DCS SA342 Gazelle Project

[Pikey]

What communication strategy are we talking about here, maybe I missed something?

Me for example, the ED staff, VEAO many people who got annoyed by the constant critcism and nitpicking... Everybody was happy to change the communication strategy. I'm not saying everybody is happy about that, just some people on the other side of the fence.

 

I think there is a language thing, you aren't understanding me, Shagrat, so I i have to explain this to you. I said very clearly, "Consistent approach to communication". By this I mean when developers blow hot and cold, one minute videos of very complete appearing material or statements with release brackets, the next moment nothing for long periods and release brackets consigned to history. Consistency means that people can have their expectations set appropriately. Not knowing anything builds frustration as you can see in some other forums.

 

I read that you said that you and ED and VEAO get anjnoyed at criticism and i'm very puzzled as to why you think any of it is directed at you or how you are a spokesperson for their feelings. I read recently that Ells wanted criticism. Please remove yourself from the feeling that this is personal, for some reason you have delegated yourself as a knight-protector by proxy! It's not going to earn you medals, this is business :). No product will ever be without criticism, its a fundamental point of a free market and how to conduct business.

 

Communication is a two way process. Customers aren't making up the pictures they keep seeing on Facebook and forums. If a developer wants to show us videos and media then they must expect questions, it's simple. They have the option to not do it. If they want to create interest in their products they need to stand up to the same public scrutiny that they initially flaunted their wares in front of. If a developer isn't able to do that, they need to be consistent and say nothing and not show development work being really close as it will be interpreted in the worst way possible. A picture paints a thousand words... of which you have no control of what they are as a developer!

 

We even have one developer studio playing 'guessing games', as if it's funny.

 

One consistent approach would be to say nothing. That is consistent. It's advantage is that it has no expectation to wreck and is a starting point. Another example...ED's new weekly cadence....greatly recieved and very engaging with it's customer base. Thats been consistent. Wags...talked about NTTR build up videos - that was consistent, then stopped it and said so, and set new expectations. Consistent (I personally noticed and appreciated it). Another strategy was VEAO not discussing 'in project progress' but discussing some aspects...actually not a great example but at least they consistently communicated to their customers and they've been honest and upfront lately which stopped plenty of questions about certain things... But...examples of not consistent would be to say that a release is Soon or a product is nearly ready and then expect the customer base to be OK with that...for their own interpretations of what is 'soon'.

 

But... Make a video of something flying....and say its Q1 release....then miss the release weekend of the last week in Q1 and not post anything. Thats going to build some frustration. When we deal with ED size delays everyone has in the back of their minds....years, not weeks because that's what we are used to.

[Dingo_Bob]

So much entitlement in this thread all of a sudden, get a grip,

 

The last 4 years have been great, the whole team at Polychop have been brilliant and as promised from day one they will deliver a fully fledged module and from what I can see they have done just that,

 

I love they fact that now the finish line is in sight for them they can start to tease with posts to get us going and stuff like the "we know something you don't know" type posts & threads are brilliant and add to the hype & tension waiting for release

 

I say well done guys and hats off to you for what looks like will be a very popular module

[Jacks]

I agree that the Polychop team have been brilliant and my hat goes off to Oliver, Pat, Sven and Bryan. I am looking forward to testing what they have produced and will be happy if it is only a fraction of the quality shown in the screenshots and recent videos.

 

The guys at Polychop should be encouraged by this lively debate as it shows that there is a great deal of interest in their work and a high level of anticipation surrounding the gazelles release. :thumbup:

Edited March 25, 2016 by Jacks

[gospadin]

as promised from day one they will deliver a fully fledged module and from what I can see they have done just that,

 

I wish Polychop the best, and will most likely buy their module on day 1 at full retail price.

 

That being said, you and I have wildly different definitions of delivering a module. I've seen too many efforts post cool videos only to disappear in a puff of smoke.

 

Delivered = I can buy it and download it with functioning systems and a reasonably-close-to-reality flight model.

[microvax]

Guys, plox, honestly, there is a group for the Bo105 on FB. There are pretty much weekly updates on BO105.

 

I am hyped as well, and I want to fly it, but well, it takes as long as it takes. :)

[iLOVEwindmills]

Good post Pikey, I think it pretty much gets to the core of why frustration springs up occassionally. The problem is that there's no real community manager who's job it is to communicate between devs and fans. Brings news from the devs to the people, and filters out the main concerns of the community and sends it to the devs.

