grammaton_feather Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 With supercarrier coming soon bringing a new level of realism, this adds an even greater burden on performance. DCS World needs Vulkan more than ever. ED should really be adding VRworks support as well to bring significant performance boost by utilising Nvidia VR hardware acceleration. VRworks brings a number of VR performance boosting features built into Nvidia GPUs since the 900 series. Eve Valkyrie and Raw Data are two examples of games that received VRworks support after launch. After VRworks was added, the FPS in VR increased significantly (and for Raw Data the graphics could be maxed-out). VR users currently struggle to get their FPS up and have to rely on ASW on Oculus or motion-smoothing on SteamVR. DCS World is pretty-much trying to reach beyond its grasp currently. Higher-fidelity aircraft modules, enhanced DCS terrain and lighting updates running on dual-core and an outdated inefficent DX11 API. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team BIGNEWY Posted April 20, 2020 ED Team Share Posted April 20, 2020 As mentioned by Kate our COO, it is in active development, however it is a massive task. Thanks Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grammaton_feather Posted April 20, 2020 Author Share Posted April 20, 2020 As mentioned by Kate our COO, it is in active development, however it is a massive task. Thanks You know that big space game the name of which I dare not speak? One of the things I love about that development is the roadmap info and progress indicators. I realise ED don't have anywhere near the budget or staff to do that in the same way. There are preview vids many months in advance for supercarrier but it would be nice to see a progress report and gain an insight into the Vulkan work. I also note the progress screenshots from the various module makers. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazex Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 Well - I would say the ED is in the top tier regarding communicating what is happening with road maps etc. The latest ones from Kate are just awesome. And switching rendering engine is not something where you can post screenshots before the bulk of the work is done. I guess there is a lot of refactoring of old code going on now in hundreds of classes and dark corners of the code base. Tedious basement work that takes a lot of time. Before that is done it simply does not work with Vulkan so nothing to show? Ryzen 7800X3D | Gigabyte X670 Aorus Elite AX MB | 32GB 6000Mhz DDR5 | RTX 3080 GPU | Sound BlasterX AE-5 | Windows 11 Pro x64 | Virpil T-50 Throttle | T50 CM2 Grip + WarBRD | VKB T-rudder MK IV | Asus PG279Q 1440p | Valve Index VR | Samsung 980 Pro as system disk and DCS on separate Intel 665P NVME SSD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikey Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 You know that big space game the name of which I dare not speak? One of the things I love about that development is the roadmap info and progress indicators. I realise ED don't have anywhere near the budget or staff to do that in the same way. There are preview vids many months in advance for supercarrier but it would be nice to see a progress report and gain an insight into the Vulkan work. I also note the progress screenshots from the various module makers. :) That big space game that crashes and is barely playable after 11 years with a multi million dollar funding base? Wow, You've just made DCS:World look the best game & simulation ever! Vulkan being touted as a saviour to mankind needs to stop. Versus DX12 it's not producing significant advantage on many FPS platforms, such as Doom, the reviews I saw which were very specific showed almost no gains on Nvidia and the effect was on AMD cards and their terrible drivers. The effect of Vulkan on Xplane is still to be capitalised on, a lot of people having stutter hell and seeing no difference and that was with Nvidia cards after an update from OpenGL, which is substantially inferior to DX11. I think there is a potential there as a system CPU bottlenecked to make VR less stuttery and give some benefits, but at the same time I think people are making this the great Hope and not being realistic. I'd like to see some of the expensive and non realtime calculations take place off the main thread, I still think that would give us way more performance and less burst CPU activity that is the cause of most of the stutters, especially in VR. Even the "infantry simulator" and it's CPU bottlnecking issues have been slightly diluted over the years by pushing AI calcs to another thread or even another server. But A3 got more financial success and it's still nothing amazing in the performance department and DCS is actually making good strides to take something from before the A3 generation to look better than something after the A3 generation. This is quite an achievment actually. Rather than DCS2 we got DCS1 upgraded in front of our eyes. I'm still laughing thinking of the DCS:W 1.2 infantry sprites and what we have now. There is a massive technical overhead to keep a game playable and update it through an entire generation of software. Which is one of the reasons I asked Kate when enough is enough on the old engine and one of the few questions that didn't get answered satisfactorily (she was probably on her third day of answering stupid questions and exhausted) There's a lot of things DCS can do to optimise, but the low hanging fruit has now been picked clean, whatever comes next is now painful, long and costly. ___________________________________________________________________________ SIMPLE SCENERY SAVING * SIMPLE GROUP SAVING * SIMPLE STATIC SAVING * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryzor Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 As mentioned by Kate our COO, it is in active development, however it is a massive task. Thanks A massive task, yes, but this is since december´2017 I remember when was announced the first time. In ED community letter. Nearly 2.5 years ago: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=196539 2.5 years ago has been passed, and we don´t know even if it will be ready in 2020, 2021 or 2022... