waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Avimimus]

The modules I was looking forward to the most were the IA-58 and the Mig-23... without those, and with no licenses for the Su-17 or Iskra apparent - there might not be that much for me to pick up.

I'll probably pick up the OH-58, F-18 on sale someday (F-8/A-7/A-1 too if they ever get released). Probably the only one I'll get day one is the Kfir and FC2024. So, a lot of my future purchases were being developed by teams under RAZBAM.

[Shibbyland]

26 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

I disagree with this. I own the disks to a lot of older games and I have dosbox I don't see why we should accept not being able to purchase and maintain our own software.

With DRM and expecting constant updates we've come to accept software as a service, rather than as something we can control, manage, and sustain ourselves.

Maybe unsupported modules should be opensourced for offline use?

Totally agree with you. I don't like the direction things have gone in. Some of my best gaming was when PC games came on CD but for some reason the box was the size of a small house and had great art on it (like allied assault). I never really worried about things like patches but I suppose there's more complexity nowadays in terms of how software interacts with other software and hardware and how rapidly it changes. As you say, we've all come to expect more from our purchases. 

[Romandv]

1 час назад, lee1hy сказал:

I won't be buying any more DCS unless the RB case is resolved.

This makes sense in the context of the two sides of the controversy - ED and RAZBAM. But what does this have to do with the entire DCS? The other developers fulfil their obligations, release and update their products and there is no reason not to buy anything from them.

In general, even from ED you can buy something. The whole thing about them not having(maybe) a code, after Hawk the conclusions were not drawn, DCS-Steam is a platform that gives no guarantees and overall just medieval. But ED is leading the development of their products and you won't be left with nothing.
With RB fully is the opposite situation - another circus in discord shows that: the company is a mess and not serious people who are not able to have a meaningful discussion. But who in their right mind would buy anything from them after everything that's happened?

Edited June 6, 2024 by Romandv

[Shibbyland]

When it comes to asking for refunds. Being refunded in ED miles isn't all that useful as there's so many products you can't use miles on. Then the other thing is lets say you get a refund for the F-15e and you get ED miles but then the issue with Razbam is resolved. Now you've got ED miles, no F-15e and RAZBAM aren't part of the miles program so you'd need to use money to purchase it again if you chose to anyway.

There's a broader issue about refunds in that depending where you live (ie where ED are trading), it's actually not as simple as pointing to terms of service and saying you're not going to provide a refund. For example, where I live, the consumer guarantees act provides protection where a product is "not fit for purpose" regardless of what terms and conditions you've agreed to.

I probably wouldn't go kicking up a fuss about one purchase but I'm just saying, these are considerations.

[westr]

54 minutes ago, lee1hy said:

I won't be buying any more DCS unless the RB case is resolved.

I won’t be doing anything like that but it’s made me think twice about 3rd party modules. I’ve bought the F4 but think I’ll hold off buying anything else for the time being and see what happens with this. It’s a shame no breakthroughs have been made. 

[Koziolek]

13 minutes ago, Shibbyland said:

 Some of my best gaming was when PC games came on CD

Let me see. Afghanistan map 100GB / 800 MB = 125 CDs. I agree, it needs quite a big box 

[Hammer1-1]

6 minutes ago, Koziolek said:

Let me see. Afghanistan map 100GB / 800 MB = 125 CDs. I agree, it needs quite a big box 

thumb drives are all the rave nowadays. really wish that were a thing nowadays rather than internet downloading...then again I really wish we didnt need a constant internet connection to play a game either. you would think that after spending 80 bucks on a game you would be able to play it any time you want regardless of internet connection or not and have the game right there on that nice little thumb drive like my operating system did.

[Snappy]

24 minutes ago, Romandv said:

This makes sense in the context of the two sides of the controversy - ED and RAZBAM. But what does this have to do with the entire DCS? The other developers fulfil their obligations, release and update their products and there is no reason not to buy anything from them.

In general, even from ED you can buy something. The whole thing about them not having(maybe) a code, after Hawk the conclusions were not drawn, DCS-Steam is a platform that gives no guarantees and overall just medieval. But ED is leading the development of their products and you won't be left with nothing.
With RB fully is the opposite situation - another circus in discord shows that: the company is a mess and not serious people who are not able to have a meaningful discussion. But who in their right mind would buy anything from them after everything that's happened?

