No more easy kills felas ))))

[Kaktus29]

With Combined Arms coming as i have always hoped (because AI is we all know stupid in all games not just DCS but everywhere we look) things will be very very different i think.

 

I can't imagine jumping in A-10 and within minutes start blasting my maverics one after another at tanks.. first of all, you need to find those tanks.. So you need recon, after that you need to be directed to the battlefield by AWACs or JointStar system, .. and then somehow have a successful SEAD mission, .. and here is my major point.. IF we -human players can control- SAMs systems such as active and passive systems i can't see the humans in planes can survive for long))) If you turn all your systems off, and just passivelly observing with optical systems, infrared systems, IIR systems, .. woow, .. those planes will fall like crap)) and i will be happy for that because too much have people started to believe SAMs are nothing but a "road bump"))

 

The problem becomes with training, if you have some serious dudes playing with SAMs and are good at positioning and tempting baits (imagine Mig-21 bating an F-16 straight into SA-15 or Buk system kill zone?))) sweeet ))) .. I love you DCS )) ..

 

Multi Play will be one hell of a slaughter zone, .. i would like to imagine it goes like this:

 

It starts at let say 3:00 in the morning, before the start you can re-position your forces (airplanes in airfields, SAMs, radar systems, ships, etc.. where you want-within the limits of your territory of course) after that the game begins, .. and obviously you know nothing where the enemy is, .. of course you can start initiating attacks on infrastructure-roads, bridges, enemy arms depots(if you know where they are), airfields etc.. or you can start doing the job properly by first sending recon flights coupled with CAP to get air superiority first and all the time there is already a GROUND FORCE war happening where commanders are sending tank divisions, recon divisions on the ground to capture certain key "Victory" points etc..

 

With all this i have one big problem.. WHO decides who will take the prestiges role of Commander, General, Major.. don't get me wrong, i would love to be a pilot blasting thanks, or fighter pilot blasting those who blast my guys on the ground, or tank operator blasting stuff on the ground or SAM operator blasting CAS and CAP flights off the air.. but to be the one who manages all, and re-directs is of course the highest achievement that MUST go to the best virtual general there is..

 

If you give the role of the commander to some noob i can imagine the slaughter that will happen in the virtual world.. )))

 

There should be a ranking of some sort, where your kills, losses somehow add up and with it the improvement in RANK, .. so slowly you can get to be a general, also people under your command can give "recommendation"-give you +, or -, ... as a sign of approval with your orders during MP. on the server you would get all this info and then teams would form up, .. and people would be able to join one team or the other.. you can even "BUY" a commander or a pilot if you will.. DCS can make a whole other bussiness out of this and should take this opportunity not to miss it to other third party devs..

 

Imagine a rooster pool, where you decide which pilots, tank operators, SAM operators you wanna have in your team, .. and if that guy doesn't want to be in your team, ..well, how about 50 $ per month sound ? .. You will say, but why would you buy someone, whats the point if you play for fun, you will loose money, right? ..Not neccessito my friends.. The winner of the weekly game would get 60% of money generated by traffic to the MultiPlayer server where there would be commercial adds etc.. how much money that would be would in the end determine the urge to buy someone and for how much..

 

The fierce competition in this MP that would develop through time i think will create such virtual pilots/operators/tankist beasts that can fly stuff and blow shit up that i think even the US pilots would be afraid to join in this virtual world and test their skills.. Competition will breed new tactics, methods, and strategies.. omg, DCS don't miss this up, .. you can increase your revenue by 1000% if you manage to implement this MP part of the game.. and its mostly service oriented, no need to create new engine or whatever, its mostly internet based work, just hire some web-server company to get into it.. and we shall put you on the pedestal that you rightfully deserve!!!!

Edited July 7, 2012 by Kaktus29

[3instein]

+1

Sounds good to me. :thumbup:

[HiJack]

I think CAS missions will be awesome after CA releases. You will find the frontline with your friendlies and then will start to work with JTAC and looking for targets of opportunity. So finding the targets I think will be most the same but as you say humanly controlled SAM systems may be a new challenge to master. For sure it will be awesome! :D

 

EDIT: God first post Kaktus!

