Force Trim

[admiki]

Not having X65, but central  trim option should work for you. Other two won't, because they actually require joystick to stay where it is.

This being said, all of Apache is still WIP, so as you know it already, what should be working for you actually might not be working right now

[Swift.]

10 hours ago, admiki said:

Not having X65, but central  trim option should work for you. Other two won't, because they actually require joystick to stay where it is.

This being said, all of Apache is still WIP, so as you know it already, what should be working for you actually might not be working right now

Instant mode doesnt require you to have a 'stay where it is joystic'. Instant is the same as the options available in other DCS helicopters.

[jubuttib]

20 hours ago, Kayos said:

I am having a hard time with the TRIM !  

Anyone with a X65F, which option works best for you?  Those without a X65F, which would you use if your stick doesn't actually ever move?

Other helo's I don't have a problem, Apache, can't find anything that works.

One thing to note, is that when you're in "Central Position trim" mode, the stick in the Apache responds much better to inputs, and is very sluggish in "Instant" and "Without Springs" modes. This alone can make central position easier to fly.

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by jubuttib

[Kayos]

On 12/16/2022 at 5:12 PM, jubuttib said:

One thing to note, is that when you're in "Central Position trim" mode, the stick in the Apache responds much better to inputs, and is very sluggish in "Instant" and "Without Springs" modes. This alone can make central position easier to fly.

 

 

Thanks!  I'll give that a shot.

[HiJack]

On 11/3/2022 at 1:19 AM, poochies said:

Do you still get the odd sudden bank to the left like a large wind just blew you over in a hover ? Very annoying when you have a perfect hover no SAS saturation and this happens repeatedly, I'm putting this on the shelf until the FM gets figured out, I'm still glad I bought it in EA though shes a beauty

 

I had to get pedals and a new throttle for the Apache to be controllable so now it flies fine and is definitely something to attack ground targets from. I have used a Saitek X52 Pro for many years now and it works fine with all other rotors but not the Apache. I don't know if this will change as the flight model is developed but running this module now without pedals and a good precise throttle is not possible.

[ZQuickSilverZ]

I have my trim set to central trimming mode.

I have ran into something odd which I believe to be a bug.

 

Force Trim/Hold Mode Switch - R/UP seems to be disengaging one axis at a time.

For instance if I trim with my pitch forward I can't control pitch but my roll still works until I return to center. Then pitch works again.

If I trim roll left my pitch still works but I can't bank until I return to center. Then roll works again.

 

Every other helicopter in my experience disengages both axis until you return to center when using central trimmer mode.

 

Is this normal or a bug? Has anyone else seen this behavior?

 

VKB Gladiator NXT Evo.

 

[Chic]

Same behavior here.  Just can't speak to the bug question.

[Wolf8312]

On 8/18/2022 at 5:26 AM, Hotdognz said:

Well no more issues with force trim anymore, just moved to the new Winwing Orion Stick Base J2-2 with a F16EX stick and 170mm extension and using the damping kit which you buy as an extra.

This is a game changer for me in all the helicopters in DCS and especially the Apache, the Apache has just become so much easier to fly, I can even get it into a stable hover without using the hold modes.

I'm impressed by the Wingwing construction, its as good as the Virpil gear I have and so much better than the TM Warthog I had for 8 years

This video gives a good review and whilst its a paid sponsors video I found it informative enough to make the decision to buy and could see everything i wanted to see, after getting it this video does not really show how good it really is.
 

 

 

Actually seems rather superior to my virpil with no cheap plastic case, and nice robust warthog buttons.

[Sandman1330]

Cross posting this from a different thread as I think there may be value for those struggling to work the trim:

 

So, one of the Apache pilots would have to chime in for the Apache specifically, but I can tell you how I fly the 412 in real life. It has similar force trim and SAS / SCAS systems, though a touch less advanced than the Apache.

In the 412, I hold the FTR any time I am moving the controls. In straight and level flight, FTR is released and I let the SAS do its job. Anytime I adjust the aircraft attitude, I depress and hold FTR, set the aircraft attitude, and release FTR. This ensures the APIs (as they are called on the 412) always start out centered.

In the 412, if you push against FTR you are also pushing against the SAS, and it fights you. Then you end up with autotrim failures (same idea as SAS saturated).

I have tried this in the DCS Apache, and it seems the most effective way to control the aircraft without getting those unwanted movements. It doesn’t work perfectly as the center trimmer in DCS doesn’t work the same so you can still get a bit of jumping around when you release trim. You have to train yourself to recenter the stick immediately after releasing trim, and/or make very small inputs at a time. It’s a bit wonky.

So, how does this translate in game then? An example. On picking up to hover, I am holding the FTR as I pull light on wheels, and into the pickup. Once stable(ish) in hover, release FTR and let SCAS help. Your stick will be trimmed to near hover position, your yaw SCAS channel will be centered, and SCAS will help stabilize you in hover. This is the key to avoid attitude “jumping” when you depress FTR and the channels center, especially in yaw. You can even activate auto hover at this point. A minor adjustment to this technique is to hold FTR until light on wheels, then release it for the pickup. Now yaw SCAS will be near centered and SCAS will help you through the pick up.