 

You missed the point I think. It’s not about what other 3rd party developers do.

It’s about lost customer trust and that is has become clear how fragile the DCS ecosystem is.

And for some it’s also about not wanting to financially support or reward ED and their business practices anymore at the moment.

 

Edited June 6, 2024 by Snappy

[Slippa]

Some of my best gaming was when they were on floppy discs too, or tape.

Anyone up for loading 100 odd gb on a Commodore 64? Would take days then crash, I can hear what it would sound like.

[Swiso]

8 hours ago, Atazar SPN said:

Others should have thought about the consequences of taking actions that would result in stopping a jointly developed product. Suspend payment to your partners, for example.

If you think this is going to be solved by throwing rocks at RB, go ahead with it, but don't expect RB to get under them.

.....OR....not respecting the contract you've signed....see IP thing.....

[Romandv]

19 минут назад, Snappy сказал:

You missed the point I think. It’s not about what other 3rd party developers do.

It’s about lost customer trust and that is has become clear how fragile the DCS ecosystem is.

And for some it’s also about not wanting to financially support or reward ED and their business practices anymore at the moment.

 

 

No, I didn't miss the point, I see posts like this all the time and they are all of the same type. There is no violation of the ecosystem, there is one specific case and that's it. You can't destroy something that isn't working properly to begin with. Lest you think I'm defending ED I'll just ask them some questions:

1) Where are the outputs after Hawk?
2) Why don't you have code from RAZBAM aircraft?
3) Why your products bought on Steam I can't return? 
4) Why are customers not protected from companies like RAZBAM? 
5) Why are RAZBAM modules still being sold?

I could go on with this list for a long time, but I won't. I have no prejudices about ED and RB - I like DCS, I liked my F15E/M2000/AV8B, but, granted, but I don't see any point in mixing it all together, and I've already drawn my conclusions specifically of each.  I just don't see why one particular case can change an opinion relative to anything done by third parties in DCS and the ED themselves. 

Edited June 6, 2024 by Romandv

[KillingJoke]

42 minutes ago, westr said:

I won’t be doing anything like that but it’s made me think twice about 3rd party modules. I’ve bought the F4 but think I’ll hold off buying anything else for the time being and see what happens with this. It’s a shame no breakthroughs have been made. 

This is where I've also ended up. I've been absolutely psyched for the release of the Kiowa and at the last minute I've sat back and reconsidered due to what's been going on. I've no reason to believe Polychop won't support their products but then I'd have said the same about Razbam.

The fact that this situation has dragged on for so long and with no sign of a solution in sight has me second guessing picking up new modules down the road. At least until this is resolved.

[Swiso]

8 hours ago, Atazar SPN said:

If you consider that your partner has breached any contractual point, call your partner for a conciliation act before suspending your payments without thinking about the consequences.

You keep assuming that RB is clean in this thing....why ? Are you really so sure ? Do you have any insight ? If so enlighten us...

In all you posts, never once you take into consideration the possible IP thing...

 

[stonewall197922]

9 часов назад, Atazar SPN сказал:

If you consider that your partner has breached any contractual point, call your partner for a conciliation act before suspending your payments without thinking about the consequences.

Usually when your parnter has breached agreement terms, you hold any payments (if that viaolation is critical, or atleast payments under specific agreements). Then you notify him, that payments is on hold until your partner return to operate accrordng to concluded agreements. Why you must pay to company, which is violating agreement terms? To loose more money? You dont know actual agreement terms between ED and RB. By holding payments you forcing your partner to act accoring to agreement. And minimizing damage to your company. If your partner not intended to act accrording to concluded agreements, which he signed. So he must take full responsibility for decisions, actions or incations.

Edited June 6, 2024 by stonewall197922

[BigBorner]

On 6/5/2024 at 8:50 AM, BigBorner said:

Ill keep my Mudhen until there is closure to this topic, one way or the other. If it goes down the drain, i would want to exchange it to another module / store credit for another module. I wont be screwed for waiting it out? Pinky promise ?

@NineLine

 

Sorry for the ping, but that was a legit question. 
Will I screw myself over by not requesting a refund now but waiting for definite closure? 

