[FIXED] HUD: A picture is worth a thousand words?

[randomTOTEN]

Here is my understanding of the HUD projection issue.. why it was so strange before, why it works so well for current VR users, and why 2D users are having such a problem. It also touches on RL aircraft design philosophy, of which I remain ignorant.

 

 

I've put in several flight hours on the new cockpit with TrackIR and have become very accustomed to the HUD projection. I am forced to slightly adjust my head to see required information, but at this point the process has become completely natural to me. I'm not opposed to an improvement.. but this thread is for understanding the design choices of the RL HUD and DCS.:thumbup::smartass:

[Emmy]

This appears to hit the nail squarely on the head.

 

Guess we’ll wait and see how this gets resolved.

[EasyEB]

Thank you for taking the time. Hope ED can fix this for monitor users.

 

Shouldnt this be a problem for all modules?

[Swift.]

I think this affects all modules, but is only a problem in A10 because of how spread all the information is. If you look at the f18 HUD the ZTime clock on the left is cut off when having the altitude visible on the right.

[r4y30n]

Why would a HUD be designed so that only one eye can see some of the information? Seems to me like that would give you a headache...

[randomTOTEN]

Shouldnt this be a problem for all modules?

This is a very good question, and I realized I can't think of a good answer for that. I have some further thoughts on the HUD situation.

 

 

None of the other modules really have this problem (I'll check out the F/A-18C), in fact, I've never heard of stereo vision discussed in relation to HUD viewing in combiner glass. Discussions of stereo (3-D) vision almost always relate to the display being focused at infinity.

 

 

 

I pondered the same thing r4y30n just asked. Why would only some parts of the HUD be visible to only 1 eye? That doesn't make sense. So then I thought "well, the A-10 has received many upgrades throughout it's life; perhaps they didn't have room for a full HUD"

 

 

But there are no pictures of an A-10 cockpit with anything other than the present HUD. So, it's always been there, and they've always had that space to design a display.

I should have tried drawing the images to better scale. The HUD is probably 8-10 inches wide, while I estimate only 2.5-3" between my eyes. Thus, extra viewable angle must be very very small, to make the idea negligible. Not like what we see in the current cockpit. But, how do we explain the good results for VR? Are their FOV's set correctly? Is the virtual distance between the eyes correct?

 

 

So, why's our HUD so big then? Well.. I assumed that ED moved the eyepoint forward to display the full HUD in the original version. But what if it's the reverse order of events, and they created an enlarge HUD to fill the combiner glass with such a far forward eyepoint??? Never taking into account the geometry of the HUD display, or else taking "artistic license" with the cockpit. Thus, the HUD hasn't changed at all, and didn't "break" with the update... instead... it's always been broken.. and we've never realized it until the inaccurate eyepoint was fixed.

 

 

I'll have to take some measurements next week when I get back home to see how accurate the present eyepoint is. I suspect that 'resizing' the HUD is going to be no simple process.. since that will likely distort all target/waypoint/TGP/TDC/MAV/CCIP/pitch ladder parallax.... meaning they might have to almost completely rebuild the HUD

Edited December 22, 2019 by randomTOTEN

[SkateZilla]

Why would a HUD be designed so that only one eye can see some of the information? Seems to me like that would give you a headache...

 

A-10C's use the same HUD Combiner as the A-10A's which displayed LESS Data.

[Weta43]

You spend your entire life with your left eye seeing a different area to your right, and your brain is made to deal with it naturally - no headaches inbound.

 

Look down at your own nose right now.

Ever seen the left side of your nose with your right eye ?

[r4y30n]

But your eyes are meant to see the same thing with slightly different perspectives, not two totally different things at the same time. If an object is red in one eye and blue in the other there's a dissonance that will mess with your head. Likewise, if one eye sees an object the other eye can't see at all there's a similar dissonance.

 

This is the same problem that occurs at the edges of monitors and TVs running 3D, one eye can always see a wider FOV than the other at any given edge.

 

Put another way, imagine you strap together a spotting scope and a rifle scope to make a pair of binoculars, assuming the only difference is one eye sees a reticle and one doesn't. Imagine trying to shoot a target, particularly if the reticle is in front of your non-dominant eye.

Edited December 23, 2019 by r4y30n

[Weta43]

But your eyes are meant to see the same thing with slightly different perspectives, not two totally different things at the same time. If an object is red in one eye and blue in the other there's a dissonance that will mess with your head. Likewise, if one eye sees an object the other eye can't see at all there's a similar dissonance.

 

About half of your vision is made up from one eye seeing something the other can’t:

[dali]

@ r4y30n, try covering left and right eye, you will see that you don't loose perspective, but side vision. Our eyeballs are not like the ones of the Chameleon

[EasyEB]

@ r4y30n, try covering left and right eye, you will see that you don't loose perspective, but side vision. Our eyeballs are not like the ones of the Chameleon

 

That is heavily dependant on range. Close your left eye and hold out your arm and use one finger to cover a far away object, now open your left eye and close your right eye.

[Siegfried]

I have less vision from my right eye, that is why I have problems to see clearly the left side of HUD in VR (Speed scale for example) with head perfectly centered. In Fw190 and Bf109 I have problems too. This is not a problem for real pilots because all of them have a good visual health but sim pilots not necessary.

 

With helmet mounted display I have the same problem but fortunately DCS let me change it to left eye recently.

 

Maybe this help to understand the people who don't understand the way the HUDs are made.