 

When you don't have someone to do that as a main occupation, you get this sketchy on/off again communication since it really just depends on a dev having free time + desire to spend time on the forums after work.

 

I think calling a desire for regular communication entitlement is strange though. There's really no reason not to keep your community updated, if anything its opportunity for constant free marketting and creating hype, meaning more sales in the end. It's missed opportunities really.

[Raven68]

Delivered = I can buy it and download it with functioning systems and a reasonably-close-to-reality flight model.

 

My definition as well. If a customer does not have the ability to purchase and play then it's not delivered.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Raven68

[rrohde]

Good post Pikey, I think it pretty much gets to the core of why frustration springs up occassionally. The problem is that there's no real community manager who's job it is to communicate between devs and fans. Brings news from the devs to the people, and filters out the main concerns of the community and sends it to the devs.

 

When you don't have someone to do that as a main occupation, you get this sketchy on/off again communication since it really just depends on a dev having free time + desire to spend time on the forums after work.

 

I think calling a desire for regular communication entitlement is strange though. There's really no reason not to keep your community updated, if anything its opportunity for constant free marketting and creating hype, meaning more sales in the end. It's missed opportunities really.

 

+1

Points well made.

[Dingo_Bob]

My definition as well. If a customer does not have the ability to purchase and play then it's not delivered.

 

No one ever said delivered read my post again it says "will deliver"

 

Anyway, not arguing, we've all had a taste of the sugar and want more to keep the buzz going

[Raven68]

No one ever said delivered read my post again it says "will deliver"

 

Anyway, not arguing, we've all had a taste of the sugar and want more to keep the buzz going

 

the whole team at Polychop have been brilliant and as promised from day one they will deliver a fully fledged module and from what I can see they have done just that

 

I'm sorry I misread it, but to me it implies that they have. :) I will agree that the sugar was tasty and I need more to satisfy my fix! :D

[unclejacko]

I don't think the wait will be too much longer. I remember other developers getting this far and then having to wait on other things. If I recall correctly the Mirage 2000 (or maybe another module) was this close and then they sent it to ED and were waiting on them. So it could very well be that they aren't saying anything because they don't want to blame someone and potentially burn a bridge down. Most teams don't have that many people so they would rather spend time working on getting the module ready then replying to each of our threads. Just speculating based on historical events in the DCS world.

 

Its seems like they are showing videos of it starting up and flying. So we know it works. Hopefully we'll see more videos soon. Personally, I would love to see the flight manual if they are done working on it. It seems like it has a interesting navigation module that I'd love to learn about.

 

Having been a DCS flier since 2011, I can assure you this is normal. The excitement is good, but patience is good as well.

[LNR212]

guys please...

 

Polychop are a group of 3+1, nearly working 24/7 to bring you a new standard of detail and dynamics. besides that, they have to go to work. and they have their contracts with ED. so better to work on the module, than reading tons of posts here... right?

 

im not allowed to give you insider informations, but give some respect to the developers and stay calm. it is coming soon™

 

and believe me, the wait is worth it :thumbup:

Edited March 26, 2016 by LNR212

[CrimsonGhost]

guys please...

 

Polychop are a group of 3+1, nearly working 24/7 to bring you a new standard of detail and dynamics. besides that, they have to go to work. and they have their contracts with ED. so better to work on the module, than reading tons of posts here... right?

 

im not allowed to give you insider informations, but give some respect to the developers and stay calm. it is coming soon™

 

and believe me, the wait is worth it :thumbup:

 

Thanks for the info! I have noticed an increase in "hostility" in this and other threads, which is really bad. People need to support the Dev's through both the good and bad times. It seems the world is getting more and more entitled, and we all want the instant gratification. Or maybe I am just getting older. :doh:

[shagrat]

What communication strategy are we talking about here, maybe I missed something?

When there is news as in something really new and/or something finished to show, they show us. If their is just code or a half finished render they won't, as this produced a lot of shitstorm and negativity (mind not criticism!) in the past.

 

I think there is a language thing, you aren't understanding me, Shagrat, so I i have to explain this to you. I said very clearly, "Consistent approach to communication". By this I mean when developers blow hot and cold, one minute videos of very complete appearing material or statements with release brackets, the next moment nothing for long periods and release brackets consigned to history. Consistency means that people can have their expectations set appropriately.

