F-15E WIP Update Discussion

[Ignition]

1 hour ago, evilnate said:

The radar looks very powerful and useful, I hope it doesn’t get nerfed!

It should be very powerful but yeah I don't know how much compared to others.

[Ignition]

7 minutes ago, PD919 said:

It's all well and good for marketing but with the sheer volume of F-15E content it looks like it's out.  If I had just discovered DCS I'd being going to this forum wondering why my F-15E download isn't working because someone on Youtube seems to have theirs working.  We are talking 1000 sub channels here too.  I want a quality product more than it being rushed out the door, but if it works well enough for a content creator, it probably works well enough for people who ordered it understanding it's early access.  It'll still be buggy as anything on initial release.  No one will be upset about that.  If someone is upset about bugs in early access that's their problem.  I don't remember the Apache getting sent to that many people before release.  There were maybe a few previews and Wags.  If there was one or two previews and Notso's tutorials, I think the backlash would be minor or nonexistent.

 

The apache was made by ED. 100% of the revenue goes to ED which is not the case of 3rd party devs so they don't need to market their product outside of their own channels. If you want information of ED products you go to their channels, but a 3rd party may not have enough visitors so they prefer to give their preview product to well known content creators.

You're right about the first part, it may be confusing for new people but not a big thing either.

The preview copy of the youtubers it may be very very buggy and older version, watch the video of the razbam cold start for example and see how the engines work compared to any other youtube version. Youtubers will not complain of bugs since its a very nice opportunity for them to make lots of views, thats their goal. They don't care the aircraft isn't working fine yet since they only care of the views.

Bugs are a big problem in early access release, is the worst thing you can do because the community doesn't forget them.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Really? Most of them say they were showing preview version which may be changed upon release. Also, some GR videos stated very explicitly that the IFF was not working at all, at the moment.

Continuing above, again I guess they would not tell you the bugs, crashes, etc (except for one I guess), as it would be not helpful to anyone.

Edited May 25, 2023 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Cann0nF0dd3r]

20 minutes ago, PD919 said:

It's all well and good for marketing but with the sheer volume of F-15E content it looks like it's out.  If I had just discovered DCS I'd being going to this forum wondering why my F-15E download isn't working because someone on Youtube seems to have theirs working.  We are talking 1000 sub channels here too.  I want a quality product more than it being rushed out the door, but if it works well enough for a content creator, it probably works well enough for people who ordered it understanding it's early access.  It'll still be buggy as anything on initial release.  No one will be upset about that.  If someone is upset about bugs in early access that's their problem.  I don't remember the Apache getting sent to that many people before release.  There were maybe a few previews and Wags.  If there was one or two previews and Notso's tutorials, I think the backlash would be minor or nonexistent.

 

This for me is the main sticking point in this issue. I get the marketing aspect, and I understand release time frames. But the videos that have been flooding youtube aren't just previews by a few big content creators, these have been tutorials, full on missions that are being done by almost everyone with a DCS related channel. You'd swear it was released already or will be shortly because that's typically the pattern. Then to get smacked with a 2-ish month wait, it's understandable for customers to have a WTH moment. Whether it was ED or RB that made the decision to lift the embargo this far out and/or delay it after lifting it, it's not a good look. Just my two cents for what it's worth. 

[npole]

I agree, I left DCS for a while (old user...), I went back only recently and I wasn't following the scene at all.. so I've looked for the long awaited F15E right on Youtube.. I found many videos and tutorials that I was 100% sure that it was already out... soon after I've figured it wasn't ...but I got more surprised to know that it wasn't around the corner, I thought: wow, with so many videos and contents it's gonna being released "tomorrow".. but... nope! It's surely not an usual way to do marketing and legit hype, that thing seems to be owned already by the baker around the corner!

Edited May 25, 2023 by npole

[davidrbarnette]

1 hour ago, Jarhead0331 said:

This just adds to the state of confusion and frustration. If you don't have a date yet, why on earth did Razbam tease a July date in the Cold Start video? That July tease is what has triggered this crap-storm.  Yet here you are saying once a date is known it will be revealed.  By saying there is no date, what exactly are you now suggesting?  Could it be June? Could it be August? September? I guess anything goes. Regardless, this conflicting messaging is what drives everyone up a proverbial, and I guess in some instances, a literal wall. it is simply mystifying. The left hand needs to figure out what the right hand is doing and they both need to get on the same page before anything is communicated.  ED has been failing at this for years. Its either done on purpose or is a result of utter incompetence. I'm not sure which would be worse.

