DCS: F-14 Development Update - AIM-54 Phoenix Improvements & Overhaul - Guided Discussion

[tavarish palkovnik]

Motor or motors  because there are plenty of those.

Mk38 Mod.0,1,2

Mk38 Mod.3,4

Mk52 Mod.1,2

Mk65

Mk58

 

First three groups are with similar (nearly same) output and different and/or nearly same concept.

Last two motors are with similar/same output but completely different concept.

These last two are interesting because numbers circulating behind it on the Internet are just like in case of Phoenix very tricky

 

[GGTharos]

Yep, the last two are what I would be interested in

[Sindar]

54 pages of discussion and explanation. And the real picture online now is as follows: 1-2 F-14 players for the whole team of thirty pilots. A year ago it was 6-8 players per team. You can draw 54 more pages of charts, but it won't change the fact that F-14s are toothless junk now. That's why it's 40% off. He's unplayable online. That's a fact. It used to be the most dangerous enemy of all. And nobody's gonna change that. The developer gave all the answers half a year ago. Just suck it up and calm down. Nobody reads you anymore.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Sindar

[draconus]

On 12/1/2023 at 2:40 PM, tavarish palkovnik said:

nozzle throat diameter is 38,5mm

In the doc above it's 3.78in.

[tavarish palkovnik]

It says nozzle exit diameter is 3,78 inches (96mm)

Also that throat area is 1,81 sq.inches so throat diameter is 1,518” (38,56mm)

96^2/38,56^2=6,2 what is nozzle expansion ratio

Today I was doing lot of “mental gymnastics” about all these numbers, not sure but perhaps I managed to make some basis for Mk58 relatively to presented numbers. In coming days  I will show it, perhaps even tomorrow if everything fits.

 

[Frosty2124]

1 hour ago, Sindar said:

That's why it's 40% off. 

 

 

 That's not how that works chief . the discount is to encourage sales, not due to the fact that its "poor" this isn't a balanced game....or a used car dealership.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Frosty2124

[DD_Fenrir]

2 hours ago, Sindar said:

54 pages of discussion and explanation. And the real picture online now is as follows: 1-2 F-14 players for the whole team of thirty pilots. A year ago it was 6-8 players per team. You can draw 54 more pages of charts, but it won't change the fact that F-14s are toothless junk now. That's why it's 40% off. He's unplayable online. That's a fact. It used to be the most dangerous enemy of all. And nobody's gonna change that. The developer gave all the answers half a year ago. Just suck it up and calm down. Nobody reads you anymore.

 

https://giphy.com/gifs/vidiots-official-H62aA8TKX9GPSWPLk9

[Sindar]

3 hours ago, Frosty2124 said:

That's not how that works chief . the discount is to encourage sales, not due to the fact that its "poor" this isn't a balanced game....or a used car dealership.

That's right. Incentivize the sale of goods no one wants so they don't take up shelf space. It is not necessary to incentivize the sale of good goods. It will always be bought. And there will always be a shortage of it. It's called high demand. There's no demand for F-14s.

 

P.S. 30% off. My mistake.

[NeedzWD40]

4 hours ago, Sindar said:

You can draw 54 more pages of charts, but it won't change the fact that F-14s are toothless junk now.

I'd be curious to know how you've drawn that conclusion. I was never that big on the 14 to begin with (nor the air combat mission itself), but it's been an interesting module to use. In the ultra-modern era, it's going to have limitations and that's just a fact of life. Like the SA-5 is an old system that can be defeated in certain ways and methods, but you still have to do something when one of those freight trains comes hauling butt at mach "get rekt" and altitude "eye of sauron" at you. So too for the AIM-54, because you can do certain easy things to defeat it, but the mere fact that you have to react to it can make all the difference in the world.

Lately, in the ultra-modern space, I've just been using it to pick off high value targets. Being able to reach out and touch enemy fuelers and AWACS at 80nmi+ is quite a capability. My furthest was an A-50 at 94nmi. And unlike AIM-120 hits, an AIM-54 will knock them down. If I'm not doing that, then I'm using the long legs to deliver precision ordnance on target. The platform itself was built for a particular era, within particular limitations. The mere fact that it can be merely viable in the modern space is amazing in itself, considering that it's predominantly 1960s tech.

I bet if you walked the clock back to 1986-1990 prior to the AIM-120 and R-27ET/ER, you'd find a ton of people just hopping into F-14s with AIM-54 doomsday loadouts. That's just the stupid meta bovine excrement that characterizes DCS multiplayer. Players want to win, and they'll pick whatever is best to do that for the situation. For me, I want to do something interesting and see what happens. How can I knock down that modern advanced fighter with a cold war rust bucket, not how I can't do it.

[Frosty2124]

1 hour ago, Sindar said:

That's right. Incentivize the sale of goods no one wants so they don't take up shelf space. It is not necessary to incentivize the sale of good goods. It will always be bought. And there will always be a shortage of it. It's called high demand. There's no demand for F-14s.