See above. Consistent approach that you can rely on, just not a clockwork timeline with fixed schedule like the evening TV news.

I know what you say there and yes a lot of people would like to see it going back to that, like we had it in the beginning.

 

But a smaller part of the community worked hard to force the current policy...

 

I read that you said that you and ED and VEAO get anjnoyed at criticism and i'm very puzzled as to why you think any of it is directed at you or how you are a spokesperson for their feelings. I read recently that Ells wanted criticism.

Nobody got "annoyed", and we do not talk about "criticism" especially not in the form of constructive criticism or feedback.

 

What forced this change was aggressive and offensive rant and hate at specific individuals that made some developers quit. And that was ultimately a loss to this community!

 

All constructive, helpful feedback in a mature manner is highly appreciated.

I guess all 3rd Parties and ED will agree on that.

 

Communication is a two way process. Customers aren't making up the pictures they keep seeing on Facebook and forums. If a developer wants to show us videos and media then they must expect questions, it's simple. They have the option to not do it. If they want to create interest in their products they need to stand up to the same public scrutiny that they initially flaunted their wares in front of. If a developer isn't able to do that, they need to be consistent and say nothing and not show development work being really close as it will be interpreted in the worst way possible. A picture paints a thousand words... of which you have no control of what they are as a developer!

Agreed. As far as I understood the policy, this is why the concept focus on "when it's ready" and "when there is something to show". Too much WIP stuff in the past stirred more ranting and hate than feedback, so devs look more careful in what to show and when.

 

We even have one developer studio playing 'guessing games', as if it's funny.

You mean Leathernecks next Aircraft announcement? That was a genius marketing strategy. That thread errupted in lively, yet positive discussions. From what I see the majority in that thread loved it.

 

One consistent approach would be to say nothing. That is consistent. It's advantage is that it has no expectation to wreck and is a starting point. Another example...ED's new weekly cadence....greatly recieved and very engaging with it's customer base. Thats been consistent.

...or as mentioned above "only when there is something finished to show", even "News only on days, I spill my coffee in the morning", would be consistent...

 

Wags...talked about NTTR build up videos - that was consistent, then stopped it and said so, and set new expectations. Consistent (I personally noticed and appreciated it). Another strategy was VEAO not discussing 'in project progress' but discussing some aspects...actually not a great example but at least they consistently communicated to their customers and they've been honest and upfront lately which stopped plenty of questions about certain things... But...examples of not consistent would be to say that a release is Soon or a product is nearly ready and then expect the customer base to be OK with that...for their own interpretations of what is 'soon'.

 

But... Make a video of something flying....and say its Q1 release....then miss the release weekend of the last week in Q1 and not post anything. Thats going to build some frustration. When we deal with ED size delays everyone has in the back of their minds....years, not weeks because that's what we are used to.

So basically it is the old "I hate announced dates, when they are missed" versus "give us a release date now!" discussion.

 

And you don't like certain aspects of the current communication strategy.

 

Well, you can't please everyone...

 

And just to say, I'm not happy with all aspects of the current communication strategy, as well. I simply live with it. ;)

Edited March 26, 2016 by shagrat
I hate autocorrection!

[Jacks]

Have I missed several posts on this thread? Nobody is requesting instant gratification or disrespecting the developers but rather asking for a more constant communication policy which would keep customers better informed. I know of some people that had an advance of pay this weekend so they could buy the gazelle if it was released this weekend as was hinted by the devs (Q1 release) previously with no follow up info or update. Yes this is just a 'game' but it is a game that many love and several on a lower income or no income at all have to scrimp and save to buy more modules for. This may mean that some people have to make small financial sacrifices to buy a module they have been waiting a long time for and so many could view the lack of information or updates as irresponsible.

 

We as consumers are key stakeholders with both high influence and high interest and so no doubt feature very highly in every developers stakeholder analysis and project communication plan. As such I am surprised to see the current communication strategy across DCS. As key stakeholders, yes we do have entitlement as it is our money that will support a product and so I personally (this is my personal opinion) think that developers almost have a 'duty of care' to customers as they will be asking us to part with our hard earned cash which for many could create financial risk. This duty of care takes the form of robust communication as so the customer can make informed financial decisions mentioned above.

 

No one in this thread is demanding a release now but rather asking, quite eloquently in some cases, for ED and developers to consider providing them with more information which as consumers will better allow them to make informed decisions (often financial) and will ultimately make them feel more invested in the product which can only be a benefit to the developers and wider DCS community.