[Wags]

Here is my understanding of the HUD projection issue.. why it was so strange before, why it works so well for current VR users, and why 2D users are having such a problem. It also touches on RL aircraft design philosophy, of which I remain ignorant.

 

 

I've put in several flight hours on the new cockpit with TrackIR and have become very accustomed to the HUD projection. I am forced to slightly adjust my head to see required information, but at this point the process has become completely natural to me. I'm not opposed to an improvement.. but this thread is for understanding the design choices of the RL HUD and DCS.:thumbup::smartass:

 

Correct a good post. I've attached a couple real world images that illustrates the limitation of a 2D view.

 

Thanks

[Emmy]

So are we saying that TrackIR users are just SOL ?

[SkateZilla]

So are we saying that TrackIR users are just SOL ?

 

Nothing like that has been said, it was simply acknowledged that the problem is a viewpoint/stereo eye problem due to real life constraints.

 

VR Doesnt have the problem due to left eye/right eye rendering.

 

2D w/ or w/o Motion Tracking has the problem because it's a single center viewpoint and not left / right offset viewpoints combined.

[Emmy]

Nothing like that has been said, it was simply acknowledged that the problem is a viewpoint/stereo eye problem due to real life constraints.

 

VR Doesnt have the problem due to left eye/right eye rendering.

 

2D w/ or w/o Motion Tracking has the problem because it's a single center viewpoint and not left / right offset viewpoints combined.

 

I completely understand the physics behind the problem. I’ve worked in imaging for 35 years.

 

I want someone at ED to say that they are not abandoning 2D users because I have to say, so far, there’s a definite “Too Bad So Sad” vibe. The latest two pics from Wags sure feel like “Sorry 2D users but this is all you’ll ever get.”

 

This is not a new module where WIP is an acceptable defense. This is one of THE most mature, complete and “fully cooked” aircraft in the DCS world that some players have been flying for 15+ years. It’s one of the modules that has hooked people into DCS for quite some time. It’s a flagship module.

 

Not everyone can or will run VR so to make the A-10C an aircraft a significant percentage of the community can’t or don’t want to fly just plain sucks.

 

/rant

[randomTOTEN]

Thanks for the real world HUD pictures from the pilot's eyepoint, I think that perfectly answers the question about HUD parallax. I hope there's an option to keep it in it's current, "most realistic" state.

 

 

What a neat detail.

[NineLine]

I completely understand the physics behind the problem. I’ve worked in imaging for 35 years.

 

I want someone at ED to say that they are not abandoning 2D users because I have to say, so far, there’s a definite “Too Bad So Sad” vibe. The latest two pics from Wags sure feel like “Sorry 2D users but this is all you’ll ever get.”

 

This is not a new module where WIP is an acceptable defense. This is one of THE most mature, complete and “fully cooked” aircraft in the DCS world that some players have been flying for 15+ years. It’s one of the modules that has hooked people into DCS for quite some time. It’s a flagship module.

 

Not everyone can or will run VR so to make the A-10C an aircraft a significant percentage of the community can’t or don’t want to fly just plain sucks.

 

/rant

 

Are you seeing an issue where you can't use the new cockpit with TrackIR? While I have VR, most of my work ends up with TrackIR, and I really haven't had any issues with the new HUD, beyond a small amount of info cut off if I don't move my head.

[Stuka]

So, trackIR is now part of the minimum system requirements for the Hog? Without it, you can’t use the HUD.

 

I think the best might be to have an option for the A-10, that let’s you choose between 2D and 3D optimisation of the cockpit.

The goal should be that the sim is usable for all customers, having VR, TrackIR, or none of that.

[sirrah]

Off topic:

 

This is one of THE most mature, complete and “fully cooked” aircraft in the DCS world that some players have been flying for 15+ years

Really? So people started playing the A-10C module 5+ years prior to its release in 2010? :renske: :smilewink:

[lxsapper]

Really people are making a huge deal about this, when you can just move your default viewpoint to closer to what it used to be. Problem solved IMO or at least it will be the same as before, which was always a compromise.

[Snoopy]

I’m holding off judgement until the first weekend of January. I then plan to ask multiple pilots at the 76th Ops Desk Saturday morning when I meet with them to discuss the flying day their opinion on the HUD in DCS with pictures. personally I don’t recall having any issue seeing info in the HUD while performing Ops Checks over my career but I’ve also been in Production now for 5 years (meaning I run the flightline now).

 

Then on Sunday I’m flying the A-10C simulator at Moody AFB, this will be my second time flying this simulator and I know for a fact that has zero issues seeing the entire HUD display. This also leads me to believe that if truly truncated in the real jet they would have the same in the simulator.

 

Lastly the below picture Wags posted is not from the pilots eye view. That view would be looking up slightly from the level of my chest when I sit in the cockpit.

 

 

This one is closer but IMO is a little higher than eye level.

 

Edited December 25, 2019 by Snoopy

[Fri13]

Off topic:

 

 

Really? So people started playing the A-10C module 5+ years prior to its release in 2010? :renske: :smilewink:

 

Aircraft, not module. A-10A and A-10C share same cockpit.

 

Since Lock-On the A-10 has been possible fly....

[sirrah]

Aircraft, not module. A-10A and A-10C share same cockpit.

 

Since Lock-On the A-10 has been possible fly....

Ok

Thought he was talking about the C specifically.. Hence my wiseass comment :D