CPG in Multiplayer?

[Hook47]

On 9/13/2021 at 9:03 AM, jubuttib said:

To be fair to Polychop, as I understand it the exact reason it's such a mess is that they got fed up with ED faffing around with different multicrew solutions and having to do hacky stuff to get it to work at all, so they decided to wait until ED establishes a proper method of doing multicrew. Which they have been doing recently, with the Hind etc. Then of course they got busy with the Kiowa. The current hope seems to be that once the Kiowa is out they're gonna start working on the Gazelle too (lack of manpower to work on both at the same time, and switching between projects constantly isn't easy, so focusing on one at a time), and with ED's new multicrew system in place we might finally get functional multicrew on the Gazelle as well.

 

That's the hopeful way of looking at the situation, at any rate.

 

Many developers like to blame ED for these types of issues, but in my estimation the issue is much more likely an internal one. The Gazelle has been a mess for awhile know and while Polychop has acknowledged that fact, they haven't fixed it yet. ED has developed a great multicrew back end so hopefully other developers will leverage that. 

[LazyBoot]

On 9/13/2021 at 5:03 PM, jubuttib said:

To be fair to Polychop, as I understand it the exact reason it's such a mess is that they got fed up with ED faffing around with different multicrew solutions and having to do hacky stuff to get it to work at all, so they decided to wait until ED establishes a proper method of doing multicrew. Which they have been doing recently, with the Hind etc. Then of course they got busy with the Kiowa. The current hope seems to be that once the Kiowa is out they're gonna start working on the Gazelle too (lack of manpower to work on both at the same time, and switching between projects constantly isn't easy, so focusing on one at a time), and with ED's new multicrew system in place we might finally get functional multicrew on the Gazelle as well.

 

That's the hopeful way of looking at the situation, at any rate.

I think the current limits of the multicrew might still be a bit of a showstopper for PC, since seat switching will be required when there's no 2nd player

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all, 

 

please do not derail the thread with the Gazelle chat, keep on the subject of the AH-64D 

 

Thanks 

[Preendog]

So to confirm for the unknowing, for most multicrew aircraft in DCS, only a single station is selectable in MP, and only once that 'host' station is full can the other station be occupied?

 

And it's currently not known which station will be "host", or if ED will remove this limitation in the future?

Edited October 10, 2021 by Preendog

[MadMaxQcZ]

10 minutes ago, Preendog said:

So to confirm for the unknowing, for most multicrew aircraft in DCS, only a single station is selectable in MP, and only once that 'host' station is full can the other station be occupied?

 

And it's currently not known which station will be "host", or if ED will remove this limitation in the future?

 

Well ... Backseater is the main Pilot and Frontseater is the Copilot/Gunner... So technically the main station will be the Backseater. In the Hind in MP you can't enter the frontseat (gunner) unless someone is already in the backseat (pilot). So I don't know if they plan to remove that restriction (I have some doubt)  for the Apache... But in the Apache the Pilot can almost do everything the frontseater can do so that's a good thing at least.

[RazorbackNL]

On 9/9/2021 at 2:31 PM, Northstar98 said:

Personally, in MP, if a seat is unoccupied by another player, you should be able to swap seats at will, just as you can do in SP.

 

[Raptor9]

3 hours ago, MadMaxQcZ said:

Backseater is the main Pilot and Frontseater is the Copilot/Gunner... So technically the main station will be the Backseater.

 

Not sure if you mean literal "pilot" as in the person that flies or "pilot" as in one of the crewmembers on board.  However, to clarify some things depending on other people's interpretations...