 

I don't think that ED or a dev posting a single line update post once a week is going to delay the development of a product but could yield greater benefits such as greater costumer satisfaction and loyalty. Can you imagine the uproar if Apple used the same communication strategies in the release of the next iPhone?

 

Right, I have my foil hat on so DCS defenders, do your worst! :-)

Edited March 26, 2016 by Jacks

[Pikey]

@Shagrat I think my message got through in the end then, thanks for reading, I do hope developers can see ways to consider how to relay information in a way that causes less disruptive and repetitive posting.

 

@LNR212 Thanks, insider info, eh, can't say more than soon eh? it's nearly ready eh? GJ on oiling the wheels of frustration there bud. If I started telling you about the stuff I know it wouldn't be fair either and would create an absolute shitstorm, so wind it in because flaunting stuff genuinely doesn't help convey the message of a consistent communication.

 

@Polychop, how soon is soon? :)

[shagrat]

Have I missed several posts on this thread? Nobody is requesting instant gratification or disrespecting the developers but rather asking for a more constant communication policy which would keep customers better informed. I know of some people that had an advance of pay this weekend so they could buy the gazelle if it was released this weekend as was hinted by the devs (Q1 release) previously with no follow up info or update. Yes this is just a 'game' but it is a game that many love and several on a lower income or no income at all have to scrimp and save to buy more modules for. This may mean that some people have to make small financial sacrifices to buy a module they have been waiting a long time for and so many could view the lack of information or updates as irresponsible.

 

No one in this thread is demanding a release now but rather asking, quite eloquently in some cases, for ED and developers to consider providing them with more information which as consumers will better allow them to make informed decisions (often financial) and will ultimately make them feel more invested in the product which can only be a benefit to the developers and wider DCS community.

 

I don't think that ED or a dev posting a single line update post once a week is going to delay the development of a product but could yield greater benefits such as greater costumer satisfaction and loyalty. Can you imagine the uproar if Apple used the same communication strategies in the release of the next iPhone?

 

Right, I have my foil hat on so DCS defenders, do your worst! :-)

I was explaining the reason behind the current communication strategy. I did refer to the forum/community (actually a part of it), not to you or this thread in particular.

As you were stressing consistency, I was pointing out that it is consistent, may not optimum, but ok.

 

As for the funny Apple comparison: they actually do! Nobody knows what they present at that Show, if it really is the new phone, or just an OS Upgrade, or even "and now something else we've been working on", yet from time to time an Apple employee "forgets" his new prototype phone in a bar, accidentally...

An information or photo is "leaked" through "well informed informants" (informed by who?)...

 

We all need to learn to accept the "When it's done" policy.

 

I guess neither ED, nor Polychop or any other 3rd Party will change their communication strategy, because of us discussing it in the forums.

 

I personally would love to see it like it was back in the A-10C Beta days, but I doubt it will happen.

Edited March 26, 2016 by shagrat

[BIGNEWY]

Guys really is no need need for this, ED will communicate release dates when it is ready to, and not before. Polychop is hard at work to bring this great module to us, I am also looking forward to it.

 

Devs. testers and 3rd parties are bound by NDA's so wait for official news from ED.

 

An example of communication can be found in SiThSpAwN's signature

[Enduro14]

Ive always been of a mindset if people can't take criticism and they have thin skin, they are in the wrong business. But yes their is a difference between constructive and destructive criticism. I agree the whole don't have time to post a quick update on a forum is BS, we have many devices that connect us and in my opinion communication is very easy these days. It makes me laugh that a video game has such a blackout policy in the communication realm.

[Mr Red]

Any idea when the Gazelle will be out ;-)

[mattebubben]

Any idea when the Gazelle will be out ;-)

 

 

Soon™

[Mr Red]

Soon™

 

Is that shorter than very soon but longer than imminent?

[Johnny Dioxin]

For the little fun fact, door mechanism is the same than on the renault 4 L

 

:p

 

 

I like it! :thumbup:

[joey45]

[Pikey]

No need for all what?

Asking for consistent communication? Is that unreasonable? Or is there something i've missed in this?

Guys really is no need need for this, ED will communicate release dates when it is ready to, and not before. Polychop is hard at work to bring this great module to us, I am also looking forward to it.

 

Devs. testers and 3rd parties are bound by NDA's so wait for official news from ED.

 

An example of communication can be found in SiThSpAwN's signature