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charly314159 Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 A massive task, yes, but this is since december´2017 I remember when was announced the first time. In ED community letter. Nearly 2.5 years ago: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=196539 2.5 years ago has been passed, and we don´t know even if it will be ready in 2020, 2021 or 2022... Well done ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimp Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 IMO, Kate seemed optimistic about multi-threading. I don't know the difference between multi-threading & Vulkan, but hopefully either or both can help with performance. i9 9900k @5.1GHz NZXT Kraken |Asus ROG Strix Z390 E-Gaming | Samsung NVMe m.2 970 Evo 1TB | LPX 64GB DDR4 3200MHz EVGA RTX 3090 FTW3 Ultra | Reverb G1 | HOTAS Warthog | Saitek Flight Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimp Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 I do wonder if a developer can tell before hand, by knowing their software architecture, if their software will benefit from Vulkan, or do they have to implement it entirely in order to see if there are benefits? i9 9900k @5.1GHz NZXT Kraken |Asus ROG Strix Z390 E-Gaming | Samsung NVMe m.2 970 Evo 1TB | LPX 64GB DDR4 3200MHz EVGA RTX 3090 FTW3 Ultra | Reverb G1 | HOTAS Warthog | Saitek Flight Pedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darcaem Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 Maybe it is totally unrelated to Vulkan, and it is due to other improvements, but I did feel a massive (and I mean trully massive) improvement when Vulkan was introduced on [that other civil sim who just introduced Vulkan]. Playing on VR with the old Oculus I can now taxi on a busy airport, where I used to suffer terrible FPS, with even higher graphics than before with no sweat :P And DCS used to work way better than [the other sim] for me, so I do have some hype with Vulkan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbak Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 I realize comparing X-Plane and DCS is not a fair comparison. However, using X-Plane's Vulkan Beta I'm getting about a 10% increase in FPS. I see on XP forums that AMD users are getting a larger increase. This may improve as the Beta progresses. I don't think Vulkan is going to be the game changer some are hoping it will be. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]WIN 10, i7 10700, 32GB DDR4, RTX 2080 Super, Crucial 1TB SSD, Samsung EVO 850 500GB SSD, TM Warthog with 10cm extension, TIR5, MFG Crosswind Pedals, Wheelstand Pro, LG 40" 4K TV, Razer Black Widow Ultimate KB[/size] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fang333333 Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 I'm ready to become an Early Access customer for the new Vulkan Module! I already paid for all the other Early Access modules, and honeslty at this point all I care about is actually using DCS and it not being 3 months outdated and glitched to all hell. Vulkan Mod Early Access. Becuase slideshows should be reserved for black and white TV : ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknown Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 I realize comparing X-Plane and DCS is not a fair comparison. However, using X-Plane's Vulkan Beta I'm getting about a 10% increase in FPS. I see on XP forums that AMD users are getting a larger increase. This may improve as the Beta progresses. I don't think Vulkan is going to be the game changer some are hoping it will be. We have a Vulkan API thread in the Chit-Chat section of the forum. Here 2 quotes from my experience with Vulkan and the other Sim. I know, its comparing apples and oranges because of the change from OpenGL to Vulkan and not DirectX11 but for me: Pretty impressive on my side. My little test starting at Hamburg Finkenwerder direction north to the city, turning east to fly along river Elbe with the river and all the buildings and trees, clouds and a little fog visible(200-400ft heigt). OpenGL: 25 on runway, on flight 20-26 Vulkan: 45 on runway, on flight 38 -46 Details, nearly maxed out, only AA is not maxed out, 3440x1440 I didn't tried that yet, just installed the Beta today after seeing Vulkan is live for that sim. I will try it later. EDIT: I tried it with my Rift S, over Hamburg city and less populated countryside of northern germany my fps were locked at 40, some minor drops to 38 or so - i had to watch the framecounter on the mirrored screen. Very impressive if i recall my first VR test a year ago or so, that was very poor performance and stuttering with very reduced details. But now there is nearly no stuttering, every thing feels absolutly smooth, the only glitch i noticed are the water reflections in VR flash and glitch with the head movement(fast). But like others already said, the openGL engine is not a very perfomant to begin with and nobody knows how significant the performance improvement for DCS will be(DX to Vulkan). There is always hope that DCS will profit from the change to Vulkan but in the end all we can do is sit and wait and see for ourselfs when it arrives. Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1, F-4E Phantom II System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor6872 Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 It sure would be nice to see a overhaul of the underlying code behind DCS, though this is a major task. Overly graphics optimization is something that has been long needed and if no major changes come in the next few years the problems will just keep piling up. I have hope, but it is stretched thinly. DRAGON 1-3 | Raptor [i7-7700K OC 5 GHz CPU | 32 GB DDR4 RAM | RTX 2070S GPU w/ 4GB] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grammaton_feather Posted April 20, 2020 Author Share Posted April 20, 2020 Maybe it is totally unrelated to Vulkan, and it is due to other improvements, but I did feel a massive (and I mean trully massive) improvement when Vulkan was introduced on [that other civil sim who just introduced Vulkan]. Playing on VR with the old Oculus I can now taxi on a busy airport, where I used to suffer terrible FPS, with even higher graphics than before with no sweat :P And DCS used to work way better than [the other sim] for me, so I do have some hype with Vulkan. The other sim developer goes into great detail explaining why adding vulkan is much more efficient than his old opengl API. It's an interesting vid on YouTube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Exulte Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 So glad they have the community to keep them informed on the business decisions they should make. They never read press releases or ads, so forum users are essential to keep them ''in the know'' about new technologies. Ads never exaggerate or spin either, so I'm sure all these fancy buzzwords you guys found online will DEFINITELY quintuple performance and cure all forms of virility issues leaving millions of spambots like me unemployed. Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikey Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 Maybe it is totally unrelated to Vulkan, and it is due to other improvements, but I did feel a massive (and I mean trully massive) improvement when Vulkan was introduced on [that other civil sim who just introduced Vulkan]. Playing on VR with the old Oculus I can now taxi on a busy airport, where I used to suffer terrible FPS, with even higher graphics than before with no sweat :P And DCS used to work way better than [the other sim] for me, so I do have some hype with Vulkan. The "other one" used OpenGL rendering. It's archaic, 5 hampsters on amphetamines could power better gfx. OpenGL makes absolutely no effort to find the textures before they are called so it's in a constant state of surprise-shock and has to make new calls for the textures every time. This is another example of people only reading the bottom line improvements on "some" configurations and ignoring that actual reasons why there is an improvement. And it begins a dangerous hype train that becomes uncontrollable and then when the wheel comes off, pitchforks come out and it all goes wrong. ___________________________________________________________________________ SIMPLE SCENERY SAVING * SIMPLE GROUP SAVING * SIMPLE STATIC SAVING * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsky Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 The other sim developer goes into great detail explaining why adding vulkan is much more efficient than his old opengl API. It's an interesting vid on YouTube. If you go beyond youtube, and actually read their dev blog, you will see numerous clear statements from the developers themselves, explaining that Vulkan won't give the "other sim" a gajillion fps boost out of nowhere. Better fps, especially on the older hardware? Yes. Better resource management and less stutters? Yes. VR improvements? Yes. Many months of hard work to make it as stable as the current DX11 implementation? Yes. Massive performance boost? No. Vulkan is not the magic bullet. It's just a tool. Dima | My DCS uploads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebeat Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 Clearly, ED needs to work hard in optimization, not only Vulkan (I will prefer DX12 because DCS runs on Windows, not in Mac/Linux and it will always more optimized than Vulkan) but multi-core optimization and Net coding are two big issues right now. ED can EA whatever awesome plane they want/can but if all we have is a screenshot slider, it is going to negatively impact the sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svsmokey Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 The "other one" used OpenGL rendering. It's archaic, 5 hampsters on amphetamines could power better gfx. OpenGL makes absolutely no effort to find the textures before they are called so it's in a constant state of surprise-shock and has to make new calls for the textures every time. This is another example of people only reading the bottom line improvements on "some" configurations and ignoring that actual reasons why there is an improvement. And it begins a dangerous hype train that becomes uncontrollable and then when the wheel comes off, pitchforks come out and it all goes wrong. https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4276735&postcount=502 9700k @ stock , Aorus Pro Z390 wifi , 32gb 3200 mhz CL16 , 1tb EVO 970 , MSI RX 6800XT Gaming X TRIO , Seasonic Prime 850w Gold , Coolermaster H500m , Noctua NH-D15S , CH Pro throttle and T50CM2/WarBrD base on Foxxmounts , CH pedals , Reverb G2v2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacEwan Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 Honestly, with or without