[Shibbyland]

1 hour ago, Koziolek said:

Let me see. Afghanistan map 100GB / 800 MB = 125 CDs. I agree, it needs quite a big box 

haha oh yea I'm not suggesting we could still do that, just remarking on the days when you had a physical copy. I used to stack the boxes up, they were huge...why did they do that, it makes no sense.

Just now, BigBorner said:

@NineLine

 

Sorry for the ping, but that was a legit question. 
Will I screw myself over by not requesting a refund now but waiting for definite closure? 

I know you're not asking me but just my 2 cents anyway. If you were to be successful in a refund, you'd only get ED miles and they can't be used for every product. If this situation is resolved you'd have to buy the F-15 again but I don't think RAZBAM take part in the miles scheme so you wouldn't be able to use your refunded miles (I could have that wrong but I think it's how it works).

[stonewall197922]

3 минуты назад, BigBorner сказал:

@NineLine

 

Sorry for the ping, but that was a legit question. 
Will I screw myself over by not requesting a refund now but waiting for definite closure? 

That decision you must make yourself. No one will help you. Thats your money. Everything maybe ok or not ok. The future is vague.

Edited June 6, 2024 by stonewall197922

[BigBorner]

Just now, stonewall197922 said:

That decision you must make yourself. No one will help you. Thats your money.

If community manager says that ED prefers that we are waiting it out, I think that’s a fair question for clarification. 

[J3ST3R]

Hi, this is my personal opinion but I really feel there needs to be an update from ED regards the on going issues with razbam. The negativity on this subject is really starting to gather speed. I was one of those that got bitten when VEAO died with the Hawk and P40F. I've already paid out for 2 modules that will never see the light of day again and I currently own all Razbam modules. So if they die off too, I would have spent out a large sum of my money on these products to support DCS and 3rd parties for no reason. After the whole veao saga, I thought all future modules had to hand the source code to ED so that didn't happen again? 

 

Now with so many people requesting refunds for the F15E, it's all looking very bad for the future of DCS as a whole and I'm surprised all concerned aren't feeling the pinch in sales and customer satisfaction. It's really not a good place to be and not keeping your consumer base in the know is the worst thing to do.

[fragal]

I got my eagle refund and i received store $ not miles, I think for now, I will hold off on buying anything "new" outside of what I've got on preorder "chinook and afghan" until the whole RB thing is resolved i can always rebuy the SE later.

 

[stonewall197922]

1 минуту назад, BigBorner сказал:

If community manager says that ED prefers that we are waiting it out, I think that’s a fair question for clarification. 

Again its up to you. You can refund and buy new module. Or you can wait. Maybe it will be ok, and you save some money. If you want to buy new module. And you are not using f-15 alot. So why not?

 

 

[draconus]

2 minutes ago, BigBorner said:

If community manager says that ED prefers that we are waiting it out, I think that’s a fair question for clarification. 

Nice try but they don't know the future.

[BIGNEWY]

4 minutes ago, J3ST3R said:

Hi, this is my personal opinion but I really feel there needs to be an update from ED regards the on going issues with razbam. The negativity on this subject is really starting to gather speed. I was one of those that got bitten when VEAO died with the Hawk and P40F. I've already paid out for 2 modules that will never see the light of day again and I currently own all Razbam modules. So if they die off too, I would have spent out a large sum of my money on these products to support DCS and 3rd parties for no reason. After the whole veao saga, I thought all future modules had to hand the source code to ED so that didn't happen again? 

 

Now with so many people requesting refunds for the F15E, it's all looking very bad for the future of DCS as a whole and I'm surprised all concerned aren't feeling the pinch in sales and customer satisfaction. It's really not a good place to be and not keeping your consumer base in the know is the worst thing to do.

Hi, 

sorry but we have made the only statement we can at the moment regarding RAZBAM situation, we now have to wait and hope for a good out come, discussions are in progress at the top level. 

thank you 

[BigBorner]

4 minutes ago, draconus said:

Nice try but they don't know the future.

wth are you talking about? I want to make sure that I can still get a refund like the people getting it right now, when there is an official announcement that RB cooperation is over. And yes, in this case they know the future because it’s their decision if I do or don’t. And this is a fair question to the official statement that ED would prefer for us to wait it out before requesting a refund. 
All it takes is a official „yes you will still get a refund when the turnout it that the cooperation will end“. 

[draconus]

37 minutes ago, BigBorner said:

All it takes is a official „yes you will...

But there is no such statement and what does that tell you?