 

(HJ)

[Mohamengina]

One thing that really bores me with DCS world at the moment is a lack of P vs P maps going around online. Shooting lifeless ground targets controlled by basic computer intelligence gets old and boring very fast and people seem reluctant to host P vs P matches online with just CAS and AI controlled ground units. Hopefully CA changes all of this and now every server will have a red team and blue team facing off against each other.

 

One of my main concerns though is how easy it will be to change teams. Too easy and you can pop in and see where and what the enemy is doing. Too hard and you won't be able to team up with your friends easily making the game a frustrating experience. I think ideally there needs to be an allowance of one team swap when you join a server which expires after using it for one hour.

[BIGNEWY]

this is going to be great, with harder to hit targets !

 

I am also looking forward to HARM missile's being in the simulator, just hope the SAM drivers know not to turn the radar on to early :) :)

[159th_Viper]

You will find the frontline with your friendlies and then will start to work with JTAC and looking for targets of opportunity.......

 

Or is it the frontline? Are you not 5 seconds away from being broadsided and having the stuffing knocked out of you six ways from Sunday?

 

:D

 

It's dynamic and fluid - no more 'Shooting Fish in a Barrel' :thumbup:

[HiJack]

Not nessesary the frontline no, but then you know when you find yourself at the main office looking for a new aircraft :P There should be a log of downed aircrafts and the locations in the briefing witch updates as we play the mission so new pilots can make an assessment of the situation.

 

(HJ)

[djembe]

DCS:CA will give many possibilities to recreate very interesting missions.

 

Because now control ground units will be made with DCS:CA, we will save a lot of work editing the missions.

AI is we all know stupid in all games not just DCS but everywhere we look

This is why I not interest in a dynamic campaign...

What I really want is a SAVE button for multiplayer game.

With this function and DCS:CA, make a log and real campaign will be easy.

Edited July 7, 2012 by djembe

[TurboHog]

Yes, CA is hopefully going to make the battlefield a new challenge for both pilots and ground commanders. No more stupid AI, but a thinking, moving, flanking enemy.

 

This is going to require a lot more practice to stay alive in my shark, hog or fishbed when it arrives. (especially the last one is going to be difficult :joystick:)!

 

But I don't want to see a ranking system, actually. Some personal stats would be nice but it should be limited to a realistic flightlog telling you how many flighthours (day/night), landings, refuelings, kills, launches etc. you have.

 

From Battlefield 3 I know how stats and ranks ruin a game. The teamplay that was once the unique thing about Battlefield was replaced by selfish and stat hungry people.

[Kaktus29]

super awesome hard work ...

 

the whole thing is elevated tactically and strategically, yes, recon is needed but how do you send it in such a way that is not blown to pieces, .. also knowing there will be tactics involved the whole air-to-air battles are not about shooting planes down but denying them airspace.. as in real life.

 

a Combat Air Patrol for instance will have to have nerves of steel to not deviate more than 15 miles from the waypoints he is on since more than that will mess up his fuel-range and also might put him in danger from SAM traps... There will be a need of dancing on the frontline with all kind of elements of Air power for the first hours of battle, .. yes, enemy air suppresion through air superiority mission is necessary but knowing if you hunt the enemy air into enemy land you will get it by SAM's..

 

Also, HARM is far from some magical weapon that will get rid of SAMs))) Turning active sensors off makes SAM's basically invisible until you reach the optical -IR range and scan the area by "hand" and hope you see him before he sees you-doubt that will happen)..

 

Also, SAMs will move from one location to another so that will also upset the tactical play a bit, not to mention if the devs develop realistic "fake transponders" which simulate the Hz-frequency of the origin units radar sensor and acts as a beacon for HARM it will mostly be decoy that HARMs will be hitting.. while the SAM's wait miles infront of those decoys to fry your ass as you fire those HARMs))..

 

 

About teams, yes, of course, you shouldn't be able just to move from one team one minute to another one! ) .. I think there should be like a "contract" you sign which makes it impossible to be in another team until the "battle" is over(battle should last for 12 hours-involving as i said in first post : repositioning of forces according to strategy, tactical bias, then in real time starting all kind of sorties-recon, jamming, awacs, air-superiority, hopefully successful SEAD missions and even more importantly figuring where enemy ground forces ARE and where they are heading.. and then orchestrating the whole ensemble of planes and what not to stop them and making sure your guys reach their objective .. Weapons and ammo should be limited so it should be a tough decision to decide what to destroy and where.. if you arm your planes to strike at 3 airfields even though you are not sure or have recon there are any planes there (we all know Crimea is full of airfields and its up to commanders to decide whether to spread the planes across all airfield to minimize catastrophic loss in an event of runway destruction or place then in 1-2 airfields and guard them more effectivelly while decoying the enemy with all other "empty airfields") ..

