waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Blackeye]

Just now, Hammer1-1 said:

dude...razbam built the model using ED's SDK. If you feel like Razbam doesnt owe ED a thing for using that, hosting the work on their domain, on EDs platfom...FOR THEIR PLATFORM...I guess contracting work means nothing to people here. I guess ED could have hired cheap labor...

Again your statement was "ED didnt sell you Razbam's stuff, Razbam did." And this is clearly wrong. ED DID sell me the modules Razbam developed.

Who coded it using what tools and which royalties are involved or whatever (sub)contractors ED used or not does not matter at all for me as customer.

[Pipe]

24 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

dude...razbam built the model using ED's SDK. If you feel like Razbam doesnt owe ED a thing for using that, hosting the work on their domain, on EDs platfom...FOR THEIR PLATFORM...I guess contracting work means nothing to people here. I guess ED could have hired cheap labor...

contractors generally gets paid for contract work..so I guess you dont get it either

Edited June 10, 2024 by Pipe

[Mizzy]

4 hours ago, Pipe said:

No Mizzy they are not, but that does not answer my question

Your question has been answered, you just don't like the answer !

Mizzy

 

[Pipe]

4 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Your question has been answered, you just don't like the answer !

Mizzy

 

so you are saying with certainty there are no other active disputes going on? again where did you get this info? link please

Edited June 10, 2024 by Pipe

[Mizzy]

2 hours ago, okopanja said:

Slight legal correction here: you have bought 3 Razbam modules from ED.

 

Slight legal correction, who said I did not buy the modules through ED ?

Mizzy

19 minutes ago, Pipe said:

so you are saying with certainty there are no other active disputes going on? again where did you get this info? link please

 

I am not saying anything of a sort, read my post carefully !! Stop making up your own reality and applying it to the real world !!

Mizzy

Edited June 10, 2024 by Mizzy
Being mean when I should know better.

[Pipe]

3 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Slight legal correction, who said I did not buy the modules through ED ?

Mizzy

Are you a bit slow? I am not saying anything of a sort, read my post carefully !! Stop making up your own reality and applying it to the real world !!

Mizzy

I asked a question that wasnt even directed at you, then you needed to chime in without an answer

then you throw insults, nice touch

[IceyJones]

vor 58 Minuten schrieb Hammer1-1:

Oh Im sure that Razbam can make their own platform, not sure why they need ED in the first place...just take the hint.

show me the part where it says Eagle Dynamics built the aircraft model. Razbam only used Eagle Dynamics platform and tools to make it, thats all. You know, that stuff that they have to pay royalties for? You think ED just gives that SDK stuff away for free? Think I can come up with a nice list of things Razbam needs to pay Eagle Dynamics for with regards to hosting their work on their platform.

 

does not matter. do you understand that?

ED sold it, so they are responsible for fulfilling the contract with me. if they cant, i can demand a full refund on my bank account

EU law (since 2019....that strengthened customer rights here)

if ED is not willing to follow that, they could lose the right to sell in the EU

Edited June 10, 2024 by IceyJones

[Mizzy]

2 minutes ago, Pipe said:

I asked a question that wasnt even directed at you, then you needed to chime in without an answer

then you throw insults, nice touch

Your question has been answered, it's up to you to accept it or otherwise. My apologies, I should not have said what I did.

[Hammer1-1]

51 minutes ago, Pipe said:

contractors generally gets paid for contract work..so I guess you dont get it either

 

I know if I keep sitting on my ass and get paid to do a job, Id eventually get fired. If Im a contract house, I wouldnt be getting a check cut out to me until they actually get some sustained work or workers that actually performed work. Maybe even lose the contract. Maybe you "get it" less than I do.

27 minutes ago, IceyJones said:

does not matter. do you understand that?

ED sold it, so they are responsible for fulfilling the contract with me. if they cant, i can demand a full refund on my bank account

EU law (since 2019....that strengthened customer rights here)

if ED is not willing to follow that, they could lose the right to sell in the EU

 

Im sure ED's lawyers know EU law better than you, Im also pretty sure they know what they're doing.

You dont fulfill your contractual obligation? No pay.

You dont pay for the SDK? No pay.

You dont pay for hosting your work on our server? No pay.

