Tomcat is much harder to do aerial refueling than hornet

[Ddg1500]

Just tried to refuel with hornet just now, and I must say hornet is a joy to refuel, it’s stable, controllable, much less prone to oscillation,  unlike tomcat which is a much harder to refuel at all aspect, it’s sensitive, quite hard to precisely control, oscillation is significant and frequent,  and another things that is quite important is that tomcat’s refuel probe is quite far to the center of the nose than hornet, which makes it harder to refuels, I would say tomcat is one of the harder one to refuel in dcs as there is just too much rudimentary system inside tomcat, if you still find hard to understand, then just compare refueling tomcat like torturing and hornet like writing a slightly harder paper  

Edited March 19 by Ddg1500

[RaisedByWolves]

Ok

[Nealius]

FBW easier to fly than analog. Shocking.

[Jackjack171]

1 hour ago, Ddg1500 said:

Just tried to refuel with hornet just now, and I must say hornet is a joy to refuel, it’s stable, controllable, much less prone to oscillation,  unlike tomcat which is a much harder to refuel at all aspect, it’s sensitive, quite hard to precisely control, oscillation is significant and frequent,  and another things that is quite important is that tomcat’s refuel probe is quite far to the center of the nose than hornet, which makes it harder to refuels, I would say tomcat is one of the harder one to refuel in dcs as there is just too much rudimentary system inside tomcat, if you still find hard to understand, then just compare refueling tomcat like torturing and hornet like writing a slightly harder paper  

 

Not to be that guy but refueling in the Tomcat is not that difficult. Trim it out, set the wings to "bomb" or not and go at it. The Hornet is easier because of the Flight Controls but it's still the same song and dance. And I must admit, while performing AAR in a turn is a bit attention holding, the challenge is where it's at! AAR is basically flying form! I keep seeing these post on AAR and about how difficult it is...makes me wonder. Congratulations on making it work though!

[speed-of-heat]

Something that I found difficult until I realised that both wing swing and maneuver flaps help with the trim needed for level flight.. Bomb position is a good starting point, but, vary the wing dependant on the tanker speed...

[RustBelt]

On 3/18/2024 at 10:05 PM, Ddg1500 said:

Just tried to refuel with hornet just now, and I must say hornet is a joy to refuel, it’s stable, controllable, much less prone to oscillation,  unlike tomcat which is a much harder to refuel at all aspect, it’s sensitive, quite hard to precisely control, oscillation is significant and frequent,  and another things that is quite important is that tomcat’s refuel probe is quite far to the center of the nose than hornet, which makes it harder to refuels, I would say tomcat is one of the harder one to refuel in dcs as there is just too much rudimentary system inside tomcat, if you still find hard to understand, then just compare refueling tomcat like torturing and hornet like writing a slightly harder paper  

 

Yeup, as in life, also in sim.

[Spurts]

Try the Harrier where the probe is 90 degrees to your left. 

[Hayrake YE-ZB]

Of course the Hornet is easier to tank. McD knew it would have to refuel every twenty minutes to stay in the air!

[Lau]

Lowering the seat all the way and setting wings to manual mode to prevent them from moving has helped me a lot to get a steady formation on the tanker. Extending the probe will give you yaw that I find best to compensate before AAR.

Best,

Lau

Edited March 21 by Lau

[Jayhawk1971]

For me it's the other way around. I always found the Tomcat to be easier to refuel in: as soon as you have trimming figured out (practice on Warbirds), it's very stable. The Hornet, at least with my HOTAS, is twitchy along the y-axis, which needs more attention during AAR. Viper is the same. Tomcat for me is way less of a hassle, again, if you trim properly.

[bfr]

On 3/21/2024 at 9:37 AM, Spurts said:

Try the Harrier where the probe is 90 degrees to your left. 

On the plus side, some say "don't look at the basket and probe too much during AAR" and in the Harrier's case its damn near impossible 

[Gunfreak]

My main problem with the Tomcat is slower engine reaction. With the Hornet you can ram the basket, and throttle down, and the engine responds quickly.