 

But purchasing good quality pilots and commanders that are proven should add the flavor, and contracts would be impossible to break(you sign with your nick, code of the game you get when you purchase the game etc.. so basically its your ID).. if you want out of the contract well, be VERY good and other teams will want you.. but as i said, this is up to the players and teams, as and IF money will be involved this thing will take a life of its own.. who knows we might see a "stock market" where awesome players will quote high and lousy ones will suck down.. and then a battle or two of clusterf*ck proportions for the very high quality guys could start falling down))) hmmm, do i buy now knowing this guy is good and maybe had a bad day, or he really sucks and know it is becoming clear?)) .. i tell you guys this adds a new element of game fun..

 

 

A contract would be lets say 3 games, .. you can't change team, after than you are FREE agent, you can go where they want you.. or it could be for more .. as i said the game dynamics and NEED to WIN (cuz of money reward) would determine how this dynamics develop.. should i say, the free market will decide the price of all this.. the basics of economy of "demand-need" ..

 

we as players should just enjoy and concentrate on developing tactics and strategies of our own to be good and inflict more damage to enemy and control more enemy ground then he does to us..

 

 

DCS the new huuuuge thing after apple ))) i hope))

[112th_Rossi]

I love the idea of the collaborative ground/air missions, but for that we need a lot of players for it to be effective. I'm not sure that we have that yet?

 

Also, the lack of dedicated server software throws a major spanner in the works.

[Stratos]

When you guys talk about HARMS, what plane are you talking about? Cuase AFAIK only SEAD capable human controlled plane in game is the Su25T right? Or I missed something?

[Kaktus29]

yeah i agree, you need alot of players for this.. so there must be an expending of player base if one is to be successful with what has been discussed here.. money reward could get some players that never heard of sims into.. most will not like it, but the BUZZ generated will definately get some new blood in, maybe just enough to fill up most of the machines in the DCS MP world..

 

But even if not alot of players are in, whats most important is the commander position, the one that overseas and makes tactical decisions ,.. with this you alone can make a huuge diference.. for instance telling my stupid AI flying friend to fly with turned off radar, or my beloved SAM to turn of everything and wait for further orders.. and tell him to turn the radar on when there is like 10 planes above him and watch the fireworks afterwards))) ..

 

One step at a time, .. we will get there, of that i'm sure.. people want a real challenge and this is it.. maybe ARMA and BF3 community will start defecting.. there must be a strategy how to do this, .. war is everywhere, in DCS devs teams and also in getting market share, we all need to do our best to steal that blood from other platforms--- why? Because DCS platform i know fur sure is BETTER in all aspects! .. and that money reward must be implemented somehow, that will be the new thing that nobody else has.. DCS will be number 1 server full all the time team)) ... i hope, i really do..

Edited July 7, 2012 by Kaktus29

[159th_Viper]

When you guys talk about HARMS, what plane are you talking about? Cuase AFAIK only SEAD capable human controlled plane in game is the Su25T right? Or I missed something?

 

Correct.

 

T-Toad armed with Kh-25MPU's and Kh-58's respectively.

[BIGNEWY]

When you guys talk about HARMS, what plane are you talking about? Cuase AFAIK only SEAD capable human controlled plane in game is the Su25T right? Or I missed something?

 

But also with the other 3rd party aircraft on the way . . .

 

it will be fun and games for all, exciting times

[Mohamengina]

yeah i agree, you need alot of players for this.. so there must be an expending of player base if one is to be successful with what has been discussed here.. money reward could get some players that never heard of sims into.. most will not like it, but the BUZZ generated will definately get some new blood in, maybe just enough to fill up most of the machines in the DCS MP world..

