waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[USA_Recon]

Just now, Hammer1-1 said:

hes stated several times that yes they havent been paid for reasons that involve Razbam using EDs IP against the contract agreement. Even I am getting tired of hearing NineLine repeat it.

Ok, so that sounds like an issue outside of the F-15e.  So your saying that ED did withhold payment to RB due to a rumored (if it’s factual and you can show me that would be good) breach around some other aircraft that has nothing to with the F-15e ?  In that case Ron was right ? ED leveraged payment , Ron leveraged not sending updates ? 

As an owner of the F-15e, can ED pay the employees what is owned, and they can continue their resolution of the IP breach ?  From my perspective you’re penalizing me, the customer .  
 

How can I trust buying things anymore from ED if this is how it will turn out ?

4 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Sorry, the hater comment wasn't directed at you... just been on my mind.

The non-payments are true but it was not without reason, again I can only give you guys so much, it is a legal matter. I wish I could give more, but I just cannot right now, sorry.

Edit: Sorry, communication is on going, yes. But again it filters through lawyers and if it's going through lawyers I don't imagine many people are talking about any of it. 

Thank you.  And I didn’t come to cause any trouble.  I’m truly sadden because I really love the modules , F-15e is great, and I was excited for its updates, and this news has been hard to bear.  I hope things can be resolved.  

[Hammer1-1]

4 minutes ago, USA_Recon said:

Ok, so that sounds like an issue outside of the F-15e.  So your saying that ED did withhold payment to RB due to a rumored (if it’s factual and you can show me that would be good) breach around some other aircraft that has nothing to with the F-15e ?  In that case Ron was right ? ED leveraged payment , Ron leveraged not sending updates ? 

As an owner of the F-15e, can ED pay the employees what is owned, and they can continue their resolution of the IP breach ?  From my perspective you’re penalizing me, the customer .  
 

 

 

happy reading...?? been discussed in great detail for weeks there.

Edited June 18, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[PhantomHans]

3 minutes ago, NineLine said:

The non-payments are true but it was not without reason, again I can only give you guys so much, it is a legal matter.

Transparency can be good.  I'm glad you have your reasons, I'm sure they have theirs, blah blah blah blah.

 

I put my refund requests in for my Razbam modules and I'll wait patiently for a reply.  Sadly I'm stuck with a bunch of modules but oh well, live and learn right?

[NineLine]

1 minute ago, USA_Recon said:

Ok, so that sounds like an issue outside of the F-15e.  So your saying that ED did withhold payment to RB due to a rumored (if it’s factual and you can show me that would be good) breach around some other aircraft that has nothing to with the F-15e ?  In that case Ron was right ? ED leveraged payment , Ron leveraged not sending updates ? 

As an owner of the F-15e, can ED pay the employees what is owned, and they can continue their resolution of the IP breach ?  From my perspective you’re penalizing me, the customer .  
 

How can I trust buying things anymore from ED if this is how it will turn out ?

Thank you.  And I didn’t come to cause any trouble.  I’m truly sadden because I really love the modules , F-15e is great, and I was excited for its updates, and this news has been hard to bear.  I hope things can be resolved.  

I love the F-15E as well, I said early on that I was just getting into it when someone asked me to check a bug with it, and once I jumped in I was launched back to my Jane's days. I want nothing more than to see it come back and flourish. It's getting harder and harder to see how that is gonna look though.

1 minute ago, PhantomHans said:

Transparency can be good.  I'm glad you have your reasons, I'm sure they have theirs, blah blah blah blah.

 

I put my refund requests in for my Razbam modules and I'll wait patiently for a reply.  Sadly I'm stuck with a bunch of modules but oh well, live and learn right?

The other modules will be fine. The F-15E I hope will be as well and we hope people will try and stick it out, but I also understand with all that is happening if you do not want to. 

[USA_Recon]

1 minute ago, Hammer1-1 said:

 

happy reading...??

Sorry but I really didn’t come here to read a bazillion opinions , I voiced my response to Nineline, and he has responded.  Thanks though.  Have a good day.  I’ll be hoping ED and Nick can handle things for the customers . S!

2 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I love the F-15E as well, I said early on that I was just getting into it when someone asked me to check a bug with it, and once I jumped in I was launched back to my Jane's days. I want nothing more than to see it come back and flourish. It's getting harder and harder to see how that is gonna look though.

The other modules will be fine. The F-15E I hope will be as well and we hope people will try and stick it out, but I also understand with all that is happening if you do not want to. 

