We desperately need more eastern bloc aircraft

[Domcho]

Prediction: if ED ever sells any FC3 aircraft souped up to a full PFM + ASM, no matter how much extra work and detail and effort goes into it, if they try to sell it as separate module, the amount of whining and bawling and rage and accusations and complaints etc. that these "upgrades" are not free will be deafening. Here and other places, e.g. reddit. Because we users can be a bunch of irrational cheap entitled brats. :( :( :(

 

Considering the fact that in 1 year (I hope) we will have a pack of 6 aircraft consisting of PFM or 4 (dunno if A-10A and Su-25A are AFM or PFM) without paying any money for this improvement, considering the fact that we are getting Caucasus map further improved, once again for free, and considering that DCS world itself is a free product, I don't think we have the right to complain. If ED would ever develop FC3 to ASM for free, fine. If ED would ever develop FC3 to ASM for extra price, they have every right to do so and we are in no position to complain nor judge them. And the ASM upgrade shouldn't necessarily be mandatory. It should rather be a personal preference for those that are willing to pay the price for upgrading their FC3.

[Kozmyk]

I would happily pay again for "Hi-Fi" versions of the FC3 planes.

I accept that whiners gonna whine but the reality is that such developments cost money so we shouldn't begrudge that.

 

I came back to Eagle Dynamics products Because of DCS:WW2

I had LOMAC and early Flaming Cliffs in the old days. I wasn't really looking for a modern plane combat simulator.

Given the slow progress of WW2 planes and maps, I've gotten absorbed by the jet stuff (gotta do something while I wait ;) ) but I'm still really here for the props.

Edited August 13, 2016 by Kozmyk

[Bearfoot]

considering that DCS world itself is a free product, I don't think we have the right to complain. And the ... upgrade shouldn't necessarily be mandatory. It should rather be a personal preference for those that are willing to pay the price for upgrading their FC3.

 

Oh, I quite agree.

 

100%.

 

The above is not only reasonable, it is how grown-ups see the world.

 

But, unfortunately, we are not all quite that grown-up.

 

The same conditions prevailed with the Starway map (OPTIONAL upgrade to already-complete/working free product), and look at all the fuss and gnashing of teeth by people who thought just because they were "bored" and "tired" of looking at the same old free map, they were entitled to the upgrade to the map without having to pay for all the work. "Entitled" definitely describes the mindset. It was ridiculously brattish. But such is the way of the world.

Edited August 13, 2016 by Bearfoot

[sirscorpion]

Prediction: if ED ever sells any FC3 aircraft souped up to a full PFM + ASM, no matter how much extra work and detail and effort goes into it, if they try to sell it as separate module, the amount of whining and bawling and rage and accusations and complaints etc. that these "upgrades" are not free will be deafening. Here and other places, e.g. reddit. Because we users can be a bunch of irrational cheap entitled brats. :( :( :(

 

The whining wont be an issue if the current FC3 aircraft get upgraded. There will be some but not much, the best way to do it is side grade the "Red aircraft"

 

Lets try a thought experiment what would you say to this price list Vs product.

 

Su27 can be turned into Su-27SM or Su-27P with limited modeling just give it the air to ground armament and R77, modeling will only be some pit systems nothing too major or not done by the S25T. 15USD DLC upgrade FC3 owners, 30 USD for stand alone "you get the Su33+27+SM or P"

 

Exact same thing for the Mig29 which can be turned into the Mig-29SM, which makes it able to use TV and laser guided armament. 15$ USD DLC 30$ for stand alone.

 

If they want to push it further, lets call FC3++, add semi clickable cockpit "main weapon systems clickable" and go for hornet equivalence you will get the Mig-29SMT give it a ground radar, 30 for DLC and 50 standalone Mig29 package.

 

Those are "quick wins" depending on the contract they already have the licence, most of the information on weapon systems and performance is already in game. and adds some content to the FC3 family, with PFM and the new 3d models and pits it works reaaaly well imo. and helps add some red aircraft quickly "1 year~6months" instead of the 4~3 year on full DCS models which are built ground up.

Edited August 13, 2016 by sirscorpion

[Bearfoot]

The whining wont be an issue if the current FC3 aircraft get upgraded. There will be some but not much, the best way to do it is side grade the "Red aircraft"

 

Lets try a thought experiment what would you say to this price list Vs product.

 

...

(snip)

 

 

Again, yes, I agree. You are being entirely rational and mature and reasonable regarding for optional paying for features that are worth it.