 

But even if not alot of players are in, whats most important is the commander position, the one that overseas and makes tactical decisions ,.. with this you alone can make a huuge diference.. for instance telling my stupid AI flying friend to fly with turned off radar, or my beloved SAM to turn of everything and wait for further orders.. and tell him to turn the radar on when there is like 10 planes above him and watch the fireworks afterwards))) ..

 

One step at a time, .. we will get there, of that i'm sure.. people want a real challenge and this is it.. maybe ARMA and BF3 community will start defecting.. there must be a strategy how to do this, .. war is everywhere, in DCS devs teams and also in getting market share, we all need to do our best to steal that blood from other platforms--- why? Because DCS platform i know fur sure is BETTER in all aspects! .. and that money reward must be implemented somehow, that will be the new thing that nobody else has.. DCS will be number 1 server full all the time team)) ... i hope, i really do..

 

Why do I always read your voice with a thick Russian accent and classical music playing in the background. Well Said.

[redfish]

for instance telling my stupid AI flying friend to fly with turned off radar, or my beloved SAM to turn of everything and wait for further orders.. and tell him to turn the radar on when there is like 10 planes above him and watch the fireworks afterwards))) ..

 

You do know that you could only do this ambush once. If the other flyers know where the trap is located, all you have done is identify yourself as a set of target coordinates. The next SEAD mission or artillery fire mission will be assigned to your coordinates. Or a recon team is enroute to your last AO to lase or adjust artillery fire on your position.

 

I do agree with general talk of needs player numbers, what is the ideal minimum players in a combined arms match? 20 people? 10 red team? 10 blue team?

[tusler]

Yes, Running a SAM sting op will be fun...until those pesky airplane drivers find your position...:helpsmilie:

I hoope we can climb out of the vehicle and run after we take down 1 or 2 airplanes cause that mobile SAM launcher is not going to go fast enough:music_whistling:

 

Imagine swatting a Hornets nest with one of those bug zappers that look like a tennis racket...ok now imagine those Hornets are A10C's :cry:

[PlainSight]

Majority of SEAD related work will be done by UCAVs and stealth fighters. Anyone doing initial sead with the A10c, deserves to be shot down.

[Slayer]

The game needs better server side controls and/or dedicated server for all this to work. Similar to Battlefield and Arma or griefers will ruin all the fun of it very quickly if MP isn't tweaked a lot. Waiting for months for a servman update or some such online play will be killed off by then.

 

ED is making a huge leap forward with this project I hope they really invest some time into keeping the hacks and griefers in check.

 

Items that need addressing:

 

1) Team balance

2) Prevent switching vehicles too fast

3) Zombie players of same IP on the other team reporting positions of enemy forces.

4) Auto kick/ban for teamkillers and or destroying own assets like warehouses

5) Player enabled voting to kick the ones that grief people. IE vehicle stealing, blocking runways and taxiways, damaging own runways etc etc. ( like in arma when your teamate shoots you in the leg to be a jerk but didn't KIA you so no kick)

 

and the list goes on but you get the point.....

[Sceptre]

The game needs better server side controls and/or dedicated server for all this to work. Similar to Battlefield and Arma or griefers will ruin all the fun of it very quickly if MP isn't tweaked a lot. Waiting for months for a servman update or some such online play will be killed off by then.

 

ED is making a huge leap forward with this project I hope they really invest some time into keeping the hacks and griefers in check.

 

Items that need addressing:

 

1) Team balance

2) Prevent switching vehicles too fast

3) Zombie players of same IP on the other team reporting positions of enemy forces.

4) Auto kick/ban for teamkillers and or destroying own assets like warehouses

5) Player enabled voting to kick the ones that grief people. IE vehicle stealing, blocking runways and taxiways, damaging own runways etc etc. ( like in arma when your teamate shoots you in the leg to be a jerk but didn't KIA you so no kick)

 

and the list goes on but you get the point.....

 

Yeah I had an experience with an Arma 2 griefer the other day, everyone voted me as the Apache pilot, and some noob just walked up to the Apache before I could get in and he just shot me in the head:( At least he got banned:D

[Kaktus29]

UCAVs and Stealth illusions..

 

There is no such thing as we will send stealth and all of a sudden you will kill of the SAMs))

 

Just imagine a strategy of defence.. you know an attacker needs to overcome your defence, the defence must be visible, ALWAYS visible in order to destroy it..