 

P.S. 30% off. My mistake.

Why so salty ? There's nothing wrong with the cat, she's an old girl which more modern designs have taken lessons from and improved upon. 
It's the most faithful representation of an aircraft we have currently in DCS, and shes a challenge to fly.

Just  because you don't like something doesn't mean that it is automatically bad . based on the data and SME opinion it flies like it should, and when someone finds new data that highlights an inconsistency, HB change and update it. it'll never be perfect but all the constructive critiquing helps to get it ever closer

I'll also pick up all the toys and put them back in the pram for you  

Edited December 2, 2023 by Frosty2124

[falcon_120]

54 pages of discussion and explanation. And the real picture online now is as follows: 1-2 F-14 players for the whole team of thirty pilots. A year ago it was 6-8 players per team. You can draw 54 more pages of charts, but it won't change the fact that F-14s are toothless junk now. That's why it's 40% off. He's unplayable online. That's a fact. It used to be the most dangerous enemy of all. And nobody's gonna change that. The developer gave all the answers half a year ago. Just suck it up and calm down. Nobody reads you anymore.

but what's you point Sindar?

You want something "balanced" for competitive MP, or you want a simulation of the real thing? or none...:/

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Harlikwin]

On 12/2/2023 at 8:29 AM, Sindar said:

54 pages of discussion and explanation. And the real picture online now is as follows: 1-2 F-14 players for the whole team of thirty pilots. A year ago it was 6-8 players per team. You can draw 54 more pages of charts, but it won't change the fact that F-14s are toothless junk now. That's why it's 40% off. He's unplayable online. That's a fact. It used to be the most dangerous enemy of all. And nobody's gonna change that. The developer gave all the answers half a year ago. Just suck it up and calm down. Nobody reads you anymore.

 

LOL literally no one cares. The DCS MP, "need muh bestest jet or uber missile" mindset sucks frankly. The phoenix has been and continues to improve and be more realistic, which is what matters. And frankly the Cat is quite dangerous on most period apropos 70s/80's servers if its flown by a competent pilot at least. But you are right the days of the "I win button" are over and that probably makes some people sad.

On 12/3/2023 at 1:58 AM, falcon_120 said:

but what's you point Sindar?

You want something "balanced" for competitive MP, or you want a simulation of the real thing? or none...:/

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk
 

The easy "I win button" got taken away. Some people can't cope with that.

[RustBelt]

On 12/2/2023 at 10:29 AM, Sindar said:

54 pages of discussion and explanation. And the real picture online now is as follows: 1-2 F-14 players for the whole team of thirty pilots. A year ago it was 6-8 players per team. You can draw 54 more pages of charts, but it won't change the fact that F-14s are toothless junk now. That's why it's 40% off. He's unplayable online. That's a fact. It used to be the most dangerous enemy of all. And nobody's gonna change that. The developer gave all the answers half a year ago. Just suck it up and calm down. Nobody reads you anymore.

 

You fly a 14 to fly a 14. Who cares about its qualities as an eSports toy? You wanna eSports, you don’t want or care about the 14. 

On 12/2/2023 at 3:07 PM, Sindar said:

That's right. Incentivize the sale of goods no one wants so they don't take up shelf space. It is not necessary to incentivize the sale of good goods. It will always be bought. And there will always be a shortage of it. It's called high demand. There's no demand for F-14s.

 

P.S. 30% off. My mistake.

You don’t have shelves with digital goods. When it earns enough back, you can lower prices to allow more market access. Either through buyers who can’t spend $60+ on a toy, or ones who just never buy at full price. Digital goods work really different.

Edited December 5, 2023 by RustBelt

[Machalot]

1 hour ago, tavarish palkovnik said:

It is 5096/807 lbf vs mine 5148/790 lbf

You think this source refers to the Phoenix? 

[tavarish palkovnik]

No…it is now about AIM-7F and it’s motor Mk58 only I don’t know where to write about it  … sorry, I know this is not place for it.

[Sindar]

22 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

LOL literally no one cares. The DCS MP, "need muh bestest jet or uber missile" mindset sucks frankly. The phoenix has been and continues to improve and be more realistic, which is what matters. And frankly the Cat is quite dangerous on most period apropos 70s/80's servers if its flown by a competent pilot at least. But you are right the days of the "I win button" are over and that probably makes some people sad.

That's exactly what I was going to say. Why do you need 54 pages of charts and formulas if the developer has already solved everything? This plane belongs on cold war servers. Empty and lifeless.

[Naquaii]

22 hours ago, Sindar said:

That's exactly what I was going to say. Why do you need 54 pages of charts and formulas if the developer has already solved everything? This plane belongs on cold war servers. Empty and lifeless.