If you owe us money, we'll deduct it out of your paycheck. Guessing you've never heard that line before, right?

Edited June 10, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[nessuno0505]

All this discussion looks quite useless to me.

ED sells the modules, ED have to find a solution.

RB does the modules, if RB stops working the modules do not do it by themselves.

Now it's up to ED to decide what to do: what would you do in ED's place? Some refund even if in the form of a "voucher" has been given, for now, law or not, I would be satisfied. The day RB is no longer in DCS then maybe, if no one else takes care of their modules, you can ask for money back.

[Pipe]

37 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I know if I keep sitting on my ass and get paid to do a job, Id eventually get fired. If Im a contract house, I wouldnt be getting a check cut out to me until they actually get some sustained work or workers that actually performed work. Maybe even lose the contract. Maybe you "get it" less than I do.

Im sure ED's lawyers know EU law better than you, Im also pretty sure they know what they're doing.

You dont fulfill your contractual obligation? No pay.

You dont pay for the SDK? No pay.

You dont pay for hosting your work on our server? No pay.

If you owe us money, we'll deduct it out of your paycheck. Guessing you've never heard that line before, right?

 

pretty sure you dont get it at all, thats ok if you dont by now you never will

[RaisedByWolves]

Any update with Razbam?

[PhantomHans]

10 hours ago, Top Jockey said:

In other words, I've bought the products under the assumption that, the possibility of using the product I've bought is permanent.

 

 

9 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

If you genuinely want software purchases to be permanent then you should be boycotting anyone that releases software with DRM because it carries a very real risk that your purchase may not be permanent.

 

I want to be clear.  I support the right of digital content creators to protect the value of their work, protect their investment, and their unquestionable right to be paid for the use of their product.

I support the right of content creators to take steps to protect their product from theft.  Including copyright protection like online checks.

 

The only thing I want is what any reasonable person who purchases software would want: the right to use what I bought.

 

I understand and expect that some day a final patch will come,  support will end, no more updates, no more changes to run on Windows 87 or whatever, and sites and servers will shut down.  But whatever method was used for copyright needs to be removed at that time if it would render the software useless.

[jamie_c]

DRM isn't copyright protection, it's access control like a secure gate to ED's physical property to which we are granted temporary access. In the case of DCS and its modules those are also subject to the EULA that the majority here agreed to (\DCS World\Doc\license_en.txt for english). Notably:
 

Quote

2.1 The Program is licensed for your use. This Licence confers no title or ownership in the Program and should not be construed as a sale of any rights in the Program.  This Licence shall also apply to any patches or updates you may obtain from TFC for the Program.

Section 9.1 also highlights you can lose your access by termination of the agreement at any time by "The Fighter Collection Limited". If ED/TFC fold one day, you wont be able to login to authorise your account and fly anything and not a single part of the EULA obligates them to change that and as someone who has an easier time listing the modules I don't own - that is worrying and no voice over in a promo video can fix that. Without a degree of luck it wouldn't ever see a community driven resurrection like another sim.

The continued sale of RB modules is likely down to business agreement between the parties much like dispute resolution would be and I doubt a clause in the agreement includes public outburst as an appropriate remedy. The reality is many, regardless of outcome of the dispute have bought their last Razbam module, which is a shame because the Strike Eagle could've had a really bright future and the M2k with considerable help from the AdA is now to the standard we all expect with the exception of the recent bug.

[Maberickxx88]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb jamie_c:

DRM isn't copyright protection, it's access control like a secure gate to ED's physical property to which we are granted temporary access. In the case of DCS and its modules those are also subject to the EULA that the majority here agreed to (\DCS World\Doc\license_en.txt for english). Notably:
 

Section 9.1 also highlights you can lose your access by termination of the agreement at any time by "The Fighter Collection Limited". If ED/TFC fold one day, you wont be able to login to authorise your account and fly anything and not a single part of the EULA obligates them to change that and as someone who has an easier time listing the modules I don't own - that is worrying and no voice over in a promo video can fix that. Without a degree of luck it wouldn't ever see a community driven resurrection like another sim.

What about the steam Edition?

Does steam also use DRM?