 

This exactly. On their twitter account, ED posts stuff like "The Strike Eagle is coming in hot and soon you'll be able to fly...!" (that is a direct quote), then will be like "No date is set yet. Everyone just needs to be patient. We'll let you know once there is a date."  

How is it "coming in hot" if no date has been set? How do they know "soon" when it is all up in the air?

[plane_crazy242]

There's a reason for the cliched 'two weeks' joke that everyone uses.  This just perpetuates it.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I get it, some videos really mention nothing regarding preview, e.g. Baltic Dragon AA radar tutorial.

[freehand]

58 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

This exactly. On their twitter account, ED posts stuff like "The Strike Eagle is coming in hot and soon you'll be able to fly...!" (that is a direct quote), then will be like "No date is set yet. Everyone just needs to be patient. We'll let you know once there is a date."  

How is it "coming in hot" if no date has been set? How do they know "soon" when it is all up in the air?

It is coming in hot the Sopwith Camel  it is still on the way 

Edited May 25, 2023 by freehand

[pii]

On 5/23/2023 at 3:23 PM, Agg said:

Growling Sidewinder did a preview video on the Strike Eagle more than a year ago, so I would't read too much into it. Hopefully it is very close, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

It was the cold start take-off one that he just did not some random video he did a year ago. 

[PD919]

18 minutes ago, plane_crazy242 said:

There's a reason for the cliched 'two weeks' joke that everyone uses.  This just perpetuates it.

They are transforming it to two months with this one.

[StrikeWolf]

5 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

And some people like to have an idea of what they are buying that maybe sitting on the fence considering a purchase, being able to show previews is helpful, also those who are excited to see more and more content for the F-15E will enjoy. If the content isnt something you like I totally understand, we wont be able to please everyone but we do try.

thank you

Okay, so newer member and all that jazz here I get it don't have much say or anything. However for whatever reason this statement been bothering me.

It feels as if you're saying oh we weren't getting enough of the Pre-Orders that we are wanting so we'll continue to push the date back and  have it so only a select few get it; so that they can flaunt it in front of possible buyers to possibly sway them into buying it, for more revenue etc.

I personally think there's a smaller crowd who "enjoy" watching the F-15e content being pushed; than those who have paid seeing this aircraft in action and not getting any sort of actual transparency. Either it be an actual EA release date, the manual, something to make it feel as those that have pre-ordered got something out of it besides watching DCS content creators fly it. 

 

I would love to be completely wrong on this; but like I said this is all based off my own train of thought on this statement.

[Predator-78]

If I can give my simple opinion about it, I can say that: if the release of the F-15 module is delayed for technical reasons, I agree with the development team, better to have an aircraft as improved as possible instead of one that doesn't work. If so, there would be those who would accuse the development team of releasing something broken and frustrating. If instead the delayed release is due for economic purposes, the situation would be very different and I could agree with those who support this thesis. Of course, I'm not happy either that some YouTube users receive the module in advance showing off videos of how it works. We're all ED testers to some extent, so our feedback to improve should be of some use.

Inviato dal mio SM-G998B utilizzando Tapatalk

[FZG_Immel]

51 minutes ago, Predator-78 said:

If I can give my simple opinion about it, I can say that: if the release of the F-15 module is delayed for technical reasons, I agree with the development team, better to have an aircraft as improved as possible instead of one that doesn't work. If so, there would be those who would accuse the development team of releasing something broken and frustrating. If instead the delayed release is due for economic purposes, the situation would be very different and I could agree with those who support this thesis. Of course, I'm not happy either that some YouTube users receive the module in advance showing off videos of how it works. We're all ED testers to some extent, so our feedback to improve should be of some use.

Inviato dal mio SM-G998B utilizzando Tapatalk
 

Oh yes. I would not forgive ED if they did that.

[bfr]

1 hour ago, FZG_Immel said:

Oh yes. I would not forgive ED if they did that.

If that were the motivation then the logical thing to do would be to release it ASAP (the price usually goes up from the pre-order mark slightly as soon as its available)

[NineLine]

5 hours ago, Jarhead0331 said:

This just adds to the state of confusion and frustration. If you don't have a date yet, why on earth did Razbam tease a July date in the Cold Start video? That July tease is what has triggered this crap-storm.  Yet here you are saying once a date is known it will be revealed.  By saying there is no date, what exactly are you now suggesting?  Could it be June? Could it be August? September? I guess anything goes. Regardless, this conflicting messaging is what drives everyone up a proverbial, and I guess in some instances, a literal wall. it is simply mystifying. The left hand needs to figure out what the right hand is doing and they both need to get on the same page before anything is communicated.  ED has been failing at this for years. Its either done on purpose or is a result of utter incompetence. I'm not sure which would be worse.

