Concern about Hornet development goals.

[Steel Jaw]

Instead of pestering ED for inconsequential things like A2G radar (which is rarely used in real life)

 

 

Agree on the jamming, but what are you basing that assumption on? I use it ALL THE TIME in BMS. IMHO it is vital to effective mud missions. Without A2G radar, and not cheating with the F10 map, how else am I finding ground targets, particular moving ones?

Edited February 26, 2020 by Mower
spelling

[Steel Jaw]

That's because BMS AG Radar is unrealistically optimistic

 

 

Cant speak to that, but my point is still valid on its utility in mud moving.

[POLARIS1]

Can’t agree more regarding how basic is A2G radar almost as much as A2A radar.

Flying CAS, SEAD, Interdiction or any A2G mission without it doesn’t make much sense, to me.

It is not a “feature” but as basic as wings or engines with either the Fighter/Attack-18C or the Viper.

While I realize the Hornet will not be whole in the near future...having A2G radar is a make or break issue...at least for me.

I do understand the development challenges regarding it and that it takes time.

But...it was promised and this promise I expect ED to fulfill and not in a few years from now...

[CarbonFox]

Hoping the Hornet can be completed this year but not expecting it to be. While I would very much like to see A-G radar, I'd like to see more current features finished first. ie Tpod, Datalink, MUMI page, ACM, etc.

[fmedges]

You could ask that of a building developer who build the same houses over and over again. How hard can it be to estimate how long to build the next? Yet still they are notorious for delays. Blame it on the weather like it doesn't usually rain in winter...

 

What makes IT projects more complex is it isn't usually repeating tasks previously done but creating something new, even if it is just adding up sales of widgets by geographic region.

 

Add the complexity of real pioneering work and determining what is realistic is incredibly hard, they simply don't know how long it will take and many find that simply unacceptable and demand a timescale which is nothing more than guesswork.

 

Nobody is saying that it isn’t a challenge, but we’re saying be honest with your customers as to how your plan is going. We would all like a more realistic plan and dates instead of an overly optimistic plan where dates constantly slip. I believe the internet is great because unlike before you can patch games relatively easy. The downside to that is unlike before companies can release products in a state that would of never came to market years ago. I understand this is early access so it’s a bit of a different animal but today’s model is really built on consumer trust. We trust these companies to do what they say in the future and in turn we pay them up front for an incomplete product. I feel my trust at least in ED is eroding.

[Harlikwin]

Incorrect

 

VIPER and HORNET team are not working on super carrier.

 

We understand your concerns, but early access does take a lot of time.

 

Feature complete this year 2020 is our goal.

 

Thanks

 

With all respect, I do hope this is the case. But if its really the case and you want the community to take you seriously; I would hope to see some seriously feature rich updates in the next few months for both modules, because there is a ton of work to be done on both IMO. And maybe you have your new FLIR model for the ATFLIR ready to go, and an improved EW system and AGR and so forth just sitting on the back burner almost ready to go. But both of those are implied to be part of the modules. The AGR at least seems to be partly done and in the JF17 at least.

 

Also stating end of 2020 and EA takes alot of time are kind of contrary IMO. You have 9 months to finish both if its the end of 2020. Frankly thats not alot of time based on what I've seen of development in DCS IMO. But I hope you guys can do it.

[Harlikwin]

Seems kind of ironic, but I just found this, I find it quite amazing ED have not made a special effort to MAKE SURE all customers saw this communication,

 

For all those who never saw it (like me)....some good news and information here.

 

 

 

Yeah, I don't understand why this isn't pinned in the official news for the forum, but I have to goto reddit to find it.

 

Its seems like good news though. There is alot of stuff they expect to get done, which I'm gonna take a wait and see approach to. I think its way over optimistic based on previous ED performance, but I hope to be wrong.

[Baldrick33]

In my opinion there has been way too much talk and not enough walk in regard to this project.

And again, communication is key. Let us know what to expect next and what is realistically possible in a short term timeframe rather than just staying quiet

:huh:

[Krippz]

Agree on the jamming, but what are you basing that assumption on? I use it ALL THE TIME in BMS. IMHO it is vital to effective mud missions. Without A2G radar, and not cheating with the F10 map, how else am I finding ground targets, particular moving ones?

 

There have been numerous pilots and WSO's in this community when asked state that there is no use really for a/g radar apart from SAR mapping at low altitude. Today's air warriors primarily use the targeting pod.

[VpR81]

There have been numerous pilots and WSO's in this community when asked state that there is no use really for a/g radar apart from SAR mapping at low altitude. Today's air warriors primarily use the targeting pod.

 

I´ve read that a couple of times and it makes very much sense, but still there are pc-pilots out there (and i´m one of them) that love to use A/G Radar in various missions and pretty much rely on it. Also i would assume, that A/G(SEA) Radar is used in RL to find targets for the AGM-84 Harpoon in some situations...

[Paco]

Interesting thread.

Essentially most here write the same idea in different words or approaches.

What I don't understand is why some are angry at ED.

 

Looking at the facts, from ED's history along the years, its business strategy is quite apparent.

Not according to words and statements but actions.

They gradually invest less in making whole complete true to life modules and more on modules that satisfy features enough customers shall pay for.

 

It is abundantly clear, to me, that there is no way the Hornet will be complete in the A-10C standard in 2020.

I'm inclined to think it might never be there...unless some air-force signs a contract that will enable cost effective continued development.

 

More than that...the Hornet is not alone and while many like it (me included) there is no economical or other reason to invest resources into developing specifically the Hornet and not other modules at its state.