If ED breaks away, I guess steam users will still be able to play and access their modules

 

Edited June 10, 2024 by Maberickxx88

[NineLine]

Just to be clear, DCS is not at risk of going away.

[Scott-S6]

4 hours ago, PhantomHans said:

 

I want to be clear.  I support the right of digital content creators to protect the value of their work, protect their investment, and their unquestionable right to be paid for the use of their product.

I support the right of content creators to take steps to protect their product from theft.  Including copyright protection like online checks.

 

The only thing I want is what any reasonable person who purchases software would want: the right to use what I bought.

 

I understand and expect that some day a final patch will come,  support will end, no more updates, no more changes to run on Windows 87 or whatever, and sites and servers will shut down.  But whatever method was used for copyright needs to be removed at that time if it would render the software useless.

Absolutely, I agree. But DRM means that there is a very real possibility that sometime after that last patch the software will become unusable. It has happened many times.

And the benefit of DRM? Games protected with denuvo, for example, are consistently hacked to remove it in less than a month, sometimes in less than a day, so it doesn't really protect the IP at all. 

Edited June 10, 2024 by Scott-S6

[Hammer1-1]

5 hours ago, Pipe said:

pretty sure you dont get it at all, thats ok if you dont by now you never will

that means a lot to me.

on second thought, no it doesnt. Guess productivity at work means very little to you. Not sure why ED's lawyers arent in direct communications with you because you obviously know better.

Edited June 10, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[draconus]

7 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

show me the part where it says Eagle Dynamics built the aircraft model

So... you didn't know? ED actually did the original E model:

And yes, I also bought the module from ED like everyone, not from RB.

[Romandv]

49 минут назад, NineLine сказал:

Just to be clear, DCS is not at risk of going away.

It's pretty obvious that even if all the third party developers disappear, ED isn't going anywhere and will continue on from here. Another issue is that there are chances that some other dev might do the same thing like RAZBAM and what will you do? 

I want ED to draw some conclusions and be able to actually support all the modules it has, not just on paper. Besides the 3 dead modules I have now, I don't need 10 others in the same condition. It would be nice if your company could provide some information on this issue so that we can buy third party modules without having to worry that they may not work tomorrow.

[lee1hy]

still no  solution/? 
 ed stance not move even 1cm 

[SkateZilla]

8 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Oh Im sure that Razbam can make their own platform, not sure why they need ED in the first place...just take the hint.

show me the part where it says Eagle Dynamics built the aircraft model. Razbam only used Eagle Dynamics platform and tools to make it, thats all. You know, that stuff that they have to pay royalties for? You think ED just gives that SDK stuff away for free? Think I can come up with a nice list of things Razbam needs to pay Eagle Dynamics for with regards to hosting their work on their platform.

 

The ED/DCS F-15E External model was used by RazBAM and Modified for multiple reasons.

So yeah, the model was built by ED and tweaked by RB.

That's been common knowledge since the F-15E development was started a long long time ago.

Edited June 10, 2024 by SkateZilla

[okopanja]

7 hours ago, Mizzy said:

Slight legal correction, who said I did not buy the modules through ED ?

Well technically your money did go to ED (or steam originally), however it appears it has not reached the RB (which actually should not be your concern), due to some dispute between ED and RB.

Naturally if you work as a small developer you do it in one of the ways:

1. you keep your regular job and work in your spare free time ( a so called garage setup,

2. you commit yourself fully to the thing.

In case 1 after several months you may get demotivated to work further, but can still survive, but in the second case you also get existential problems to solve if this was your own avenue of income.

Each of these sides have their own claims, but there is also a 3rd side of people who already payed for the modules. In addition probably there is still influx of new users since they are not aware of this ugly dispute, and there is nothing to indicate that these are at the moment risky purchases.

IMHO: both sides need some adult re-thinking on how to solve the issue without hurting the interests of 3rd side.

 

[primus_TR]

In my opinion, this will end with Razbam having to pay debilitating damages to ED, unless they somehow find a way to persuade ED otherwise. 

[Hammer1-1]

31 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

The ED/DCS F-15E External model was used by RazBAM and Modified for multiple reasons.

So yeah, the model was built by ED and tweaked by RB.

That's been common knowledge since the F-15E development was started a long long time ago.

 

I vaguely remember that...I stand corrected.