Thanks .  I have not given up hope.  And I would gladly pay for another F-15e if it would help those guys get paid for their work 

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, spikef22 said:

So yes it appears there were conversations confirmed by an ED employee that a payment was indeed sent to try and keep this from going public. Do with that what you will. 

This is not a confirmation whatsoever, I have not seen any such statement from any ED employee. Your first confirmation was supposed to be from two others that worked for Razbam, now you say it's from ED ! Can you see the impotence of not pedaling misinformation. Anyway,  let's leave it at that.

Mizzy

[NineLine]

2 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

This is not a confirmation whatsoever, I have not seen any such statement from any ED employee. Your first confirmation was supposed to be from two others that worked for Razbam, now you say it's from ED ! Can you see the impotence of not pedaling misinformation. Anyway,  let's leave it at that.

Mizzy

Better to let it go now, seems it was just to drum up screenshots at this point. 

[Moxica]

My gawd, the ADHD is strong on this topic.

[Blazkovitch]

29 minutes ago, USA_Recon said:

ED is withholding paying RB.  So why did ED publish this product and take income from it and withhold what is rightfully theirs.

By ED taking this action they have caused considerable damage to their customer base 

But if ED is witholding payments due to valid reasons then things may be slightly different. Income may not necessarily be "rightfully theirs" because we are talking about dealings between companies and if one company is breaking the contract and the contract contains appropriate clauses or pre-conditions to payments then it is completely legal to withold the payments and then, if the reasons are found invalid, to pay out the outstanding royalties with interest (or damages).

[Notso]

21 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I love the F-15E as well, I said early on that I was just getting into it when someone asked me to check a bug with it, and once I jumped in I was launched back to my Jane's days. I want nothing more than to see it come back and flourish. It's getting harder and harder to see how that is gonna look though.

 

Hi NineLine, I appreciate your hope for the module coming back.  I think we all agree that it would be a shame if it did not.  However, your bolded sentence above seems ominous.  Why do you see it becoming harder for it to come back and flourish??

[NineLine]

2 minutes ago, Notso said:

Hi NineLine, I appreciate your hope for the module coming back.  I think we all agree that it would be a shame if it did not.  However, your bolded sentence above seems ominous.  Why do you see it becoming harder for it to come back and flourish??

My concern is not so much the module, the module has the potential to be epic, and it was well on its way. My concern is the feelings between the two divided groups we have that continue to be fueled by either hateful comments towards certain parties or allowing hateful comments. If you need a sampling of such comments I can DM them to you but I think you probably know. And I am not pointing the finger at any one side or group, it's all over on both sides. I am worried about the relationships all over. That is all.

[Notso]

3 minutes ago, NineLine said:

My concern is not so much the module, the module has the potential to be epic, and it was well on its way. My concern is the feelings between the two divided groups we have that continue to be fueled by either hateful comments towards certain parties or allowing hateful comments. If you need a sampling of such comments I can DM them to you but I think you probably know. And I am not pointing the finger at any one side or group, it's all over on both sides. I am worried about the relationships all over. That is all.

Yep, I can totally understand that.  Hopefully, the adults will see that at the end of the day - its about a BUSINESS relationship and not "feelings" or friendship.  If ED and RB can put egos and hurt feelings aside and go back to making beautiful money together - then they should and all of your customers will be better served.  This happens in business all the time.  Mature companies get past it and move on.  Immature ones who can't let it go, always suffer in the long run.  

As for the hateful comments, I totally get it.  I've asked people on the RB discord to KIO over the personal attacks.  Especially to you guys, the ED CMs and such.  None of this is your fault or even in your control.  Fingers crossed this gets fixed!

[Razgriz10]

38 minutes ago, USA_Recon said:

Ok, so that sounds like an issue outside of the F-15e.  So your saying that ED did withhold payment to RB due to a rumored (if it’s factual and you can show me that would be good) breach around some other aircraft that has nothing to with the F-15e ?  In that case Ron was right ? ED leveraged payment , Ron leveraged not sending updates ? 

As an owner of the F-15e, can ED pay the employees what is owned, and they can continue their resolution of the IP breach ?  From my perspective you’re penalizing me, the customer .  
 

How can I trust buying things anymore from ED if this is how it will turn out ?

Thank you.  And I didn’t come to cause any trouble.  I’m truly sadden because I really love the modules , F-15e is great, and I was excited for its updates, and this news has been hard to bear.  I hope things can be resolved.  

Bro, this is a big leagal issue going on between two companies.  They are not going to publicize things about internal disputes until things are resolved however that may end up and even then we may never know everything.  We are all just going to have to deal with that fact.  They have left the optioin open for refunds and told us everything that they can at the moment. If you don't like it then tough luck.

