reported FPS Lost after DCS 2.7.7.14727 patch

[archer86]

Ed should fix that issue, the problem is definite, game is not same as before.  Why are we still trying to prove something?  Our hardwares and game settings are same, only one thing has changed "the 2.7.7 update".  This is the evidence.

Edited November 8, 2021 by archer86

[=37.Sqn= Mjugen]

3 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

THIS^^ should actually now be the title for this thread!

 

this is not working for me

[Boosterdog]

3 minutes ago, archer86 said:

Ed should fix that issue, the problem is definite, game is not same as before.  Why are we still trying to prove something?  Our hardwares and game settings are same, only one thing has changed "the 2.7.7 update".  Now that is the evidence.

The existence of a probelm for some has been demonstrated and reproduced by a DCS ground crew member. ED states however that the problem cannot be pinpointed. This irregularity in gaining and loosing fp has also been expereince by those of us who have continued to tried different things which supports EDs position. So whilst there is evidence, there is no solution at this time, hence some of us are continuing (perhaps pointlessly) to find a smoking gun.  

You are right ED should fix this. Im hopefully they will if they can get to the bottom of it but im equally doubtful it will fully return to the 2.7.6 performance. 

2 minutes ago, =37.Sqn= Mjugen said:

this is not working for me

Again - its was meant in jest as a title to sum up the the loss we are all at as to the reason behindthe loss and the random nature of it.

[Hiob]

We're not trying to prove anything to ED. The problem has been acknowledged already.

Everyone engaged in this topic here is just trying to voluntarily help in finding the root of the problem, or at least reveal some clues on where to search for the fix.

58 minutes ago, archer86 said:

Ed should fix that issue, the problem is definite, game is not same as before.  Why are we still trying to prove something?  Our hardwares and game settings are same, only one thing has changed "the 2.7.7 update".  This is the evidence.

 

There are basically two choices:

1. Wait for things to improve and be passive (apart from complaining)

2. Try to engage in the matter and help to find the problem....

It's on you, how to deal with it.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Hiob

[silverdevil]

another thing to keep in mind. Windows is also in the mix and with that said there could very well be something besides DCS causing issues. there are are quite likely many (perhaps hundreds / thousands) people that do not have any discernible problems day after day.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Like me. Same perfomance before and after.

[Raven434th]

hey WHY can they not just roll back to 276 graphics and add the aircraft fixes in and say "yeah we know there's an issue with 277 but we can't figure it out so here's an interm fix" doesn't seem to me as an unreasonable solution.

AND I'd like to know if this isn't something WE can do ourselves??

Edited November 8, 2021 by Raven434th

[Hoirtel]

4 hours ago, speed-of-heat said:

sure 

Not sure if you have covered this elsewhere - apologies if you have. Do you find that DSR improves things? I notice this is only a global setting....

Edited November 8, 2021 by Hoirtel

[Flappie]

18 minutes ago, Raven434th said:

hey WHY can they not just roll back to 276 graphics and add the aircraft fixes in and say "yeah we know there's an issue with 277 but we can't figure it out so here's an interm fix" doesn't seem to me as an unreasonable solution.

Fortunately ED don't work that way, otherwse we'll still be flying this good old DCS 1.5.

The issue is now reported. Wait a bit and see.

18 minutes ago, Raven434th said:

AND I'd like to know if this isn't something WE can do ourselves?

You cannot, unless you find DCS source code and you master C++.

[SMH]

Same. Used to see about 45 FPS when looking straight up at empty sky. Now get less than 30. (Suspect it's poorly optimized textures. My GPU only has 4 GB VRAM. Everything was fine before the October updates though.)

This is in all maps but Marianas is even worse. 

[MattCri]

2 hours ago, silverdevil said:

another thing to keep in mind. Windows is also in the mix and with that said there could very well be something besides DCS causing issues. there are are quite likely many (perhaps hundreds / thousands) people that do not have any discernible problems day after day.

i believe everyone has it and those who don't see the issue are just bruteforcing through 

seeing reports of no perfomance loss in 2d but necessity to lower the pixel density on vr to regain performance on the same system should point to a gpu bottleneck

 

 

[Boosterdog]

1 minute ago, MattCri said:

i believe everyone has it and those who don't see the issue are just bruteforcing through 

seeing reports of no perfomance loss in 2d but necessity to lower the pixel density on vr to regain performance on the same system should point to a gpu bottleneck

 

 

There is loss in 2D if you meant specifically 2D players. But its us lower spec vsync dependant potato pushers who seem to be suffering most obviously. Again those with bigger specs may be oblivious to any marginal loss that fails to impact on their specific settings. 