In the Tomcat with bigger engine and more inertia. I find it hard to get good ramming speed and then slow down.  I get to close to the wing, so I over compensate pulling to much back and loose connection. I usually do mange to fill her up. But man it takes a long time.

[RustBelt]

This is the stuff you would feel way before you saw it. How are those air bladder jet seats for subtle stuff like this, he asked while his wallet weeped.

[draconus]

On 3/23/2024 at 12:03 AM, Gunfreak said:

I find it hard to get good ramming speed and then slow down.

You're not supposed to ram it. Approach it steadily and slowly.

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

You're not supposed to ram it. Approach it steadily and slowly.

I've seen vidoes of real pilots ramming  the basket. So that's what I do. 2-3 extra knots into the basket, throttle down and find the grove. Works excellently on F18, M2000 and Harrier. Harder on the F14 because of the inertia of the giant plane and engines that are slower to react to throttle inputs.

[MAXsenna]

I've seen vidoes of real pilots ramming  the basket. So that's what I do. 2-3 extra knots into the basket, throttle down and find the grove. Works excellently on F18, M2000 and Harrier. Harder on the F14 because of the inertia of the giant plane and engines that are slower to react to throttle inputs.

Yeah, but you must anticipate it, and drop the throttle before you connect.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Dragon1-1]

On 3/26/2024 at 5:00 PM, Gunfreak said:

I've seen vidoes of real pilots ramming  the basket. 

Yeah, you can also see videos of real pilots ripping the basket clean off the hose. Doesn't mean it's the proper technique.  

Tomcat is harder to AAR than Hornet, but not excessively so. Proper technique, trim and remembering to set your wings up (either bomb or locked full forward, depending on speed) do go a long way.

Edited March 29 by Dragon1-1

[JesterIsDead]

I can connect but staying connected is a huge problem. From watching real videos, I see the basket is a little sticky once connected- there is some degree of movement. In DCS, it separates too easily. The Tomcat has so much fuel that I don't ever need AAR on my missions. If I need to tank, it's just a few seconds to grab a few thousand pounds to get on the boat

[bonesvf103]

I believe on the KC-135R, the Tomcat had to plug into the basket enough to put a kink in the hose, and maintain that.  This is because that particular hose comes off of the boom, and is not very flexible, and only 10 feet long, so doing this helps the fuel properly flow.  That is probably what one sees in video where the probe is being "rammed" into the basket.  IIRC, it isn't done on any other refueler.  IN fact, this has earned the KC-135R the nickname "Iron Maiden" from Naval Aviators.

Some poor soul wrestling with the Iron Maiden:

From a Hornet driver:

Quote

The brilliant design has a single hose coming out of the boom, less than ten feet long, and very rigid. While it’s often easier to get plugged in compared to other drogues, staying in is an entirely different ball game. In this system, the boom operator actually has quite less to do compared to when they top off USAF aircraft. I don’t know if this design was a conspiracy by frustrated boom operators to keep themselves amused or not, but I’m sure watching a rookie in the basket is entertaining for them.

The process entails roughly ten minutes of continuous, intense concentration. Not your ordinary intense concentration, but more like a surgeon’s concentration when operating. To get fuel to flow, the receiver must push the hose forward enough to cause a bend or “kink”. Since the hose is so short, any sudden movement in any direction means you are a half second away from breaking your airplane and the tanker; the most likely result is ripping the refueling probe off your aircraft–definitely not something you want to happen over Indian Country.

The problem can be exacerbated if there is an overzealous boom operator. The boom can still be controlled and moved by the operator. Depending on his/her experience level, this can be a great help or a nightmare. In my experience, the operators that just let me do my own thing often gave me the best time while plugged in. For example, if you are lined up left while trying to plug in, and you make your correction to the right, it’s not uncommon for the operator to make his/her own correction at the exact same time. This will leave you now lined up right of the basket…and the dance continues. This kind of out-of-phase scenario can also happen anytime there is a course deviation while already plugged in.