 

Again, as the Starway map showed, that does not mean that we, as a community, will react in this way.

[HiJack]

Actual situation:

PFM = Professional Flight Module (include AFM/AFM+)

SFM = Simplified Flight Module

ASM = Advanced System Module

SSM = Simplified System Module

EFM = External Flight Module (as PFM/ASM+/ASM)

SVM = Simplified Vehicle module, can change in the future to PVM (Professional Vehicle model)

 

I hope we get working radios in all aircraft’s; that cannot be impossible to get licensed on eastern aircraft's; or?

 

I would pay for module if we could get parts of the systems simulated with switches, like all power and start up systems, autopilot, gear and flaps, emergency systems etc. Why would it be problematic to get license to do some of the systems? Make a new system module acronym :)

 

HSM = Half System Module

SSM = Semi System Module

QSM = Quasi System Module

WSM = Wannabe System Module

 

;)

[MikeMikeJuliet]

Entitled or not, reasonable or not people will complain.

 

About the short discussion on the sim being "balanced"... I don't think people mean balance in terms of each party having equivalent forces, weapons nor performance. I believe people talk of the lack of "balance" as in "there is no aircraft for the OPFOR at all.

 

Think about it this way: If we were to remove the Su-27/33 from DCS completely. Apart from the MiG-29, what do you use against F-15, F-18, F-14, F-5, Viggen, Typhoon and Mirage? We do need more eastern aircraft, not for the sake of "BLUEFOR is OP, nerf!", but for the sake of there being gameplay in the first place. And YES I do know you can always put any fighter against any other, but western fighters have been designed to fight eastern fighters. And we ARE talking about a simulator here. Not Ace Combat.

 

As for who should do and what, what might be in the works behind the curtains... I do not know. I would of course hope for all kinds of full fledged eastern modules, but even just FC3 level simulation on a couple of other Russian aircraft would bring a lot of fresh air with them.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

Edited August 13, 2016 by MikeMikeJuliet
Typos

[Schmidtfire]

What red aircraft do you use against F-15, F-18, F-14 and possibly a Typhoon? You turn and run or eject. And to have the best chance of survival you do it in an Su-27/33 or Mig-29. But Id love more eastern aircraft to fly, like the Su-15, Su-22, Mig-23 or Mig-25. Good opponents for the F-5E and Viggen.

[Frostie]

Actual situation:

PFM = Professional Flight Module (include AFM/AFM+)

SFM = Simplified Flight Module

ASM = Advanced System Module

SSM = Simplified System Module

EFM = External Flight Module (as PFM/ASM+/ASM)

SVM = Simplified Vehicle module, can change in the future to PVM (Professional Vehicle model)

 

ED:

Ka-50, A-10C, L-39C/ZA, Fw-190D-9, Bf-109, Spitfire Mk IX and TF-51D are PFM/ASM

Su-25T are PFM/SSM

FC-3 Aircrafts:

- F-15C, A-10A, Su-25, Su-27 are PFM/SSM

They are actually called 'standard flight models' and 'standard system modeling', not simplified. Has a totally different meaning.;)

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=122801

[MikeMikeJuliet]

What red aircraft do you use against F-15, F-18, F-14 and possibly a Typhoon? You turn and run or eject. And to have the best chance of survival you do it in an Su-27/33 or Mig-29. But Id love more eastern aircraft to fly, like the Su-15, Su-22, Mig-23 or Mig-25. Good opponents for the F-5E and Viggen.

 

As I just said, it is not about which aircraft would be effective against said western fighters. It is about there not being enought eastern fighters at all, effective or otherwise. I meant it more as a rethorical question than an actual "which would be the optimal choice" kind of question.

 

But I do agree, I'd love to see all of those aircraft. Then we could have a proper cold war Soviet fleet.

[iLOVEwindmills]

It would be good if ED would provide financial or some other kind of assistance, such as assisting with translation and access to documents for developers making a red module.

 

Just to put some kind of incentive towards developing a non western aircraft.

[Angelthunder]

I would definitely buy a fully modeled Mig-25 Foxbat and the FC3 SU-25A Frogfoot,if ED were to make it.I think the reason we currently don't see any fully modeled eastern aircraft is because ED is already busy with the Hornet,DCS World 2.5,and the WWII Map among other things to occupy their time that they cannot focus right now on improving their FC3 Russian combat planes.I'm sure later that ED or another 3rd party will eventually make some fully modeled eastern aircraft.But right now,everyone working in ED is focused on improving DCS World first.