Vulkan, I think an overhaul of the underlying code will improve things drastically. You add Vulkan to that and I would expect to see a more than decent improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkateZilla Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 Vulkan is being developed, VR Works is a shortcut / gimmick to sell nVidia GPUs. 99% of the entire GameWorks Dev Library can be done on AMD GPUs as well, without the need for the GameWorks API. Its there to make it so companies running specifof game engines have easy plugins. ED Codes and Developes their own GFX, Physics and Sound Engines, so theres no need to partake in GameWorks or other Shortcut APIs. Windows 10 Pro, Ryzen 2700X @ 4.6Ghz, 32GB DDR4-3200 GSkill (F4-3200C16D-16GTZR x2), ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate, XFX RX6800XT Merc 310 (RX-68XTALFD9) 3x ASUS VS248HP + Oculus HMD, Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS + MFDs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quekel Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 But Vulkan has been in development since 2017, I understand it takes a lot of time, but when can we expect something? 2020, 2021, 2022.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven (Elysian Angel) Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 IMO, Kate seemed optimistic about multi-threading. I don't know the difference between multi-threading & Vulkan, but hopefully either or both can help with performance. My understanding is extremely limited, but as far as I can tell Vulkan allows developers to "talk" to the GPU directly, instead of having to communicate through the CPU first. It removes a potential bottleneck, but by itself it has nothing to do with multithreading: introducing Vulkan will not magically make DCS multithreaded. Even that "other sim that recently introduced Vulkan" only uses 3 cores. Making DCS use at least 4 cores would be an entirely separate task to complete, and won't magically increase performance just by itself. It depends on what the bottlenecks are... Spoiler Ryzen 9 5900X | 64GB G.Skill TridentZ 3600 | Gigabyte RX6900XT | ASUS ROG Strix X570-E GAMING | Samsung 990Pro 2TB + 960Pro 1TB NMVe | HP Reverb G2 Pro Flight Trainer Puma | VIRPIL MT-50CM2+3 base / CM2 x2 grip with 200 mm S-curve extension + CM3 throttle + CP2/3 + FSSB R3L + VPC Rotor TCS Plus base with SharKa-50 grip mounted on Monstertech MFC-1 | TPR rudder pedals OpenXR | PD 1.0 | 100% render resolution | DCS "HIGH" preset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grammaton_feather Posted April 21, 2020 Author Share Posted April 21, 2020 That big space game that crashes and is barely playable after 11 years with a multi million dollar funding base? Wow, You've just made DCS:World look the best game & simulation ever! Vulkan being touted as a saviour to mankind needs to stop. Versus DX12 it's not producing significant advantage on many FPS platforms, such as Doom, the reviews I saw which were very specific showed almost no gains on Nvidia and the effect was on AMD cards and their terrible drivers. The effect of Vulkan on Xplane is still to be capitalised on, a lot of people having stutter hell and seeing no difference and that was with Nvidia cards after an update from OpenGL, which is substantially inferior to DX11. I think there is a potential there as a system CPU bottlenecked to make VR less stuttery and give some benefits, but at the same time I think people are making this the great Hope and not being realistic. I'd like to see some of the expensive and non realtime calculations take place off the main thread, I still think that would give us way more performance and less burst CPU activity that is the cause of most of the stutters, especially in VR. Even the "infantry simulator" and it's CPU bottlnecking issues have been slightly diluted over the years by pushing AI calcs to another thread or even another server. But A3 got more financial success and it's still nothing amazing in the performance department and DCS is actually making good strides to take something from before the A3 generation to look better than something after the A3 generation. This is quite an achievment actually. Rather than DCS2 we got DCS1 upgraded in front of our eyes. I'm still laughing thinking of the DCS:W 1.2 infantry sprites and what we have now. There is a massive technical overhead to keep a game playable and update it through an entire generation of software. Which is one of the reasons I asked Kate when enough is enough on the old engine and one of the few questions that didn't get answered satisfactorily (she was probably on her third day of answering stupid questions and exhausted) There's a lot of things DCS can do to optimise, but the low hanging fruit has now been picked clean, whatever comes next is now painful, long and costly. Actually it's 9 years for SC and it's groundbreaking on so many levels. Still an Alpha and alphas are normally far less playable. It's very trendy to hate SC and regurgitate endless negative rhetoric. Your statements about Vulkan in regards to that other flight sim and DOOM are also inaccurate. Yes there are games such as DOOM that support Vulkan. Doom doesn't use a full implementation of Vulkan though so there isn't really a performance boost. That other flight sim has definite performance boost from the Vulkan support even though you cite some examples of people not seeing any benefit. I would ask what's wrong with those particular PCs. The developer goes into great detail on why Vulkan brings significant performance boost over openGL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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