“Basket slaps” on the aircraft are not uncommon; it is hard to dance with the Maiden and not get roughed up. While I love the Hornet, there’s some questionable design philosophy when it comes to tanking. The probe is on the right side of the nose. Also, on the right side is an AOA (Angle Of Attack) probe. There are two hydraulic systems on the aircraft and each are run off of its respective motor. All of the hydraulic services besides flight controls (landing gear extension, brakes, anti-skid, etcetera) run off the right motor. Murphy’s law says you will have a basket slap on the right side and the AOA probe will be forcibly removed. Where would it go? You guessed it: straight down the right engine intake!

Now you are looking at a potential single-engine scenario with degraded AOA information going to your air data computer and flight control computers. Not the kind of airplane you want to bring back to das boat.

The only silver lining is that the KC-135 has the highest flow compared to any other tanker. Still, on a combat sortie where up to 40 minutes can be spent plugged into her basket, she’s definitely earned her nick-name of “Iron Maiden”.

 

 

I also find the Tomcat to be easy to refuel, possibly more than the Hornet, but that's subjective.  Once I'm plugged in the Tomcat, I give it a very small throttle shot and bring it back that small amount every other second and I stay plugged.  Of course that also depends--if I end up starting to overtake the tanker, I skip the shot for a second or two to compensate and I'm fine again.

No matter what the technique you use, just remember trim, and very VERY small control inputs and counter them immediately with the opposite input to avoid PIO.  You know are in close formation and as you probably know, the control inputs get tinier and tinier the closer you are to the  aircraft you are flying with.  Or, think about an ILS approach or a ICLS approach.  The closer you get to the runway/carrier, the more sensitive a control input is.  Be mindful of that when tanking too!

v6,

boNes

Edited March 31 by bonesvf103

[draconus]

On 3/29/2024 at 6:38 PM, JesterIsDead said:

In DCS, it separates too easily.

As IRL you can't stay connected beyond limits - either too close, too far away or at too much angle. In DCS you simply disconnect but you can damage the hose or basket IRL.

[bonesvf103]

On 3/31/2024 at 3:23 AM, draconus said:

As IRL you can't stay connected beyond limits - either too close, too far away or at too much angle. In DCS you simply disconnect but you can damage the hose or basket IRL.

How long until they model that, I wonder...?

v6,

boNes

[draconus]

4 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

How long until they model that, I wonder...?

v6,

boNes

Two weeks I hope

[McVittees]

I find tanking in the Tomcat harder than the hornet because of the offset of the probe in the tomcat feels further to the right. In this way a lack of depth perception makes it harder to judge when I'm lined up correctly.  To be fair though, I can't reliably tank well in either yet.

Edited April 2 by McVittees

[Billy]

On 3/21/2024 at 2:37 AM, Spurts said:

Try the Harrier where the probe is 90 degrees to your left. 

For me Harrier is super easy, I landed it 1st try a year ago on flatscreen. Although I spend 90% of my time on the Tomcat, I still couldn't do it even in VR:( (Provided I didn't fly too much last year)

[Rhrich]

If anything I would say AAR in the Tomcat is too easy. 

The basket seems to be magically drawn to the probe if you get anywhere close and you don't have to worry about the damn prove damaging the plane or vice versa. 

Irl, if you hit the damn thing close to the edge it can start to get an angle  and do all sorts of crazy things. Also, some of them could be deformed after several attempts. Sucks if you tanked after the local idiot. 

Also, granted the cat is much bigger than anything I've flown, but it seems to be too stable behind the tanker and the probe seems to have minimal impact on how the plane flies.

Ps: not sure if Im right, but in some crevice in the back of my memory I seem to recall that you need a bit of force (not much, but just a small bit) when you hit the basket, or there is a chance the fuel won't flow.

 

Anyway, the two big disadvantages of DCS is lack of depth perception (if you haven't got vr) and no feel. Also, a long proper stick helps, failing that, I've heard there is a meny to change responsiveness.