[NineLine]

1 minute ago, Notso said:

Yep, I can totally understand that.  Hopefully, the adults will see that at the end of the day - its about a BUSINESS relationship and not "feelings" or friendship.  If ED and RB can put egos and hurt feelings aside and go back to making beautiful money together - then they should and all of your customers will be better served.  This happens in business all the time.  Mature companies get past it and move on.  Immature ones who can't let it go, always suffer in the long run.  

As for the hateful comments, I totally get it.  I've asked people on the RB discord to KIO over the personal attacks.  Especially to you guys, the ED CMs and such.  None of this is your fault or even in your control.  Fingers crossed this gets fixed!

I agree, a united front will get more things done. I am not worried about management I doubt there is a lot of mud-slinging going on there. My worry is always the community at large, I don't dare even comment on the RB Discord anymore as the last time I got timed out lol. Anyway, we will see. I hope one day this will just be a bump in the road we all passed by, but as I said, the more angry and mean people get the harder it is to see past that bump. 

[BigBorner]

now kiss plz and go on with f-15e dev things. Thx. 

[draconus]

About the system time workaround of course it's not a solution but failures happen and workarounds let you play before official resolution comes. Few months ago there was Oculus drama and then too some used workarounds and kept playing while others decided to wait for a fix. Your call. My radar works while you wait. Fine, but don't say you can't play - it's your decision.

It's harmful or unsecure to change date? Lol, no. I mean I hope you don't play games on your work computer or run DCS on data center server, otherwise what important things do you run while gaming in background?

Edited June 18, 2024 by draconus

[Hammer1-1]

38 minutes ago, Notso said:

Hi NineLine, I appreciate your hope for the module coming back.  I think we all agree that it would be a shame if it did not.  However, your bolded sentence above seems ominous.  Why do you see it becoming harder for it to come back and flourish??

IMO the more I see people demanding a refund, the more I see developers general interest in even maintaining the module now would look like a fruitless endeavor if its not even going to pay off in the end. Like, what happens next if they do resume work on the module? How many people were refunded, how many people were driven away from the module, how many people were driven away from either/or/both Razbam and ED? That was a lot of reputation on both parties just flushed, currently circling down the drain, and all it took was one party to speak publicly...

[USA_Recon]

23 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I agree, a united front will get more things done. I am not worried about management I doubt there is a lot of mud-slinging going on there. My worry is always the community at large, I don't dare even comment on the RB Discord anymore as the last time I got timed out lol. Anyway, we will see. I hope one day this will just be a bump in the road we all passed by, but as I said, the more angry and mean people get the harder it is to see past that bump. 

Trust me, if this is resolved and RB goes back to updating the Mudhen, folks will be very happy.

I’d be more worried if this doesn’t get resolved.  Not good for anyone.

[NineLine]

1 minute ago, USA_Recon said:

Trust me, if this is resolved and RB goes back to updating the Mudhen, folks will be very happy.

I’d be more worried if this doesn’t get resolved.  Not good for anyone.

I am worried about all possible outcomes, but cheering for the absolute best. 

[Beirut]

24 minutes ago, draconus said:

 

It's harmful or unsecure to change date? Lol, no.

 

And you know that in relation to the dozens, perhaps hundreds, of different programs people are running on all the PCs people here are using... how?

 

 

[macedk]

Jesus just fix it. Lawyers are havening a field day, The lawyer is the only one saying you need him or her. 
Grown up people with the head in the sand.  
The more you delay whatever outcome, the worse it gets. 
If you are sure and the other side is sure as well. Stalemate. 
But in the grand scheme of things, trust is lost. Right now nobody will buy a Razbam product in fear of being burned. ED, well you need to move better and faster. Why ?, you talk more than you deliver and your timeframe is old school. 
We are waiting too long for too little. 
Free tip, day one of a competitor and you are out. In module making you have been surpassed by many miles. 

I like DCS but it should be better by now. 

[exhausted]

23 hours ago, NineLine said:

First off, there is nothing new to report as of the date of this post, this new thread is simply a clean-up and ease of access for all current official information on the current issues between Eagle Dynamics & RAZBAM. Hopefully, this will make it easier to see the current known information and weed it out from the theories, guesses and suggestions in the other thread. If you want to see that one, the link will be available at the bottom of the post.

The first public knowledge of the disagreement happened with an announcement on the RAZBAM Discord here:

https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544501300134543380/1225494495458627634

razbam_prowler — 04/04/2024 10:17 AM
Dear Customers and Community,

You may have noticed that the that the latest RAZBAM announcements does not include a changelog or any updates for our products. We would like to inform you that, until further notice, all support for RAZBAM-developed aircraft modules is on hold. This suspension encompasses, but is not limited to, bug fixes and updates.