 

Remember Yugoslavia '99.. how many SAMs were destroyed? how many tanks? In 3 months of constant bombing NATO achieved 13 killed tanks (out of 500!) .. Serbs hid them well, their only problem was not being armed with modern SAMs..

 

Why do you assume stealth UCAVS won't be shot down with enemy Air Superiority missions? Yes, but in this case we can send air fighter to protect the UAV right?.. Again, there is no proof that the fighters won't get into SAMs area.. this could be very good rehearsed trap, .. UCAV searches for SAM that is hidden beyond any way of finding him(if you think thats impossible you know nothing of camoflaouge).. which means air patrols are sent to hit this bug, this is countered by the fighter screen thats protecting this UAV which btw is stupid since then you have a situation where UAV which is disposable-supposedly is protected by a real human pilot in a fighter jet))) whats the effin deal of sending UAV then, just send a normal SEAD mission with real pilots why don't ya))

 

Someone said Once SAM opens fire its over for him..)) says who?..why?.. Lets say a pack of A-10s are flying.. 4 of them.. in formation... willingly or not they fly into a nest.. thats it, if that happens they are dead.. there is no "ohhh that SAM is going to get it.. by whom.. they are all dead in a matter of seconds.. Yes, you can re-direct some other sortie from somewhere else in the vicinity of destroyed planes..but that won't do anything since you don't know the exact location.. 40 sq. miles or radius of 20 miles or similair is too big for you to redirect your imaging device to search.. Basically hitting sams is very hard to achieve, you need an opponent who does not have patientce and who will turn their radars on all the time.. also remember, SAMs use fake transponders all over the place.. and there are fake blow up sam's that emit heat, look exactly the same, emit frequency and reflect same radar cross section as the real thing.. and they cost 2000 USD)) .. you get 200 of those hidden in a sloppy manner-so they can after all be found to those who are seeking)) and really hide the real deals as they are ambushing the SEAD mission and you have yourself a disaster.. remember its all economics..if the SAM missile destroys 5 planes it won.. the system costs much less than 5 full armed fighter planes ..unless your doing it with Fishbed of course..then we are open for discussion..

 

 

NATO got frustrated with serbs preciously because of that, they kept those pre-historic sams "SA-2")) shut and used it only when it was a clear-cut opportunity . so NATO devised a plan.. they hit civilian targets in order to get the enemy to respond by trying to protect those civilian targets.. it was the same tactic that nazis used when they got hit with guerilla fighting style... you can't hit what you can't see, so they attacked civilian villages in order to get partisans out of the woods and into the plains so they could fight them on open.. but partizans knew they cannot win in open combat, so nazis were left with killing civil targets..

 

SAM's is not meant to kill you, but unable you to function with ease.. NATO did not fly below 20000 feet for the whole duration of the campaign for that precise reason. And by that forced it to be less accurate and less effective. If you couple this with modern SAM and tactics and somewhat useful Air force of the defender and to tell you the truth i can't see the enemy attacker surviving for too long.

 

Remember you have limited number of planes, you loose 20 of them thats it.. they are gone, ..one SAM can take out 2-4 planes easy if they are in a kill zone, even if he gets killed later its economic win-win, a plane costs more than the system like tunguska so you can't really claim victory if you destroy SA-15 after he downes a plane -a single plane and its already a failure of the mission.. just to give you a glimpse of how you can hide SAMs especially small ones like SA-15, tunguska types etc.. you drive into a house.. thats it.. the enemy can look with their drones all they want, they will see a perfect village from the top and that it.. after confirmation of enemy air in vicinity it can peak out to take a look, make a dump and blow some planes out.. and go back..

 

BTW, UAVs in real life where there is no air superiority are useless.. This works when your enemy has no air force, no armor, no navy, no SAMs, .. basically is in slippers and using 50 years old assault rifle.

 

As a said before, .. too many people actually believe SAMs are nothing but a bump in the road.. In reality they are pretty much the only thing that can make all this air-mumbo-jambo superiority ends looking like a premature ejaculation .. The reason US Air force and US politicians starts pulling their hair and start begging Russia or threatening to stop exporting S-300 to whichever country US will liberate next is for this precise reason.. Its a game changer.. In Vietnam US lost sooo many B-52 bombers and Vietnamis were using old SA-2 from the 50's not 60's or late 60's that USSR had..