 

July is the current goal for RAZBAM and we share their optimism. That said, testing is dynamic and when MP testing is done many things can go wrong. We totally understand your frustration, but we are trying to give you something but managing expectations as well. Its a fine line obviously, and sorry if we have upset anyone, it is not our intent at all.

[Beirut]

9 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

I think there's room for both to be correct.

 

Agreed.

 

9 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

Comms hasn't been handled well and this is, sadly, situation normal.

 

But I don't see why it has to be the case. Personally, I think it takes conscious effort to handle something this badly. More effort, in fact, than to handle it properly.

 

9 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

Then you have all sorts of poor behaviour from a small but vocal portion of the community. The best one was the many people crying over the move of pre-order day (the opening of the window to hand over your money for nothing in return) complete with all sorts of absurd and hyperbolic comparisons. Moving the opening of pre-orders has absolutely zero impact on any of us (except for money staying slightly longer in our bank accounts) so why the drama? That's a people problem, not a comms problem. 

 

 

That's fair. But it's also fair to cite the effort put into the hype. And a lot of effort has gone into the "You want it!  You know you do! Pre-order Now Now Now!"  

 

That being the case, that the sellers are heavily invested in not only the hype, but in the hype to encourage people to pre-order, I still thing the burden is on the seller to have some sort of articulable plan they can share with the people they are trying to hype the pre-order money out of. Buckets of hype followed by stone silence and cryptic comments does not foster a happy customer base.

 

But certainly any complaints about the situation should be reasonable and written out in way that makes the complaint legitimate.

[Despayre]

8 hours ago, davidrbarnette said:

It is always surprising to me how many people seem to say stuff like "I don't understand all the complaining"; It is really very simple:

Razbam: "The release is imminent!"

Four months later: "We had a miscommunication. Looks like release is in July (maybe)."

ED: "The Strike Eagle is coming in hot and soon you'll be able to fly...!"

Two weeks later: radio silence. "We'll let you know a date when one has been determined."

^ For those who don't understand the "angst", the above is not a best practice for marketing and communication.

 

Sure, that's worth a small whine... but not the ridiculous lengths that I've seen some ppl go to... .you'd think Razbam had made them pay $1000's of dollars in advance or something, not LESS THAN a tank of gas, there's a limit to what's reasonable to whine about and not shockingly, the internet has once again shot right past that like it's not even a speedbump... it gets here when it gets here, if that pre-sale money was so important to some of those ppl, maybe they should reconsider their finances, and just wait until it's actually released, whenever that is.

[LorenLuke]

10 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

How would you have liked these fluctuating dates to be communicated to you?

If they'd given dates and then changed them, the same people would have been just as upset.

If they'd said nothing, the same people would be just as upset.

This was a consequence of their own doing. They had an announcement trailer for the blasted preorder (which they then delayed), for crying out loud. You don't see multiple threads in the Kiowa or Phantom sections stuffed to the gills with people lamenting the lack of communication or lack of a release date, and yet there's pages of the stuff here. 

It's all self-inflicted, at this point and for anyone who says to me 'people are just impatient', by all means, answer me why those other two yet-to-be-released modules don't suffer the same fate?

Could it be that RB started this whole hype train with 'The year of the Strike Eagle!' for the past four months? A train we're being told that 'we're almost there!' at every turn, and yet all the track seems to extend out to the horizon. 

Ultimately, that's the crux of this whole mess, because this is the only place I've seen people this vitriolic about timelines and patience. 

[Jarhead0331]

5 hours ago, NineLine said:

July is the current goal for RAZBAM and we share their optimism. That said, testing is dynamic and when MP testing is done many things can go wrong. We totally understand your frustration, but we are trying to give you something but managing expectations as well. Its a fine line obviously, and sorry if we have upset anyone, it is not our intent at all.