The real question is what you're doing here, the solution to your problem would be to not read this thread. The other people in here seem perfectly happy about their discussion.

[bernyssen]

En 2/12/2023 a las 14:07, Sindar dijo:

That's right. Incentivize the sale of goods no one wants so they don't take up shelf space. It is not necessary to incentivize the sale of good goods. It will always be bought. And there will always be a shortage of it. It's called high demand. There's no demand for F-14s.

 

P.S. 30% off. My mistake.

*cough cough*

[LTC123apple]

On 12/5/2023 at 12:23 PM, Sindar said:

That's exactly what I was going to say. Why do you need 54 pages of charts and formulas if the developer has already solved everything? This plane belongs on cold war servers. Empty and lifeless.

oh bless your heart

 

cold war is one of the most popular kinds of servers, and will almost certainly get 10x as popular with the (so far looking amazing!) f4e module

as for the f14 needing more charts and formula, the facts are with a product like this there is always room to improve, so more info being out there (as long as we dont got warthunder moments) is good for the devs (who are very much still planning to and currently still supporting the product!)

 

I really do not understand what you are complaining about

Edited December 7, 2023 by LTC123apple

[cheezit]

16 hours ago, LTC123apple said:

oh bless your heart

 

cold war is one of the most popular kinds of servers, and will almost certainly get 10x as popular with the (so far looking amazing!) f4e module

as for the f14 needing more charts and formula, the facts are with a product like this there is always room to improve, so more info being out there (as long as we dont got warthunder moments) is good for the devs (who are very much still planning to and currently still supporting the product!)

 

I really do not understand what you are complaining about

 

How far off is the current MiG-21bis module from a realistic Vietnam configuration (MiG-21F-13)?  It's got a bigger engine at a minimum, right?

[Quid]

On 12/2/2023 at 1:07 PM, Sindar said:

That's right. Incentivize the sale of goods no one wants so they don't take up shelf space. It is not necessary to incentivize the sale of good goods. It will always be bought. And there will always be a shortage of it. It's called high demand. There's no demand for F-14s.

 

P.S. 30% off. My mistake.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/shop/modules/filter/sort-is-popular/apply/

Of modules actually released (the F-4 is pre-order), the F-14 is still in the top 5, so I'd say the demand is still pretty high.

[Harlikwin]

On 12/8/2023 at 7:54 AM, cheezit said:

How far off is the current MiG-21bis module from a realistic Vietnam configuration (MiG-21F-13)?  It's got a bigger engine at a minimum, right?

Well, its pretty apples and oranges.

Aerodynamically the F-13 was much lighter and more maneuverable than the bis, but had a weaker engine. The bis is kind of a pig compared to the F13 aerodynamically and much heavier. Otherwise the F13 was basically a guns  fighter, but in VN service it could carry 2 R3S (improved aim9B) missiles. Unlike the Bis it had no radar beyond a rangfinder for the gun, and weird canopy arrangement as well (poor forward view). The DCS bis is a very poor stand-in for a VN era F-13... 

And overall the bis in DCS is quite dated and has a bunch of problems and inaccuracies with alot of its systems. 

[KoN]

On 12/2/2023 at 3:29 PM, Sindar said:

54 pages of discussion and explanation. And the real picture online now is as follows: 1-2 F-14 players for the whole team of thirty pilots. A year ago it was 6-8 players per team. You can draw 54 more pages of charts, but it won't change the fact that F-14s are toothless junk now. That's why it's 40% off. He's unplayable online. That's a fact. It used to be the most dangerous enemy of all. And nobody's gonna change that. The developer gave all the answers half a year ago. Just suck it up and calm down. Nobody reads you anymore.

 

This is very true 2023 .

I'm flying online in very competitive server , few years back this F14 was feared with it's loadout .

Now maybe two F14s on the server with Nearly all Phoenix missing it's targets. 

Now I know it's all about certain situations and chaff and jammer and ground and of course the enemy pilot evading ect. 

So what has happened. ??? .

Edited December 15, 2023 by KoN

[draconus]

19 minutes ago, KoN said:

So what has happened. ?

In short, it was incorrect then. HB got new data and corrected the overperforming missile, while ED took over control of the weapons from the 3rd party devs. It's not final though. We still wait for the new missile API implementation to make some minor changes and add more realistic capability and maybe better guidance from ED.

[KoN]

5 hours ago, draconus said:

In short, it was incorrect then. HB got new data and corrected the overperforming missile, while ED took over control of the weapons from the 3rd party devs. It's not final though. We still wait for the new missile API implementation to make some minor changes and add more realistic capability and maybe better guidance from ED.

Thank you , so what is this API implementation .

When you say over performing do you mean in jet propulsion or radar guidness

Ive been watching AIM54s being fired in the online servers and most of the 54s are missing its targets .

This is the A version which require permanent lock to hit targets Correct . ?

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by KoN