 

There really is no "main" or "primary" crewmember in the Apache.  Yes, the backseat is certainly the one primarily responsible for actually controlling the aircraft itself, but in reality there is much more to it than just primary crewmember and secondary crewmember.  When operating in tactical conditions, the backseat pilot is essentially flying "single-pilot" in that the front-seater can't always back him up with many of the piloting tasks that one normally associates with a "co-pilot".  There are some things the front seat may take time to assist the backseat with depending on each other's workload and what the task priority is at that moment, but the level of assistance is quite dependent on the nature and complexity of the mission.  The front seat is normally very occupied with "gunner" tasks.  Operating the sensors, managing the radios, sometimes even coordinating and controlling the entire flight of Apaches.  The front-seater runs the fight.  The back-seater is there to enable the front-seater to do that.

Back seat/Pilot: Fly the aircraft, communicate with other pilots in the team for coordinating maneuvers and flight safety, provide security against immediate/close-in threats
Front seat/Gunner: Manage sensors, communicate with other gunners in the flight to accomplish mission objectives, coordinate with ground forces, attack targets from stand-off

 

In the AH-64A, each crewmember had very distinct roles and responsibilities out of necessity because very little could be done from both seats.  In the AH-64D, however, each crewmember still has distinct roles and responsibilities from a way to manage the fight, but with a lot of flexibility to back each other up, to take over certain tasks if a crewmember is task-saturated or incapacitated.  And who is actually in command of the aircraft is a whole other discussion altogether, since it could be either crewmember, or could vary depending on what military you reference, what kind of mission it is, or even what preference the crewmembers have that day.

TL;DR - a good argument could be made for either seat to be the "primary" slot, but if you asked me, I would say it should be the backseat.  Simply because the AI is a much worse pilot than he is a gunner.  I would rather miss a target because the AI gunner is incompetent than crash into the ground.  But I also think that the player should be able to swap seats in the multiplayer environment if he is the only "human" crewmember.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Raptor9

[MadMaxQcZ]

5 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

 

Not sure if you mean literal "pilot" as in the person that flies or "pilot" as in one of the crewmembers on board.  However, to clarify some things depending on other people's interpretations...

 

 

 

Sorry for that english, is not my first language so sometime it's not completely clear ... just to clarify for me the Backseater is the Pilot ... Frontseater Gunner, to keep it simple.

[Seapiglet]

I think on MP in the Gazelle the left-seat slew controls are bound to the cyclic. Weird and annoying, but just about usable. More of an issue is that the tv picture can get out of synch, and it is the right-seater’s view that counts, so the pilot needs to verify aim before firing. Most of it works in MC, but only if you follow a pretty specific sequence to get into the aircraft. More info on the PC Discord. 

[FalcoGer]

I would like to request to be able to swap between the seats in multiplayer if there is only one person in the helicopter.

Right now using multicrew aircraft in multiplayer with no one to fly together is a bit of an issue because you can only rely on the AI, which has it's limitations. You can't take manual control of the other stations. Of course if you have two people it would be optimal, provided both know what they're doing, but sometimes that's just not an option for a lack of people or lack of communication or just bad synergy or whatever else might prevent you from having a second human crew member. Or maybe you just want to fly alone, but in a multiplayer environment and you want the full range of options you have in single player (ie. swap seats).

 

It could work something like this:

 

In the role selection screen you can pick either position to fly the helicopter and swapping seats will not change the slot. When another person then joins the crew you will get moved to the slot you originally picked if you accept.

[brucewhf]

I tried UH1 Huey in several servers, and I was unable to change seat(eg., co-pilot, door gunner).

If this rule apply to  AH-64D, there's no way to jump between front seat and back seat in server. AH-64D could be useless when no friend to play with in community server.

[Diesel_Thunder]

It’s generally a server setting whether changing seats is allowed, or not in MP. It is not a hard rule that is not allowed ever. 

[Bailey]

The Mossie and Gaz are the only aircraft where you can freely switch seats while flying in MP. (Edit: And mi-8). Earlier this year ED confirmed that not being able to switch seats in the Huey, for example, is a bug. Hopefully it is one they squash before the release of the AH-64.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Bailey

[Sabre_Ewan]

6 hours ago, Bailey said:

Earlier this year ED confirmed that not being able to switch seats in the Huey, for example, is a bug.