 

 

In real life, if SAM cannot be avoided and destroyed easily because of enemy resiliance and patience .. we would see a careful Air Force that would be merely probing and doing recon missions rather than assaulting with 20-50 planes at a time..

 

If one says, yes, its all true, but big BUT, ..if SAM's are passive and ultra playing it safe than whats the point, they will not defend the target.. yes its true, but you don't know that.. you see, flying in that plane and thinking.. wtf, i could as well be going straight into a sam trap..this creates enormous problems with military planners and they hate it absolutely..

 

Thats why US command always follows the pattern of : First wave-tomahawk destruction of bridges, C&C, military baracks, actually the first wave is just blowing shit up and causing damage and also psychological pressure.. it is neccessary in order to insult the enemy and make him angry and TURN ALL his sensor so we can finally target something we really need to destroy.. because without this.. there is no Second Wave-SEAD, or Third Wave-tactical target destruction coupled with army formation destruction for which you need to do close up and not 5000 miles away with a tomahawk)..

 

So, in a game arena.. i see the better team winning, it won't matter if you are attacker or defender, only those that will know how to tease, deceive and make the opponent feel safe and sure of his plan while yours is hidden and disguised ..only those will win.. But to say ha.. no way, SAMs will win, or Air power will win.. i don't think so.. like in the real world.. it depends on many things.. but its mostly training and actual state of force on the ground-if attacker has 200 planes at disposal and defender 2 sams and 5 fighter jets than yeah i think we can be sure who will win and who will loose..for that you don't need a raptor to tip the balance ))) So i would like to see balanced out MP.. But with some flexibility..so commander can decide based on the teams strategy what would be better, .. more fighter jets, more CAS and SAMs.. maybe an amphibious ship in exchange for those 8 CAS planes?.. hmmm.... decisions decisions..

[Wolfie]

I really want to see DCS get better. Their planes are fantastic, but we need to get the same amount of realism on the ground. CA's a decent start, but we have far, far to go. So I can hide behind that big red barn on the hill... with the Tunguska!

[Pyroflash]

In real life, if SAM cannot be avoided and destroyed easily because of enemy resiliance and patience ..

 

In real life, both teams have SAMs, and Western IADS is no joke.

 

The other important factor (that you also neglected to mention) in planning a flight is the summation and integration of accurate intelligence in the strategic planning. I can guarantee you that the day a leader sends his forces out to battle without at least a semi-accurate picture of the current situation is the day that he gets blindsided by it.

 

So yes, SAMs are a legitimate threat, no one ever claimed that they weren't, however they are but a piece in the puzzle. They are by no means capable of singlehandedly achieving air superiority. The main thing to consider though is that they are a DEFENSIVE system. They are incapable of any aggressive force action, and cannot press an offensive like other units in the order of battle can. So while they are useful, they are really no more of a game-changer than any other key system in a war, including air power.

[GGTharos]

Real air-forces have defeated real SAM barriers. It's more like 'this SAM barrier mumbo-jumbo' in reality. The recon is done with Rivet Joints and other ESM-equipped aircraft before the strike ever arrives, not to mention 'the obvious' such as knowing the OOB of the land forces in position via HUMINT, SATINT, Joint Starts or whatever other sources you have.

 

In reality, you'll have 100 ARMs already in the air, waiting for you to turn that radar on. They're not going to be launched when you turn that radar on, they will be launched /before/ you do it, so that when the package arrives, you'll turn on that radar and feel the rain come down.

 

Or, perhaps you'll think you're being sneaky and stay passive ... so then you'll find things around you exploding all over the place because the opposing air has overflown you at 20000' or around you at NOE altitudes where your passive sensors aren't going to be very effective. So then you turn on your radar, and all you see is a bunch of retreating bandits out of range.

 

The only SAMs that were not destroyed because of 'resilience and patience' also never accomplished much. They shot down a couple of planes out of a thousand sorties. Sounds like the SEAD was rather effective.

 

In real life, if SAM cannot be avoided and destroyed easily because of enemy resiliance and patience .. we would see a careful Air Force that would be merely probing and doing recon missions rather than assaulting with 20-50 planes at a time..