[av8orDave]

8 minutes ago, MattCri said:

i believe everyone has it and those who don't see the issue are just bruteforcing through 

seeing reports of no perfomance loss in 2d but necessity to lower the pixel density on vr to regain performance on the same system should point to a gpu bottleneck

 

 

This, 100%. I see no issue in 2d at very high settings, but have to reduce PD in VR and still have a significant loss vs 2.7.6. The refrain of “it’s probably lower end/older systems” is frustrating, as I have a fairly top-end machine. Hoping they get it sorted soon, but really, overall, the sim needs optimized badly. This wouldn’t even be a conversation if good performance in VR were a thing in DCS (in liberation or any sort of complex mission, decent frame rates on decent graphics settings look like ~40fps w/ my machine pre-2.7.7).

Edited November 8, 2021 by davidrbarnette

[MattCri]

this is because if you are running a strong gpu, say a 2080 or the newer 30xx series

most of the time you are VERY cpu limited with gpu headroom to spare, so any increase of gpu render time,up to a certain point, is basically invisible in your performance profile

there is no vodoo magic here

 

 

 

in my case it is immediately visible because my system (ryzen 3600 rx480) is gpu bound 90% of the time

Edited November 8, 2021 by MattCri

[Boosterdog]

11 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

 This wouldn’t even be a conversation if good performance in VR were a thing in DCS

Yes it would. The thread was started by a non VR player, has many posts reporting loss from non VR players and the issue affects non VR players. Maybe take of your headset long enough to read through it before posting such garbage. 

[Hiob]

8 minutes ago, MattCri said:

this is because if you are running a strong gpu, say a 2080 or the newer 30xx series

most of the time you are VERY cpu limited with gpu headroom to spare, so any increase of gpu render time is basically invisible in your performance profile

there is no vodoo magic here

 

 

 

in my case it is immediately visible because my system (ryzen 3600 rx480) is gpu bound 90% of the time

 

Sorry, plain wrong. 

I have a 3080 and am GPU limited 100% of the time. The only difference is, I can probably ramp up the visual fidelity much more.

[MattCri]

not plain wrong, id say partially

you should consider that a gpu is not a monolithic thing, you can bottleneck a single part  (say memory bandwidth with 4k and msaa) and have room to spare in other blocks (like compute and shaders)

[Hiob]

4 minutes ago, MattCri said:

not plain wrong, id say partially

you should consider that a gpu is not a monolithic thing, you can bottleneck a single part  (say memory bandwidth with 4k and msaa) and have room to spare in other blocks (like compute and shaders)

Yes, common knowledge, but even with my 6 year old 4790K, I can easily reach triple digit fps (on the marianas map) in HD when I tune down the graphics settings to a minimum, so tell me how am I remotely cpu-bound with my ryzen 5900? Oh and btw, the bottleneck in the this scenario - where every gfx setting is set to off or minimum (no 4K, no msaa whatsoever), IS STILL the gpu (1080ti in this case) with 100% load and max boost clock ALL the time.

Forget this „headroom“ nonsense.

[MattCri]

can you look at the gpu power? 

in very optimized games i can see your gpu drawing over 350watts, i can be wrong here but i bet it is drawing significantly less in dcs

[Hiob]

28 minutes ago, MattCri said:

can you look at the gpu power? 

in very optimized games i can see your gpu drawing over 350watts, i can be wrong here but i bet it is drawing significantly less in dcs

Sorry to disappoint you, it‘s drawing every single watt I throw at it… (in fact, it even shows power limit when I enable the option)

Just free yourself of the „everybody is affected, they just don‘t see it….“ thought. It is in itself illogical.