 

Last fact: combat jet simmers prefer to use DCS to other jet combat sims and they pay, each time, no matter what's the product's condition.

As long as the customers pay no mater what ED has no real incentive, profit for that matter, to invest money and personnel into making WHOLE modules.

 

It is what it has been for quite a long time.

Probably . . . ;)

 

Great post. Sad but true. Actions speak louder than words. As long as the majority of DCS customers exhibit addictive behavior and spend money for half-baked products, then there is no business incentive to finish modules in an even remotely timely manner...if at all. Wish it was different.

[Svsmokey]

Don't get me wrong . I am very grateful for ED's efforts . But if you think about it objectively , ED's financing vs module development is a bit like a pyramid scheme :)

[Coxy_99]

I hope deck crew has pitch forks................

[Baldrick33]

Great post. Sad but true. Actions speak louder than words. As long as the majority of DCS customers exhibit addictive behavior and spend money for half-baked products, then there is no business incentive to finish modules in an even remotely timely manner...if at all. Wish it was different.

The flip side to this is that in terms of pure economics there are far bigger markets to chase if profit is the primary business objective. It may seem to some like letting ED off the hook but I think there is some genuine appreciation amongst some fans that we are lucky to have DCS at all. If that makes us fanboys then so be it.

[LastRifleRound]

There have been numerous pilots and WSO's in this community when asked state that there is no use really for a/g radar apart from SAR mapping at low altitude. Today's air warriors primarily use the targeting pod.

 

I don't care. When I looked at the product page it said it would be there, I purchased in contemplation of that. It didn't say "fully modeled AG radar modes, unless some people on a forum prefer not to, in which case totally forget it"

 

Also, the theaters and conditions our (US) military are currently engaged are vastly different from the types of engagements simulated here. Low intensity conflicts at small scales on mostly point targets lead to TGP as your primary sensor. A protracted air war with a peer or near peer adversary forcing more all weather sorties will engender vastly different approaches. Supplies become more scarce, degraded sensor environments more common. The more numerous and sophisticated your enemy, the more tools you'll need in your tool box. AG radar isn't a panacea, but it's another tool in that tool box.

 

In Bosnia and desert storm, AG radars were used extensively.

 

And, oh yeah, they should be modeled because they said they would be.

[Mars Exulte]

Oh, look, a ''concern'' thread! I love these things!

[fmedges]

Yeah don’t include the ground radar that’s a great idea. You know if they just cut out the rest of the open items they could just call it complete.

[Shimmergloom667]

Like, with all valid concerns about progress, how the hell didbyou arrive at the conclusion no A/G radar will be implemented? There is literally nothing hinting at that.

[Steel Jaw]

There have been numerous pilots and WSO's in this community when asked state that there is no use really for a/g radar apart from SAR mapping at low altitude. Today's air warriors primarily use the targeting pod.

 

 

OK.

 

I guess I have to run through the whole point.

 

The A2G radar is used to *find* targets so you can slave the TGP or weapons to it, IE designate a SPI in the A10C or F16C. The GMT mode is INDISPENSABLE for this task; it guides you to the specific area to start a TGP search.

 

Finding targets with the TGP alone is a waste of time unless you know their exact location and, outside of cheating with f10 map or having a JTAC, when or how would you know a target's location?

 

I dont know what WSOs or the like you have heard but Id like them to come here and tell us their thoughts.

[BarTzi]

OK.

 

I guess I have to run through the whole point.

 

The A2G radar is used to *find* targets so you can slave the TGP or weapons to it, IE designate a SPI in the A10C or F16C. The GMT mode is INDISPENSABLE for this task; it guides you to the specific area to start a TGP search.

 

Finding targets with the TGP alone is a waste of time unless you know their exact location and, outside of cheating with f10 map or having a JTAC, when or how would you know a target's location?

 

I dont know what WSOs or the like you have heard but Id like them to come here and tell us their thoughts.

 

The magic of coordinates and good information? Can you tell a tank from a small shed or tree if it isn't moving, while relying on the A/G radar only?

[Harlikwin]

I hope deck crew has pitch forks................

 

Don't forget torches for night ops. With the new lighting system it should be amazing! :megalol:

[Harlikwin]

OK.

 

I guess I have to run through the whole point.

 

The A2G radar is used to *find* targets so you can slave the TGP or weapons to it, IE designate a SPI in the A10C or F16C. The GMT mode is INDISPENSABLE for this task; it guides you to the specific area to start a TGP search.

 

Finding targets with the TGP alone is a waste of time unless you know their exact location and, outside of cheating with f10 map or having a JTAC, when or how would you know a target's location?

 

I dont know what WSOs or the like you have heard but Id like them to come here and tell us their thoughts.

 

These days that sort of info is likely coming from a nearby predator or other sensor system. That whole network centric warfare thing, that we don't really have in DCS.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

The flip side to this is that in terms of pure economics there are far bigger markets to chase if profit is the primary business objective. It may seem to some like letting ED off the hook but I think there is some genuine appreciation amongst some fans that we are lucky to have DCS at all. If that makes us fanboys then so be it.

 

Agreed. If you're looking to make your fortune, DCS isn't the way to do it. In fact I'm surprised it's a viable business at all given how niche it is. I believe ED are genuinely trying to developing the best sim they can with the resources they have.

 

Which is partly why I'm frustrated they won't be more open, in order to reduce the incidences of threads like these.

[Steel Jaw]

DCS also needs more beta testers. Fore some odd reason they seem to disagree.

[fmedges]

What if your scenario is set in the 80’s or early 90’s, how useful would the ground radar be?