Now to transition to forward flight, I depress and hold FTR, set the accelerating attitude I want, stabilize there then release FTR. Now again everything is centered, trim is set for forward flight, and I can engage att mode or keep flying manually with minor adjustments to controls, with or without FTR depressed depending on how minor the adjustment.

Decelerating back to hover is the hard part because of the self centering stick and FTR implementation in DCS. Now you pull the cyclic back to decelerate, but can only get as far back as centered because of your trim position. I am working on the muscle memory to initiate the decel with FTR depressed, release FTR and center the stick, then quickly reset trim and continue. It’s a bit wonky and not very realistic but without a proper non-centering stick it’s a challenge.

Anyway, I hope this essay helps. Ultimately it’s all a challenge because most of us aren’t working with proper sticks. I’ve played both with no springs and with springs, both have downsides. No spring means you can’t ever take your hand off the cyclic, can’t use att/hover modes, etc. With a human CPG I like this, as he can do most of the comms, nav input, etc. With George I have to do all that and fly, so I’ve settled on using a sprung stick. One day maybe I’ll buy a fancy base with dry clutches to get as close as possible to reality….

[Raptor9]

Yes, pressing and holding the force trim is the preferred technique when applying any significant adjustment to the cyclic or pedals, and then releasing it when the controls are set where desired. Tapping or "bumping" the force trim is ok for very small adjustments (say, a centimeter or less with the real cyclic), for the reasons you outlined in the comment above.

After years flying the DCS Black Shark with the same simulation of force trim with my X52 spring-centered stick and Saitek spring-centered pedals, as I decelerate I will let go of the force trim and let my physical stick spring back to center, and I will do this two or three times during the deceleration to ensure I don't run out of aft stick authority with my physical stick. I only ever hit the "Trim reset" when on the ground with the collective bottomed out.

The biggest thing to remember for those unfamiliar with helicopter aerodynamics is that, due to dissymmetry of lift, the faster you fly the more forward cyclic you will need to maintain your pitch attitude. This is why the nose rises as you accelerate. This requires a maintained forward cyclic position to maintain attitude. But when you decelerate, the reverse is true. You will need to progressively move your stick back to center(ish) to keep the nose from dropping as the aircraft slows and dissymmetry of lift becomes less and less.

These discussions on proper use of the force trim ("trimmer" button) are nothing new. You can find endless threads about it going back to the original release of DCS Black Shark in 2009. This isn't something unique to the AH-64, as Sandman1330 mentioned the 412. However, the key difference with the AH-64D compared to other helicopters like the DCS UH-1H (which only has a force trim and no flight computer augmentation) is that the force trim also interacts with the FMC's SCAS and Hold mode logics (as outlined in the Quickstart manual).

(FYI, the entire Quickstart manual is getting a comprehensive revision that will hopefully improve the structure and presentation of many chapters, such as the FMC and force trim)

[Flagrum]

I find it difficult to keep the a/c in a stable, steady attitude when I use FTR.

There is always at least a tad bit of difference in the effective control inputs, compared to the last trimmed position and what the SCAS thinks what is necessary. Now, when depressing FTR, the SCAS reduces it's input until we are back to my last trimmed setting. No matter how small the difference is, it is always noticeable to me - so sensitive as the Apache is. This usually then interferes with my intended maneuvering as I have no way to anticipate it (i.e. without active Controls Indicator).

This is most noticeable - and annoying - for example, when I am in a hover with active hover hold. If I try to change my heading and depress FTR, I am already drifting all over the place, most likely inducing involuntarily some PIO on top of it ...

[GremlinIV]

3 minutes ago, Flagrum said:

I find it difficult to keep the a/c in a stable, steady attitude when I use FTR.

There is always at least a tad bit of difference in the effective control inputs, compared to the last trimmed position and what the SCAS thinks what is necessary. Now, when depressing FTR, the SCAS reduces it's input until we are back to my last trimmed setting. No matter how small the difference is, it is always noticeable to me - so sensitive as the Apache is. This usually then interferes with my intended maneuvering as I have no way to anticipate it (i.e. without active Controls Indicator).

This is most noticeable - and annoying - for example, when I am in a hover with active hover hold. If I try to change my heading and depress FTR, I am already drifting all over the place, most likely inducing involuntarily some PIO on top of it ...

I feel for ya dude, this and other things are what i have been experiencing for some time now, i guess all we can do is document these experiences in the hope ED can get it working in whichever way it is supposed to.  I think anything else I/we say now is just non-pilot speculation, which often is of no help, but at least i get the frustration across..

However flyable the Apache is at the moment, wrongly or rightly it is still, Annoying...

[TZeer]

Just a quick tip.

Played around with the trim today, and put an alternate secondary trimreset mapping on my pinky switch on the collective.

Worked wonders in taming the beast while trying to slow down into hover, trimming while manual hover and hitting the trim while turning in hovermode. 

This is a temporarly solution until I can lower my cyclic and rest my arm on my thigh. 

I already have a Virpil with extension and curve set to 10 and only 1 deadband. But when trying to trim, due to how sensitive the Apache is, slight unintended movement in the cyclic due to trying to trim just makes it harder.

This way I can use only my fingertips moving the cyclic, while holding the trimreset with the pinky on the collective.