We want to reaffirm our unwavering commitment to this exceptional community, our current customers, and prospective clients. Unfortunately, due to circumstances completely beyond our control, we are temporarily unable to continue our work at this time. Our team, a group of highly skilled and professional developers, is first and foremost made up of dedicated individuals. They invest not only their expertise but also their personal dedication and sacrifice into crafting our products. For many, this work provides essential supplementary income or even constitutes their primary livelihood.

We are hopeful for a swift resolution so that we can resume our normal operations. However, until these issues are resolved, we will not be issuing any updates about our products. We ask for your understanding during this challenging period, a situation that RAZBAM Simulations did not seek and which has previously seriously affected other parties, for example Heatblur Simulations. We have been patient, perhaps too patient, waiting for a resolution from the responsible parties. Now, we find it necessary to take a stand and await a practical solution to this deadlock.

I also want to extend my heartfelt thanks to my fellow third-party developers. Their support, once aware of the relevant facts, has been overwhelming. Thank you for elevating DCS to new heights; it truly wouldn't be the remarkable experience it is without your contributions.

The suspension will remain in effect until the significant issues between Eagle Dynamics and RAZBAM Simulations LLC are resolved to our mutual satisfaction. Once these issues have been addressed, we will resume our standard practices of bug fixing, updates, and upgrades, just as we have since our inception as developers for DCS. We hope this resolution results in a more stable and optimistic future for DCS and all 3rd Party Developers.

Best regards

Ron Zambrano
CEO
RAZBAM Simulations, LLC

Eagle Dynamics was compelled to respond shortly after on their Discord found here:

https://discord.com/channels/542985647502393346/543013214485610520/1225540029493936219

04/04/2024 1:18 PM
Following the message published by Ron Zambrano of Razbam Simulations, we believe that it is necessary to rectify some of the unfounded allegations and to reassure the Community that everything is being done to resolve the current situation promptly and for the benefit of all concerned.
 
Without entering into the details of matters that are confidential to the parties, we firmly reject the allegations that the current disagreement between Eagle Dynamics and Razbam Simulations would be as stated by Razbam “due to circumstances completely beyond our control" and that it is "a situation that Razbam Simulations did not seek".
 
On the contrary, the current disagreement is the result of improper actions that have been taken by Razbam Simulations, in breach of its contractual obligations towards our company and of our legally protected IP rights, and for which we are seeking a reasonable and forward-looking commercial outcome rather than entertaining legal claims.
 
We very much regret that Ron Zambrano has decided, without even pre-advising us, to make these disparaging public statements and, more importantly, to take the customers of the Razbam developed aircraft as leverage in the discussions with us. 

Please rest assured, we are addressing the situation with the utmost attention and constructiveness.

Many thanks and kind regards,

Nick Grey

RAZBAM followed with this reply:

https://discord.com/channels/536389125276827660/544501300134543380/1226492074233434182

razbam_prowler — 04/07/2024 4:21 AM
@here 
Dear customers and community
RAZBAM Simulations is actively working with EAGLE DYNAMICS to reach an agreement to resolve our internal dispute and we don't want the discussion that our public declaration has generated to escalate any further. We want to assure you that it has never been nor will it be our intention to abandon our products. We look forward to a prompt and satisfactory resolution, turn the page, and move forward.

Best regards
Ron Zambrano
CEO
RAZBAM Simulations, LLC

This was the last of the official announcements from both management parties.

While both teams have officially been very quiet due to the delicate nature of issues at hand there has been some events that have come up and caused concerns.

Some Anti-Virus programs were picking up a false positive on some DCS DLLs. Sadly it seemed to be worse on some of the RAZBAM modules fueling fears of issues with the modules. This can be solved by adding the DCS install folder to the exceptions for your anti-virus software, this happens from time to time so this was nothing new. 

The M2000 had some issues, including CTDs. This was an accidental merge of some changes one of the developers was working on. Once it was identified the changes were reverted and the issues were solved (although nothing was noted in the changelog at the time). This was not anything related to compatibility with the core game.

June 12th at Midnight the F-15E radar stopped working. While we have internally identified the issue no fix has been presented as of yet. once we have solid news on that we will share that ASAP. Again this had nothing to do with core compatibility but rather something in the coding of the F-15E.

