won't be terribly balanced for the Eastern side, and there probably will be some balance complaining if and when this does happen.

[Bearfoot]

IF ED can and make aircraft from Eastern side of things, it'll most likely be along exactly the aircraft generations you said: very early 4th, late 3rd or early 3rd generation.

 

Problem is MP won't be terribly balanced for the Eastern side, and there probably will be some balance complaining if and when this does happen.

 

 

Start the obvious here, of course, as I am sure we all know that balance is a tricky thing when we are demanding ultra-high fidelity, because the real world conflicts have not been balanced since ... when? WW2? Even then, at a lower level (i.e., in any particular theatre, in any particular time period), balance was rarely there: one side or another usually had the advantage in quality or quantity. Then again, on the really local level, even in the most asymmetrical conflict, there usually is enough ebb or flow so that balance is achieved, otherwise there would not be a conflict?

 

Ok, sorry, being pedantic and probably to a crowd that knows so much more about the above details than me ...

 

Back to the point at hand, the issue is that we want achieve sufficient balance so that two-sided MP remains interesting. The obvious solution is the title of this thread: load up with aircraft. Here the fidelity is achieved in an aircraft-level of detail (ASM + PFM), but we are relaxing all other attempts at realism in the bigger picture (logistics, strategic planning, etc.)

 

But maybe the "balance" can come in other ways?

 

E.g., servers can allow a 1:10 or even a 1:20 ratio of aircraft? This is implements a balance by implementing realism on a different level, as, in fact, both NATO and WP strategy was actually conditioned on RED making up for individual aircraft capability by numbers.

 

See, for e.g.:

 

https://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/b2ec1735-8652-40b0-ae04-a9e30a5597cd/Kamikazes--The-Soviet-Legacy.aspx

 

Same goes for the Western projections of the Fulda Gap scenario and the supposed role of the A-10C etc.! So BLUE may have that 2-ship 4th generation, but it is going to have to have to handle dozens of 4-ship 3rd or 2nd generation.

 

Or maybe it is balance by other means: e.g., the upcoming Tu-22 by Troika .... dozens of these come in and hammer the BLUE airfields. No matter how good their aircraft, if they cannot take off, it is useless?

 

Of course if we want even more realism, then documents released show that the primary WP/Soviet strategy for a European land war was not "throwing a thousand tanks through the gap" but rather "NUKE EVERYTHING FROM UKRAINE TO FRANCE" (exaggerating for effect), which throws all arguments/analyses/discussion about not just balance but any sort of tactics/strategy from the Western side out of the window.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Bearfoot

[sirscorpion]

I do hope its possible to get more red aircraft, the true gap now IS:

 

-Mig-23ML/Mig-25PD, Those are old aircraft, will fit nicely with nearly every thing coming from blue aside from the High end spectrum.

 

-Any fast attacker is also welcome Su17M3, Su24M, simply one of those even if at the quality of the su25T, will add "strategic" equivalency to blue F-18c.

 

And omni Aircraft like Su27SM, SM2 or Even SU27P, even if its at S25T quality or between DCS and FC3. will be a great tool for Red over the long streatch of none blue aircraft.

 

My wish is for a Mig31BM as a red aircraft but i know thats hard to obtain.

 

And working with actual aircraft OEM in RL, I am quite sure with the right sales pitch you can get a lot of information and licences. people forget that are are commercial companies and need sales and making a sim model is always cheaper than 20 hours total of flight demos. Its much easier to get general or "good enough" information than people think.

 

Last thing its about interest in red aircraft, not just balance. adding some new items "or at least planing for it" is a good thing. there is also a larger and larger Russian player base thats entering the "more expensive side of simming" thanks to casual games like Warthunder, there will be a new generation of pilots who simply want more fidelity.

[Zettman]

IL-2 BoS & BoM : Half assed thing between sim/game, with unlocking crap as if it's an MMO like WT...

 

They pretty much removed all the unlocks in the latest version. They don't have a fully clickable cockpit, but I would start to considering them a full sim again. After they noticed that they couldn't get any new players with these 'fancy stuff' like unlocks, they switched their policies. They are even announced to introducing the good old Tante Ju as flyable plane.

 

 

What we REALLY need is more Vietnam era aircraft! :pilotfly:

 

This. I enjoy my MiG21 and would really love a F-4 Phantom to counter it.

 

A MiG23 to counter the upcoming F14 would also be nice. Genrally I would like to see the concept of planes being developed and released in pairs. So that you always have an enemy from your era.

 

Zettman

Edited August 12, 2016 by Zettman

[Domcho]

I concur we need more Eastern aircraft, or atleast develop the current 4th generation to not only PFM but also ASM. As a fan of Russian aircraft it feels depressing to hear that the next project is another Western or WW2 plane while the Flaming Cliffs 3 pack doesn't have full PFM yet, not to mention ASM which is, I think, not even planned at all.

 

I see ED are putting a lot of effort in their current in developement modules as well as improving and combining the Caucausus map with the NTTR in 1 game (not to mention that they're doing this for free). That's great and until they finish their current work and free their hands we can't possibly hope to hear for another new major project. Once they finish their big project - the F/A-18C Hornet I am really hoping to see plans for the development of at least 1 Russian aircraft to ASM, whether it will be the Su-33 that's getting a PFM or the MiG-29 after it. As owner of FC3 I am even willing to pay for such an upgrade as I understand that ASM takes a lot of hard work due to its developement complexity and I believe such thing deserves to be paid for rather than given for free.

 

After all, the reason you pay such a small amount of money for 6 aircraft is because they lack ASM. And we've heard that the 2 remaining aircraft Su-33 and MiG-29 are getting a PFM for free, I don't see why, unless legal issues don't allow it, ED starts developing ASM for each FC3 aircraft and 1 by 1 separates them from FC3 pack until all (excluding A10A for obvious reasons) are done and put back into the fully developed FC3 pack for the equivalent price of course.

[Bearfoot]

After all, the reason you pay such a small amount of money for 6 aircraft is because they lack ASM. And we've heard that the 2 remaining aircraft Su-33 and MiG-29 are getting a PFM for free, I don't see why, unless legal issues don't allow it, ED starts developing ASM for each FC3 aircraft and 1 by 1 separates them from FC3 pack until all (excluding A10A for obvious reasons) are done and put back into the fully developed FC3 pack for the equivalent price of course.

 

Prediction: if ED ever sells any FC3 aircraft souped up to a full PFM + ASM, no matter how much extra work and detail and effort goes into it, if they try to sell it as separate module, the amount of whining and bawling and rage and accusations and complaints etc. that these "upgrades" are not free will be deafening. Here and other places, e.g. reddit. Because we users can be a bunch of irrational cheap entitled brats. :( :( :(