Can you share a source for that? It isn't unheard of for them to change their minds day to day, but I've only seen them say that it's intentional and just the way the multicrew works.

[Bailey]

It was on discord. I cannot find the messages right now.

[shagrat]

Multi-Crew manning stations should depend on the setting "solo flight" on the special tab for the individual aircraft in the Mission Editor. When solo flight is checked, it should appear as a single slot and you should be able to switch seats.

The exception currently being the F-14 Tomcat from Heatblur...

The Huey seems to be bugged, indeed.

[Clayteng]

I was under the impression that switching seats in a server was not possible in DCS, except for in the gazelle and whatever else can do it as of now. Glad to hear we'll be able to do it in the Apache then.

[gzj3401]

2021/11/27 AM11点23分，Bailey说：

The Mossie and Gaz are the only aircraft where you can freely switch seats while flying in MP.

Don`t forget Mi-8

[Bailey]

8 hours ago, gzj3401 said:

Don`t forget Mi-8

Good catch. Thanks. Edited. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Bailey

[BIGNEWY]

On 11/27/2021 at 9:43 AM, Sabre_Ewan said:

Can you share a source for that? It isn't unheard of for them to change their minds day to day, but I've only seen them say that it's intentional and just the way the multicrew works.

correct I would like to see the source also. 

Switching seats in the UH-1H multiplayer is not possible by design, it would add an extra layer of complication to an already complex process. 

[Bailey]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

correct I would like to see the source also. 

Switching seats in the UH-1H multiplayer is not possible by design, it would add an extra layer of complication to an already complex process. 

 

On 11/27/2021 at 6:43 PM, Sabre_Ewan said:

Can you share a source for that? It isn't unheard of for them to change their minds day to day, but I've only seen them say that it's intentional and just the way the multicrew works.

Here are some posts that led me to believe the current implementation is not normal. 
Note "like any multi seat aircraft" and "..Huey, you can switch to pilot". These are searchable on the official DCS discord.

[Raptor9]

2 hours ago, Bailey said:

Here are some posts that led me to believe the current implementation is not normal. 
Note "like any multi seat aircraft" and "..Huey, you can switch to pilot". These are searchable on the official DCS discord.

Keep in mind in those posts he only says "multi-seat", which does not equate to "multi-player".

[Salvin49]

So this is a setting within the server then?  For example, I run Liberation on a dedicated server, and then play by myself on that server.  Can I change a setting to allow me to switch seats in the Apache?  Or is this still unknown?

[Raptor9]

36 minutes ago, Salvin49 said:

So this is a setting within the server then?

There is no such setting governing multi-crew options in multiplayer server options.  There are some Mission Editor settings that affect multi-crew, but people are getting confused over what their function is.  See the attached image below that shows the Mission Editor options for the UH-1, Mi-8 and Mi-24.

The UH-1 has an option for Solo Flight, but this does not affect multi-crew nor multiplayer.  When this option is selected, you will be restricted to just the Pilot/Right seat in the UH-1 when flying a singleplayer mission.  When Solo Flight is not selected, you have freedom to go to different seats in the Huey while in flight, just as you can in the Mi-8 and Mi-24; but this is only in singleplayer.  The drop-down menu simply dictates who has control priority, and when a request has to be granted or not.

Bottom line, it doesn't matter what these options are set to in the Mission Editor, or whether or not you are the only client occupying a multi-crew capable aircraft module.  With the exception of the Gazelle, as of now there is no DCS helicopter that allows you to swap seats when playing on a multiplayer server.  Whether that changes in the future, I don't know.  I won't speak to the Gazelle since I have no idea how its multicrew functions work in multiplayer.

If anyone has evidence proving otherwise, I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Raptor9

[Salvin49]

We should be able to enter as the front seater and just command the AI to start the aircraft for us though right?