[Flogger23m]

Just look at the MP servers at any given time. Then look at the number of forum users or Steam users. Anyone claiming MP users outnumber SP users can't count.

 

Part of the reason is the poor state of DCS multiplayer from a technical (as far as I can tell) and design direction. Back in FC2 I regularly could host a server, get 4-6 random people on, and we'd be able to play smaller to medium scale missions with minimal lag. In the various DCS World builds I've tried I experience a lot more serious lag. To the point it becomes unplayable.

 

The other reason is likely the direction the game has taken, in which many planes from different eras and capabilities are present. And they don't necessarily fit in a single mission. A mission designed around an F-15C won't play well if you're flying a MIG-21, or even worse, a MIG-15. Point being, finding a server that hosts your modules as well as missions built around them is becoming harder.

 

I'm not trying to dissuade those who like many eras, but I do think the vast array of aircraft generations is making online play for more casual players a bit more difficult.

 

The whining wont be an issue if the current FC3 aircraft get upgraded. There will be some but not much, the best way to do it is side grade the "Red aircraft"

 

Lets try a thought experiment what would you say to this price list Vs product.

 

Su27 can be turned into Su-27SM or Su-27P with limited modeling just give it the air to ground armament and R77, modeling will only be some pit systems nothing too major or not done by the S25T. 15USD DLC upgrade FC3 owners, 30 USD for stand alone "you get the Su33+27+SM or P"

 

Exact same thing for the Mig29 which can be turned into the Mig-29SM, which makes it able to use TV and laser guided armament. 15$ USD DLC 30$ for stand alone.

 

If they want to push it further, lets call FC3++, add semi clickable cockpit "main weapon systems clickable" and go for hornet equivalence you will get the Mig-29SMT give it a ground radar, 30 for DLC and 50 standalone Mig29 package.

 

Those are "quick wins" depending on the contract they already have the licence, most of the information on weapon systems and performance is already in game. and adds some content to the FC3 family, with PFM and the new 3d models and pits it works reaaaly well imo. and helps add some red aircraft quickly "1 year~6months" instead of the 4~3 year on full DCS models which are built ground up.

 

Forget about the advanced systems modelling, I'd buy a FC3 level package of advanced Flankers and Fulcrums. MIG-29K, Su-35S, Su-27SM, MIG-35, MIG-29SMT. FC3 level with some of those planes and I'm in. Ditto for any modern aircraft to. I'd much prefer to spend $20-30 on an FC3 level Super Hornet / F-16C than $60+ on a high fidelity module.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Flogger23m

[MikeMikeJuliet]

I bet there are two kinds of people. Those who find the simpler modelling, but a larger host of aircraft more appealing, and then thise who would like to concentrate on a few aircraft that are fully modelled. From multiplayer standpoint would argue that even a package of soviet aircraft modeled to FC3 standards woukd spice up the gameplay.

 

Such a package would make all those DCS-level aircrafts' players' life more interesting by having real players control aircraft that must now be controlled by AI.

 

I feel it is rather simple to dissmiss additional FC3-level aircraft by those who only do only fly the fully modelled aircraft. I mean I much rather fight against a real player in his/her Foxbat, than an AI.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

[sirscorpion]

I bet there are two kinds of people. Those who find the simpler modelling, but a larger host of aircraft more appealing, and then thise who would like to concentrate on a few aircraft that are fully modelled. From multiplayer standpoint would argue that even a package of soviet aircraft modeled to FC3 standards woukd spice up the gameplay.

 

Such a package would make all those DCS-level aircrafts' players' life more interesting by having real players control aircraft that must now be controlled by AI.

 

I feel it is rather simple to dissmiss additional FC3-level aircraft by those who only do only fly the fully modelled aircraft. I mean I much rather fight against a real player in his/her Foxbat, than an AI.

 

Regards,

MikeMikeJuliet

 

Pretty much, yes we would ALL love more DCS quality aircraft, But between cost and time needed along with "classified" stuff and not using "best estimations" it will take decades to have a good scenario. I would love for something between DCS and FC3 for some platforms, more so the ones that are Very hard to get or even single role aircraft "F-117 for example".

 

And if they are done right then they can be turned into DCS quality at some point Via DLC, Multyplayer it hurting right now, and stopping it simply due taking 6 months to make a 100% hydraulic system, Or 5 months to do an in flight or ground flight test system is simply insane and even Bad for business and the sake of game play.