Refunds

While at first, we were maintaining our normal refund rules, we decided to bend a little for those who were frustrated with the issues and how they affected an Early Access Product. We have been giving a store credit for the value of the F-15E when you purchased it. You may open a ticket here: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/ for a refund, but we ask for patience as it may take up to 7-10 business days to process your refund. 

Other modules will not be refunded at this time, all of these are out of Early Access and remain working. It is our commitment that no matter what happens we will do our best to make sure these continue to work into the future. We understand those of you who remember losing the Hawk, this is not something we intend to do again.

Steam refunds are based on the play time of the core game, not the individual module. It is their policy and they handle the refunds. As we understand it, no refunds have been accepted by Valve. All modules continue to work, aside from the current radar issues with the F-15E which we hope will be addressed sooner than later. South Atlantic continues to be updated and as I stated above, the other older modules we plan to make sure they continue to work into the foreseeable future. 

Is ED broke?
No, Eagle Dynamics is very healthy aside from this dispute currently, all other 3rd Parties and the ED development team continue to work and push new and exciting content out to you. 

Is ED pushing things out because they are out of money?
No, most of these recent products have been scheduled for quite some time now, into early last year. The 3rd Party products are based on when they are ready from their own team, although some delays here and there squished some release dates together, nothing has been out of the ordinary except more goodies in a short amount of time. 

How can you keep selling the F-15E or other modules?
Right now we are working within the framework of the legal advice moving forward and not wanting to cause any more riffs or issues. It's a complex process at this point and most likely why it seems to be moving so slowly for everyone. Nothing more can be said about that right now. Sorry.

We cannot comment on any more conspiracy theories than this. This was an unfortunate disagreement that had been going on for some time and finally went public. I can only speak for Eagle Dynamics but I believe both teams want to resolve this as fast as possible and get back to making virtual airplanes. 

The discussion below was the old thread. This new thread may be moderated a little harder, so please be nice to each other, know that all the other customers in here discussing this with you are in the same boat and probably want the same thing. So let's be open to their opinions and concerns and understand they are allowed to have them as much as you are. Anything from any user here without an official tag won't be making any official comments, me and @BIGNEWY will only comment on publically available info as this is a legal matter at the end of the day.

I cannot say enough, on behalf of all of us at Eagle Dynamics, how sorry we are that you are being made, in part by us, to go through this. We are committed to getting this sorted as soon as we can.

Thanks
The ED Team

 

Nice job compiling communications. I want to thank you.

[LorenLuke]

15 minutes ago, macedk said:

Jesus just fix it. Lawyers are havening a field day, The lawyer is the only one saying you need him or her. 
Grown up people with the head in the sand.  
The more you delay whatever outcome, the worse it gets. 
If you are sure and the other side is sure as well. Stalemate. 
But in the grand scheme of things, trust is lost. Right now nobody will buy a Razbam product in fear of being burned. ED, well you need to move better and faster. Why ?, you talk more than you deliver and your timeframe is old school. 
We are waiting too long for too little. 
Free tip, day one of a competitor and you are out. In module making you have been surpassed by many miles. 

I like DCS but it should be better by now. 

'Jesus just fix it.'

Yes, Razbam... please, fix the bugs.

[Oban]

18 minutes ago, macedk said:

Jesus just fix it. Lawyers are havening a field day, The lawyer is the only one saying you need him or her. 
Grown up people with the head in the sand.  
The more you delay whatever outcome, the worse it gets. 
If you are sure and the other side is sure as well. Stalemate. 
But in the grand scheme of things, trust is lost. Right now nobody will buy a Razbam product in fear of being burned. ED, well you need to move better and faster. Why ?, you talk more than you deliver and your timeframe is old school. 
We are waiting too long for too little. 
Free tip, day one of a competitor and you are out. In module making you have been surpassed by many miles. 

I like DCS but it should be better by now. 

LOL, and how many times do you have to be told the same thing?

[Beirut]

47 minutes ago, draconus said:

It's harmful or unsecure to change date? Lol, no. 

 

No answer yet? But you're certain to the point of laughing it off?

 

You're certain changing the date back and forth and back again will have no effect? Not any any Google service like gmail or something else? Not on Spotify or Netflix or any of a dozen other media connections that run on subscriptions? Not on any of the myriad of Microsoft games or services? Not on Steam or any of twenty other game services that require online connections? Not on any of the dozen or so AV services? Not on any program, like DCS, the requires you to check in every so often so the game will run?

 

On all these services and more, you're certain, to the point of laughter, that changing the date back and forth and back again will have no adverse effect? If you're that certain, great. But please explain your expertise so that we may understand it as well as you and be comfortable making these changes.