Brother...I'm not trying to argue with you. I appreciate everything you and the ED team do and I know you have a very difficult and often times thankless job. However, your response just doesn't make any sense. I wish you and the team could just acknowledge that the communication has been confusing at best and conflicting at worst. Starting with "imminent" in December 2022 and going downhill since then. Finally, RAZBAM teases a ridiculous (under the circumstances) July 2023 EA date in the official Cold Start video, followed by you coming here to say, in essence, "there is no date and when we feel comfortable with one, we'll tell you."  Can't you see objectively how crazy, misleading, and as a result - frustrating that is? Seriously, by any objective standard it's a total goat rope. 

I make these points because I love DCS and I want to see ED improve. I'm not angry, I'm not shouting and I'm not pointing any fingers. I'm not demanding a refund and what else am I going to continue to do, but wait, like everyone else...except for all those youtubers. I just ask that you try to view the situation from outside the sandbox and see it from our perspective. I know that is sometimes difficult to do.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Jarhead0331

[Pipe]

Never mind

Edited May 26, 2023 by Pipe

[Jackjack171]

So, this is no longer a WIP discussion! With all due respect, just like the poster 2 post above me said, "I love DCS". I love it too and these discussion threads for the wealth of knowledge that a lot of users share. But this incessant whining is becoming unbearable. I mean, I want my SE very much so, but obviously, it is not ready. ED and RB can explain all they want; it'll never be enough for some people. I also watched people whine in the Viper beginnings as well as the Apache. It never fails! Whining won't make it come faster. All of a sudden, everyone has a business degree from Harvard! I love it when those outside try and tell those inside how to run their business. I can't run a Wal-Mart and wouldn't try, don't know the first thing! There are things that we know and don't. The developers have apologized and explained up the Waz zoo! Things happen. Is it messed up, yes! But things happen. Let them (ED/RB) finish the work fellas! If you are like me, you probably have more than enough modules to fill out a month. Stand by for heavy rolls as the ship comes about. Next will be when the SE releases and there are still bugs, or the never ending, "what about this system" or "why isn't this thing in that thing." I now remember why I left Customer service and joined the Navy. 

 The YT videos make me glad I pre-ordered in the first place. I hope this thread gets back on track until the release. Feel free to flame-spray me all you'd like, it's just my 2 cents! 

[Mik75]

That's true and well said, but all this teasing, YouTube, Easter egg, two weeks/ months thing is starting to get a bit bizarre...

Edited May 27, 2023 by Mik75

[Iron Sights]

I would rather wait for a more finished product, so that when I am learning, massive changes don’t come and ruin what I have learned. I have enjoyed the sneak peek of the product and I think it was a good idea to let some people test it to help press out more bugs rather than me having to deal with it. Let me remind all that there are plenty ships in the stable that offer more than this early access will, so curb your expectations. If it’s, I just want to fly it, there is a F15C for you to vent on until it comes. I for one don’t know why the community is so upset, let them finish it please and release it when it’s ready. One last note, don’t preorder unless you understand what that means. It means when it’s ready you can just download it. It doesn’t mean that someone needs to rush it out because you paid early. I try to support this simulation so I will preorder something I want, but the experience after that is pretty much the same, if that makes sense.

[sirrah]

1 hour ago, Jackjack171 said:

So, this is no longer a WIP discussion! With all due respect, just like the poster 2 post above me said, "I love DCS". I love it too and these discussion threads for the wealth of knowledge that a lot of users share. But this incessant whining is becoming unbearable. I mean, I want my SE very much so, but obviously, it is not ready. ED and RB can explain all they want; it'll never be enough for some people. I also watched people whine in the Viper beginnings as well as the Apache. It never fails! Whining won't make it come faster. All of a sudden, everyone has a business degree from Harvard! I love it when those outside try and tell those inside how to run their business. I can't run a Wal-Mart and wouldn't try, don't know the first thing! There are things that we know and don't. The developers have apologized and explained up the Waz zoo! Things happen. Is it messed up, yes! But things happen. Let them (ED/RB) finish the work fellas! If you are like me, you probably have more than enough modules to fill out a month. Stand by for heavy rolls as the ship comes about. Next will be when the SE releases and there are still bugs, or the never ending, "what about this system" or "why isn't this thing in that thing." I now remember why I left Customer service and joined the Navy. 

 The YT videos make me glad I pre-ordered in the first place. I hope this thread gets back on track until the release. Feel free to flame-spray me all you'd like, it's just my 2 cents! 

Hi @Jackjack171

Fwiw; There is this "no discussion" WIP thread here:

 

It kinda died unfortunately (yet understandably), since there are now countless YT videos out there and no official WIP news, this nice thread became a bit useless.