 

Good radar system, even at 70% fidelity + A good weapon system "which at the moment DCS it self covers nearly all 80% of weapon systems" a Nice flight model and damage model and we are good to go. weapon systems and sensors are the majority of the work.

 

and sure by no means stop the work on DCS only aircraft, those will be premium or DLCS or whatever.

[Evilducky]

You guys are all in here for the Mig29 (which I would take cause I love this plane) but Im still waiting for my DCS level Su-25 so I can use that instead of the A-10C. :D

[MikeMikeJuliet]

That would be brilliant. It might be quite interresting as well.

[gavagai]

I feel it is rather simple to dissmiss additional FC3-level aircraft by those who only do only fly the fully modelled aircraft. I mean I much rather fight against a real player in his/her Foxbat, than an AI.

 

I'm cool with an FC3 level foxbat, but multiplayer is a competitive sport, isn't it? I like a good challenge, but I :doh: when human-controlled Su-27s and F-15s lock me up from 60nm away while I'm parked, waiting for the INS to finish aligning.

[BeastyBaiter]

The Foxbat is absolutely doable, you'd have a hard time finding one outside a public museum. Most were retired about 25 years ago. Hell, it's actually older than our MiG-21.

 

Getting back on track, what I'd like to see is a Mi-24, MiG-23, Su-17 and MiG-29A. None of those are competitive with the Fc3 aircraft, but they are usable against the non-FC3 aircraft in game or being developed. None are subject to state secrets. You can buy them from Russia as a US citizen!

[Frostie]

I like a good challenge, but I :doh: when human-controlled Su-27s and F-15s lock me up from 60nm away while I'm parked, waiting for the INS to finish aligning.

Are you sure about that and you're not mistaking AI aircraft locking you up on the ground, which incidently can be any AI aircraft?

I've never heard of FC3 aircraft locking up aircraft on the ground with radar sounds like you've got some crossed wires there.

I've heard of Mirages locking up airbourne aircraft while they themselves were on the ground.

[Pronin]

I would donate 1000 dollars for MiG-25 or MiG-29A

 

At least Fulcrum is getting PFM soon. Too bad I will stall be call NOOB when I fly it against the new west planes.

[dartuil]

I will pay 1000$ for a full dcs mig-29 or su-27 no matter the variant.

[QuiGon]

I will pay 1000$ for a full dcs mig-29 or su-27 no matter the variant.

 

1000$ would be a bit too much, but if you take a 0 away I would be willing to pay that for such a module :)

[DieHard]

(re: Message #54)

That's actually not bad. Think of it this way. Creating the avionics software for the real thing takes 5-8 years. In effect ED are reverse engineering their code from the observed results of the original design process. It makes sense that it should take a similar amount of time as adjusted by the level of fidelity.

 

AOG

 

How many DCS employed guys working on code full time compared to the real aircraft's original design time-frame envelope and the man-hours comparison to that end?

Edited August 15, 2016 by DieHard

[Fri13]

And if they are done right then they can be turned into DCS quality at some point Via DLC, Multyplayer it hurting right now, and stopping it simply due taking 6 months to make a 100% hydraulic system, Or 5 months to do an in flight or ground flight test system is simply insane and even Bad for business and the sake of game play.

 

I can think that the limitation is in the ED/Fighter Collection licensing. Like would it be possible that there is no change to have a hybrid modeling, or does the "External Flight Model" cover that?

 

Ie. First release aircraft in the AFM flight model with non-clickable cockpit like example Su-25A and Su-25T. Then add some parts clickable like a radio. After that add a radar functions to be clickable. Then add something else to be clickable etc.

 

But quickly we can see that many things in clickable cockpits just ain't needed. Ie. in KA-50 I have like a 99% of the functions in a HOTAS easily organized, and mainly only thing missing is a controls when engine sets on fire. And only things that I need to use mouse really is to change HUD brightness or enable flood lights or adjust formation lights (right side wall panel actually).

 

I can see that A-10C requires clickable cockpit as that is a "clickable office" really. So heavily required to use CDU and MFCD that it isn't fun if you can't click those. But then look something like Mig-21Bis, easily binded to HOTAS (except the right side wall panel switches). Even Mi-8MTv2 or similars are simple to get to HOTAS for normal operations.

 

But I can very well see that if we would have module like AH-64D, there would not be a way to get even the gunner controls binded to HOTAS. Maybe if we would have a CH Fighterstick in both hands, or someone to start modeling the custom made controller for gunner.

 

And how important the full clickable cockpit is for most people, or is it more of a marketed feature over other simulators?