Edit: And don‘t get me wrong here, I know, that there is no such thing as strictly(!) gpu or cpu bound. I just wanted to debunk this „everybody is affected“-strawman

It would be much more beneficial to determine WHY some see fps deterioration and some don‘t. Even if it was by some weird reason, that the problem just happens to neatly fit into the „headroom“ of some lucky chaps. Find a common pattern for those with fps-loss.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Hiob

[MattCri]

in my case my gpu can draw 150watt max but is hovering around 100-120w in dcs, even at costant 100% usage and +25% powerlimit

well, if im right there is no pattern but the issue should be visible easily if they run a gpu profiler and trace a few frames.

Edited November 8, 2021 by MattCri

[Hiob]

That‘s not how power consumption works on an IC.

How much power a gpu or (cpu for this matter) draws is determined by voltage and clock speed, but also on the kind of command sets that are used.

Neither is drawing peak power a sign of „good optimization“, nor is drawing less than maximum (overall) power necessarily a sign of under utilization.

It may be hint, when the gpu used to draw say 150W with a given set of settings before and 120W and less fps with the same settings after the patch. But it does not hint to the gpu alone. It could as easy be a problem with the cpu scheduling (as I suggested at some point), or any software related hickup between the several layers of code, that lay between the happening on the monitor and silicone in your machine.

Bottom line. It is valid, and valid only to compare a given state with an earlier state of the same machine. But it is invalid to conclude that therefore everybody must have a problem.

 

Edit: See, even if two people had the same CPU, GPU, same amount of ram and so on. They will probably have different MoBos, different driver versions, different background processes, different windows and bios settings, different luck in the silicone lottery and so on and so forth. That is, what makes developing for PC as a platform so demanding, time consuming and expensive. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Hiob

[av8orDave]

2 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

Yes it would. The thread was started by a non VR player, has many posts reporting loss from non VR players and the issue affects non VR players. Maybe take of your headset long enough to read through it before posting such garbage. 

Goodness, didn’t mean to offend there, buddy. I think the point holds true with one key change… this wouldn’t be a conversation if the base performance of the sim weren’t so abysmal for both 2D and VR.

[Raven434th]

I'm not really convinced its a "yer puter got no umph" thing...I just went in and flew A flight sim that begins with i...and ends with a 2... on high settings WITH AA on compared to DCS with high and low with NO AA and its the other guy with constant 60(with vsinc for 60hz)  and DCS  its 30ish or lower.

[Boosterdog]

1 hour ago, davidrbarnette said:

Goodness, didn’t mean to offend there, buddy. I think the point holds true with one key change… this wouldn’t be a conversation if the base performance of the sim weren’t so abysmal for both 2D and VR.

Sorry Sir. I am a stupid arse at times. You didnt deserve such a rude response and your point is obviously valid. 

 

38 minutes ago, Raven434th said:

I'm not really convinced its a "yer puter got no umph" thing...I just went in and flew A flight sim that begins with i...and ends with a 2... on high settings WITH AA on compared to DCS with high and low with NO AA and its the other guy with constant 60(with vsinc for 60hz)  and DCS  its 30ish or lower.

Its been that way since I was strugling to get LOMAC past 25 pfs whilst maxing out Pacific Fighters - I somehow fugured modern jets neded more computing power.. I really hope ED understand the position some of us are in. I think they do. The current market just isnt ameinable to a power it out and hope for the best solution. 

In other news, and given some of the comments about the issue possibly being outside of DCS, Ive spent the day watching the 390GB of a fresh full fat Beta install download on my new puta.  Different processor from a different house (5600X),  a brand new unmolested Win10 pro install on a brand new 980pro M2 being pushed along with a brand new RM850X PSU. Save for 4 FPS, 2 of which I know have come from the cooler running 1080 in its new case there is no difference. Nada. Zilch. I didnt expect a boost given Im still tied to the 1080 but the issue of dropped fps has now affected me on two different rigs which I suppose goes some way to providing an alibi to windows, external software now absent on the new rig and the CPU/chipset. 

I regret ugrading then deleting the 2.7.6 Stable as this was running a full 15- 20 fps ahead of the OB and it would have been nice to see if the new CPU would have helped to reduce the syrian and pacific stutters given the fps would have been comfortably above the 60 in all my test scenarios. Ah well.